Pre-meditated or Spur of the Moment?

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JerseyGirl said:
I worded it poorly. I just mean the money that the church gave them (that you've explained has been collected over time for this type of purpose). Nevertheless, they had to have some type of relationship with the church. Is it the church as a whole (a national contact you would have to make), or the church that they attended that would give them the money?
No, it's not a national contact, it would be someone in their local ward/congregation. And you really don't have to have a relationship with the church, but to be a member of it. Someone that hasn't gone to church in years can still be given money just as much as someone who attends every week.

What is also interesting to note, that I've always heard that help should be sought first from family or government resources and that church funds should be used last. As in this case, they should have asked family for money to cover rent and if that help wasn't available, they should have then used the funds from the church.
 
Jenifred said:
No, it's not a national contact, it would be someone in their local ward/congregation. And you really don't have to have a relationship with the church, but to be a member of it. Someone that hasn't gone to church in years can still be given money just as much as someone who attends every week.

What is also interesting to note, that I've always heard that help should be sought first from family or government resources and that church funds should be used last. As in this case, they should have asked family for money to cover rent and if that help wasn't available, they should have then used the funds from the church.

You know, your post really drives home how desperate Janet and Raven must have been. Both losing their jobs, no source of income, high debts and a new baby . . . Even with Janet getting a job, it would take a long time to recover from a hit like that.
 
Jenifred said:
IMO By 6 months old, the baby should probably be sleeping 12 hours and through the night (or one wake up and then back to sleep after a bottle). Hasn't anyone else left a child sleeping while a quick errand needed to be run?
I have never left my children alone, no. I have wished I could at times, LOL, but have managed to resist.
I have reported a couple we once lived next door to for leaving their children unattended late at night. They would go to a mutual friend and neighbor's house and drink wine and goof off until 2 AM. We were there one night for a different reason and these goofball parents claimed to have a baby monitor with them. Must have been the world's most powerful and smallest baby monitor, LOL.
I called Family Protective Services because what they were doing was neglect and abandonment. It is child endangerment to leave a child alone if they are not old enough to take care of themselves.

My plea: Please wake the baby up and take him or her with you if you must go out late.
It only takes a second for a tragedy to happen. We've all seen it on the news.
 
Jenifred, thank you so much for explaining the situation regarding the money from the church. :)
 
JerseyGirl said:
Jenifred, thank you so much for explaining the situation regarding the money from the church. :)
YW! Just want a clear picture on how this system worked. It probably would have been very quietly done and the whole congregation wouldn't have known it was even taking place. Which makes me wonder how it got out to the press. I'll have to reread that article.

I don't think that this murder was financially motivated though.

And when I was speaking of leaving a baby home, I mean just while you went around the corner to pick up another child at school (15 minutes), not going grocery shopping for an hour or especially not drinking with friends until late into the evening--thanks for calling DPS on those neighbors.
 
golfmom said:
You know, your post really drives home how desperate Janet and Raven must have been. Both losing their jobs, no source of income, high debts and a new baby . . . Even with Janet getting a job, it would take a long time to recover from a hit like that.
.......re-reading this thread............ adding in the info g/m had today on YET another vehicle.........the ( mysteriously burned out ) honda........the monthly payments ( vehicles alone! ) are astounding.....!
 
While most of this information is correct, I'd like to make a couple of corrections.

Firstly, the information about them having received help from the Church most likely came from their landlord, who had received a rent check from the Church. The money isn't given to the individual, to be used at their discretion. A series of checks would be cut to whomever was owed the money, i.e. mortgage lender/landlord, auto lender, utility provider, etc.

This money comes from local funds, which are paid as fast offerings. We've discussed the whole fast offering topic before so I won't digress. If you need further explanation, let me know. Provided that sufficient funds have been received locally, that money is administered on a local level, not by the Church in Utah. In cases where there is a shortage, money is then requested from the Stake (which is the equivalent of an Arch Diocese) and finally from Salt Lake if all local ward and stake funds have been exhausted (however, this rarely happens).

Several people in their ward would have known about their receiving assistance: the Bishop, his two counselors, and the executive secretary (4), the Elder's Quorum President (1), High Priest Group Leader (1), Relief Society President (1), Young Men's President (1), and Ward Mission Leader (1). These people make up the Ward Welfare Committee. If assistance is rendered, these people are aware of it and discuss as a group how to further help the individuals in need.

While it was stated that inactive members can simply request money and receive it, it is not that simple. If someone is not active and not living the teachings of the gospel, they are encouraged to become active. In fact, the Bishop and others would work with them in this process to bring them back to full fellowship. The system is set up to withstand any potential abuse. If the individual is unwilling to make changes in their life, i.e. living the commandments, attending Church, etc., they probably won't receive help for long.

Additionally, in most cases, the individual receiving assistance would be expected to make some sort of contribution in the form of labor in order to continue receiving assistance. This contribution could be cleaning the building, doing yard work around the building, etc. Our welfare system is NOT like that of the US Government. We EXPECT individuals to make a sincere effort to find work, and we will go to great efforts to assist them in this process. In fact, we have employment specialists throughout the Church.


Jenifred said:
YW! Just want a clear picture on how this system worked. It probably would have been very quietly done and the whole congregation wouldn't have known it was even taking place. Which makes me wonder how it got out to the press. I'll have to reread that article.

I don't think that this murder was financially motivated though.

And when I was speaking of leaving a baby home, I mean just while you went around the corner to pick up another child at school (15 minutes), not going grocery shopping for an hour or especially not drinking with friends until late into the evening--thanks for calling DPS on those neighbors.
 
There are obviously difference of opinions among us posters regarding this subject.

I, for one, thought for sure it was a crime of passion. Something made Raven lose it completely that night and he killed Janet. We have speculated maybe she was leaving him or confronted him about the financial mess he put them in. After reading through many of these threads tonight, I may just go over to JG side. Janet may have been a "thorn in his side" and Raven had enough of that. He certainly didn't appear to be very willing to sell his materialistic possessions that he collected over the years. Making lame attempts to post them for sell but never actually selling them. Maybe the material items made Raven who he was, defined him, and he would do anything to keep them. IMO, without her, Raven could be himself and not the pretend mormon husband that thought his family should come before his possessions.
 
As I was sitting here writing my post about how either it was a crime of passion or premeditated and how it could probably go either way. I remembered Raven's ramblings posted the night before on his website. And I think now, that he was probably planning it. If it is true that there were only 3 stab wounds (UNCONFIRMED BTW, who posted that?) it shows me that it was controlled. That the perp knew what he was doing and stopped when the job was finished. I'm thinking that those posts could probably hang him if he were to ever stand trial. How could it just be coincidence that he was writing about starting over the day before his wife was killed? It just seems off that he had finally come to this epiphany and that he's going to make everything better and start over again and then the next evening his wife was killed.

I don't know. I'm just tired of nothing happening and nothing being said. Even if the family was instructed to be silent, I think it's time to say something. Two months is too long to wait. Especially a crime deemed "not random."
 
The primary, (if not only), thing that leads me to believe that this could very well have been planned is all of the back and forth posts about selling his possessions. It is clear to see from Raven's own words that he realized what he had to do to get control of his life, and that he was very conflicted about it. He did not want to sell his stuff, and he flip-flopped in his mind repeatedly and over at least several months. I would give anything to be able to see or hear the thought processes he went through when contemplating what he needed to do to change his life. If the actual murder was not planned or was not committed by Raven, I still believe whole-heartedly that Raven had wondered on more than one occassion what his life would be like without Janet, but also how he could accomplish that without losing either his toys or his son. I shudder at the prospect of him and his mom being in on the embezzlement together, and wonder how far she would be willing to go to help him out. Would she set up a "trust fund" if he asked her to after Janet's death or was the trust fund totally her own idea?

And I totally agree with EI that Raven was a "pretend" Mormon. It almost seems as if he was trying too hard to prove to someone, (maybe even himself), that he is a good Mormon. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but I don't know how someone can be a good person of any faith while expressing the idea that his embezzlement was really no big deal.
 
And I'd like to know why in all of the world would a trust fund be set up by Janet's mother-in-law and in Utah? It just doesn't seem like that would be in a mother-in-law's job description to do. Leave it to Janet's family or Janet's husband. It really seems as if someone saw $$$ and did something to make sure they weren't left out of their cut.
 
Jenifred said:
And I'd like to know why in all of the world would a trust fund be set up by Janet's mother-in-law and in Utah? It just doesn't seem like that would be in a mother-in-law's job description to do. Leave it to Janet's family or Janet's husband. It really seems as if someone saw $$$ and did something to make sure they weren't left out of their cut.
I think you have nailed it here. If Raven and his mother were embezzlement partners (and got caught), they certainly would have been trying to think of a new way to "make money". What an easy way to incur free money from sypathetic people. My wife got murdered, poor me with a baby to take care of, please send money. We've already heard how she pushed the trust fund at the memorial (which, btw, is absolutely mind boggling to me and would make me get up and walk out). It seems this was her own agenda. imo, Raven you pretend to be the grieving spouse and I'll push the feel sorry for you, send money button. It just makes my stomach turn to think this may be the situation.:sick:
 
Jenifred said:
As I was sitting here writing my post about how either it was a crime of passion or premeditated and how it could probably go either way. I remembered Raven's ramblings posted the night before on his website. And I think now, that he was probably planning it. If it is true that there were only 3 stab wounds (UNCONFIRMED BTW, who posted that?) it shows me that it was controlled. That the perp knew what he was doing and stopped when the job was finished. I'm thinking that those posts could probably hang him if he were to ever stand trial. How could it just be coincidence that he was writing about starting over the day before his wife was killed? It just seems off that he had finally come to this epiphany and that he's going to make everything better and start over again and then the next evening his wife was killed.

I don't know. I'm just tired of nothing happening and nothing being said. Even if the family was instructed to be silent, I think it's time to say something. Two months is too long to wait. Especially a crime deemed "not random."
I've heard somewhere that Janet's family is very private and that this whole ordeal has been (of course) horrifying for them to deal with. My perception is that her family is keeping quiet because they are so very private, and they're afraid to say something for fear that Raven would take Kaiden and they'd never see him again. Kaiden is their only living tie to Janet, that has to be very painful for them, as well as very conflicting. If they p*ss him off, they lose Kaiden.
 
LTUlegal said:
I've heard somewhere that Janet's family is very private and that this whole ordeal has been (of course) horrifying for them to deal with. My perception is that her family is keeping quiet because they are so very private, and they're afraid to say something for fear that Raven would take Kaiden and they'd never see him again. Kaiden is their only living tie to Janet, that has to be very painful for them, as well as very conflicting. If they p*ss him off, they lose Kaiden.
...and then on the flip side of this - Raven. I have to believe, or hope, that if in fact Raven is innocent, that he has Durham LE on speed dial...to ask them constantly for updates on who killed his wife and the mother of his son.

I read a legal thriller not too long ago.. The main character was a police detective. And there was one thing that motivated her, even in the worst of times on the job. A Mrs. John Doe. Mrs. Doe's son had been brutally murdered, years ago. The perp was never caught. This detective was the lead on the case. And all of these years later, once a week, Mrs. Doe would call... just to see if there way any news on the case. Not accusingly. Not judgmentally. Just a question. "Any news on my son?"

Raven's wife was murdered. And there's been no arrest in this case. And if Raven is innocent, then surely he agonizes over Janet's death....asking what, why, and who.

So let's hope that as we search, dig, and scramble for information and answers, that Raven, too, is doing the same thing...making that daily or weekly call to LE - "Any news about my wife?"

If not, the silence is indeed deafening.
 
SouthEastSleuth said:
...and then on the flip side of this - Raven. I have to believe, or hope, that if in fact Raven is innocent, that he has Durham LE on speed dial...to ask them constantly for updates on who killed his wife and the mother of his son.

I read a legal thriller not too long ago.. The main character was a police detective. And there was one thing that motivated her, even in the worst of times on the job. A Mrs. John Doe. Mrs. Doe's son had been brutally murdered, years ago. The perp was never caught. This detective was the lead on the case. And all of these years later, once a week, Mrs. Doe would call... just to see if there way any news on the case. Not accusingly. Not judgmentally. Just a question. "Any news on my son?"

Raven's wife was murdered. And there's been no arrest in this case. And if Raven is innocent, then surely he agonizes over Janet's death....asking what, why, and who.

So let's hope that as we search, dig, and scramble for information and answers, that Raven, too, is doing the same thing...making that daily or weekly call to LE - "Any news about my wife?"

If not, the silence is indeed deafening.
Agreed! :clap:
 
LTU...welcome to the forum!

...it's always nice to see a new 'face' on board, i look forwad to reading your posts!

...your "voices for victims", i love that, it's great to have you here ,as we all seek justice for janet.
 
Based on what we know about Raven (and hopefully what Janet's family now knows), if I were them, I'd be suing for custody of the child. Raven isn't fit to raise that child by himself. Neither is his family fit to assist in the rearing of the child. Janet's family would provide the most stable, loving environment. I can just see it now - Raven jumping from job to job, hopping from bed to bed with who knows how many different women while this poor child gets passed around to different family members like a hot potato. I hope her family is seriously considering this. I would do it in a heartbeat.


LTUlegal said:
I've heard somewhere that Janet's family is very private and that this whole ordeal has been (of course) horrifying for them to deal with. My perception is that her family is keeping quiet because they are so very private, and they're afraid to say something for fear that Raven would take Kaiden and they'd never see him again. Kaiden is their only living tie to Janet, that has to be very painful for them, as well as very conflicting. If they p*ss him off, they lose Kaiden.
 
lauriej said:
LTU...welcome to the forum!

...it's always nice to see a new 'face' on board, i look forwad to reading your posts!

...your "voices for victims", i love that, it's great to have you here ,as we all seek justice for janet.
Thanks! Glad to be here! I've read long enough, I thought I should speak up! :)
 
SouthEastSleuth said:
Raven's wife was murdered. And there's been no arrest in this case. And if Raven is innocent, then surely he agonizes over Janet's death....asking what, why, and who.
Unless he already knows the answers to these questions and has been told to :silenced:
 
NCBanker said:
Based on what we know about Raven (and hopefully what Janet's family now knows), if I were them, I'd be suing for custody of the child. Raven isn't fit to raise that child by himself. Neither is his family fit to assist in the rearing of the child. Janet's family would provide the most stable, loving environment. I can just see it now - Raven jumping from job to job, hopping from bed to bed with who knows how many different women while this poor child gets passed around to different family members like a hot potato. I hope her family is seriously considering this. I would do it in a heartbeat.
I totally agree with you NC. Raven hasn't even grown up himself, and probably never will. His family taking care of Kaiden?....omg.....look at his siblings! Who would want Kaiden to turn out like Raven or any of them? Kaiden needs to be raised to grow up just like him Mamma and who best to do that, but her parents!
 

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