Psychological Markers

[Dwntwnslim]

Mo problem. Now you have an Ukrainian Catholic priest, who states "whenever possible". Seems, most time, it isn't possible then. Although, looking closely, this refers to the position of the whole body as in face upwards, body on a E-W axis with the head to the East, the feet to the West. It doesn't refer to posing the body in anyway sideways looking to the East.
And the other one? Wiki is such a thing. Very often, when you really travel to a place and see how the people live or what they do, the Wiki-article, you read has not the faintest similarity with what's really going on. Considering that, this article is not bad, it has a faint similarity. But it doesn't take in consideration, that Islam includes a number of variants or cults in itself, for example Sufis, Wahibi, Kadiri and so on. The same of course in the Shiite camp. And, as I wrote now two times, we are not talking about only one indicator but three. The facing east is only one thing, that makes me thinking in that direction, it would be a failure to ignore the whole picture.
And yes, those bodies were placed about perpendicular to Mecca on a N-S axis.

The same is true of Roman Catholicism.

The other thing was that the bodies were placed on their backs and not placed laying on their right sides which would indicate an Islamic burial.

Facing east as part of burial rituals is not new. It predates recorded history; across world cultures.

(I'm not an expert, but I do study religious history as a hobby).

 

[Dwntwnslim]

There is a WS verified comparative religions expert in the professional posters link. Maybe that person could shed some light on the AC burials?

 

[Peter Brendt]

The same is true of Roman Catholicism.

The other thing was that the bodies were placed on their backs and not placed laying on their right sides which would indicate an Islamic burial.

Facing east as part of burial rituals is not new. It predates recorded history; across world cultures.

(I'm not an expert, but I do study religious history as a hobby).

Well, okay. I've been there and have seen them doing it. So what? And of course, you hang up everything on the facing east alone. How many Christians have you seen be buried without shoes? Just food for thought.
The nasty part of this whole story is, we will in fact never see who had the right idea. Because any idea off the beaten track is not investigated and the beaten track leads to nowhere. Thus, like in the LISK case, we wait till someone gets lucky, till an intended victim escapes (which won't happen in the AC case because that guy is inactive now) or till someone by accident finds new evidence. Which is also unlikely to happen. Given that situation, everyone can guess and counter guess as he wants because neither LE nor anyone here will actually ever catch that guy. Btw, you are aware, the usual career time of serial killers in the whole Western World is measured in decades and that most of them still die from old age?

 

[Peter Brendt]

There is a WS verified comparative religions expert in the professional posters link. Maybe that person could shed some light on the AC burials?

Then be so nice and trigger him, please. I am busy with other things right now and can't invest too much time.

 

[Dwntwnslim]

Well, okay. I've been there and have seen them doing it. So what? And of course, you hang up everything on the facing east alone. How many Christians have you seen be buried without shoes? Just food for thought.
The nasty part of this whole story is, we will in fact never see who had the right idea. Because any idea off the beaten track is not investigated and the beaten track leads to nowhere. Thus, like in the LISK case, we wait till someone gets lucky, till an intended victim escapes (which won't happen in the AC case because that guy is inactive now) or till someone by accident finds new evidence. Which is also unlikely to happen. Given that situation, everyone can guess and counter guess as he wants because neither LE nor anyone here will actually ever catch that guy. Btw, you are aware, the usual career time of serial killers in the whole Western World is measured in decades and that most of them still die from old age?

I do have to correct myself. I was under the mistaken impression that the AC bodies were placed on their backs due to a show I watched last night about the AC murders that depicted them that way.

According to an AC investigator with the last name Phelps, the bodies were placed faced down in water with their heads turned east. It is Phelps' hypothesis that the water the victims were placed in is responsible for orienting their heads facing east due to the fact that the water was moving. How strong would a current have to be to move a head from side to side if their bodies were placed on their stomachs? I can't quite picture that.

Sorry about my mistake!

Thanks for exchanging ideas with me. I always learn a lot from you!

 

[Dwntwnslim]

Then be so nice and trigger him, please. I am busy with other things right now and can't invest too much time.

No problem. Consider it done.

 

[dc20015]

What does everyone think of the cop on tonight's Dark Mind show saying that he believes the bodies weren't intended to face East since the water is not stagnant and bodies could bob around? But, if they bobbed around and changed position how did they all end up equal distances apart. We're not being told everything in the case, but something has to account for the distances apart.

Also: I've been wondering if the AC city and Long Island murders are related, could the theory of a serial killer eventually getting lax and hiding bodies very close to home play into this case. He or they would probably live near the site on Long Island unless it's just another hiding spot. A serial killer making his own graveyard was mentioned in an earlier post, and these two locations seem to be that, IMO.

I did not see the bodies to know exactly what they looked like, nor would I want to, but I would find it unlikely that water rushing in, turning the heads, and leaving them all the exact same way would be somewhat unlikely. However, I do have an issue with the "East" direction. Maybe it wasn't about direction in an E/W way. Maybe he wanted them all facing right or left. Or maybe he's OCD and wanted them all laid out identically or he wanted them laid identically to leave no doubt that the same person/people committed the crime- a signature so to speak, direction not mattering. I know I myself don't think in compass direction. If I were turning something so as to lay a certain way, I'd be thinking in right/left, not E/W/N/S. Just a thought.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I did not see the bodies to know exactly what they looked like, nor would I want to, but I would find it unlikely that water rushing in, turning the heads, and leaving them all the exact same way would be somewhat unlikely. However, I do have an issue with the "East" direction. Maybe it wasn't about direction in an E/W way. Maybe he wanted them all facing right or left. Or maybe he's OCD and wanted them all laid out identically or he wanted them laid identically to leave no doubt that the same person/people committed the crime- a signature so to speak, direction not mattering. I know I myself don't think in compass direction. If I were turning something so as to lay a certain way, I'd be thinking in right/left, not E/W/N/S. Just a thought.

Inches of water only, according to ACPD. So no way, current could have bobbed around the heads anyway. But there are different media reports about how the victims were found. Some say three were found in trenches, one in a kind of hole. Nothing about the direction od the bodies explicitly mentioned, onlt the facing East. And just now, I found on the AMC site, missing shoes AND socks (other, older reports said, they had no shoes but socks. So, back to the drawing board. I hope, I have during the coming night my website uploaded again and get time to look into it a little deeper.

 

[dc20015]

Just thinking...other reasons the bodies could be placed in that way:

-the killer saw someone die traumatically, possibly close to them and possibly during their formative years, and they were posed or fell that way
-the killer was imitating a passage in a book/scene in a movie/photograph/painting, etc. where a body/bodies were posed the same way or in a certain way, kind of like how some people believe the Black Dahlia killer was imitating the Minotaur.
-the killer was sending a message that he hails from the East or was headed East or in that direction however he saw it. And not necessarily The East as in the Orient or even across the sea, but maybe just East of Atlantic City such as NYC, LI, parts of New England, or Eastern Canada.
-the killer just thought they looked good that way..maybe like they were sleeping or something

 

[Peter Brendt]

Just thinking...other reasons the bodies could be placed in that way:

1. the killer saw someone die traumatically, possibly close to them and possibly during their formative years, and they were posed or fell that way

2. the killer was imitating a passage in a book/scene in a movie/photograph/painting, etc. where a body/bodies were posed the same way or in a certain way, kind of like how some people believe the Black Dahlia killer was imitating the Minotaur.

3. the killer was sending a message that he hails from the East or was headed East or in that direction however he saw it. And not necessarily The East as in the Orient or even across the sea, but maybe just East of Atlantic City such as NYC, LI, parts of New England, or Eastern Canada.

4. the killer just thought they looked good that way..maybe like they were sleeping or something

Hi,

I changed the bullets in the quotes to numbers, so it's easier to refer to the points.

About 1. would mean, a child saw a close relative (parent, grandparent, sibling) dead on the belly with the face turned East. But while I think, a single trauma can form a signature, a single trauma rarely forms a serial killer. Serial killers are usually formed over time by abuse in any form PLUS often a singular trauma. And of course, the other possibility to make one a psychopath is always injury to certain regions of the frontal lobe. But not just a single trauma in the formative years. And even more, the "looking East" part is specific on a level, a kid in the formative years probably wouldn't have recognized. How many children, say age six for example would know, where East is and the for example grandmam is looking to the East and not just sideways?

2. The Black Dahlia murder was a single case, the murder of Elisabeth Short. As far as I know, other connections (and a lot guesswork was done back in the days) were never really supported by evidence (even a connection to the Lipstick murders appears possible). However, the whole "Minotaur" thing was basically one time cooked up in Exquisite Body if I remember right (haven't touched that case in years, sorry). I remember the argument was rather flimsy back then, more built for a sensational aspect than really explanations or to connect any form of evidence.
However, that the thing in the Short-murder was basically a literary cry for sales attention doesn't mean, the same idea necessarily is wrong for AC (with the looking East) or Manorville (dismemberment). Since a lot of serial killers, at least higher organized ones, like to study the careers of other earlier serial killers and usuall hit early in that on Jack the Ripper, Manorville could have read for example the Complete Jack or other common compilations about that cases, which also often mention the Rainham Mystery or the Whitehall Mystery.
(I just realize, my personal library will bring me to hell's kitchen if I ever become a suspect)
Anyway, I can easily bring up books that could have influenced Manorville during his self-identification phase, but not one with laying on the belly and looking East comes to my mind. Any ideas? Has anyone read a book where something like that occurred? (And if not, should I maybe write one? The thought gives away, my coffee level is low this morning).

3. Facing East alone without the other details? Lets go doen that road for a moment. This would basically an attention pulling and domination aspect, like he wanted to see them, even post-mortem. Kind of see me and look what I can do combined with disgust of against the dead women or rather, what they symbolize for him.
The problem is, such a mic usually would also come either from year of abuse (from a female adult against a boy-child) together with non-attention issues or from subcultural forming in a wider environment. Now which specifically misogynistic subcultures can we find in AC then?

4.) Well aesthetic reasons then? In a trench, clothed and without shoes? Such a killer would have shown off his very specific sense of aesthetics then earlier and probably also later. So time to look into publications with graphics in that specific setting? Graphic novels maybe?

I admit, while personally having a different opinion, especially your points 2-3 could hold some water. But we would find the books/images or similar ones. So go for it.

 

[shadowraiths]

Serial killers are usually formed over time by abuse in any form PLUS often a singular trauma. And of course, the other possibility to make one a psychopath is always injury to certain regions of the frontal lobe. But not just a single trauma in the formative years.

Hi there, would you please cite research that supports even one of these contentions that you seem to be putting forth as fact? Thanks!

 

[Peter Brendt]

Hi there, would you please cite research that supports even one of these contentions that you seem to be putting forth as fact? Thanks!

Sure, I suggest, you read the Ressler interviews. Also the studies of the Deprtment of Psychology at the Radford University would be an interesting reading. Of course, one could also, kind of short cut, look up the childhood of caught serial killers and add up the numbers. Or do you any serial killer, who was formed by a single trauma?

 

[dc20015]

Hi,

I changed the bullets in the quotes to numbers, so it's easier to refer to the points.

About 1. would mean, a child saw a close relative (parent, grandparent, sibling) dead on the belly with the face turned East. But while I think, a single trauma can form a signature, a single trauma rarely forms a serial killer. Serial killers are usually formed over time by abuse in any form PLUS often a singular trauma. And of course, the other possibility to make one a psychopath is always injury to certain regions of the frontal lobe. But not just a single trauma in the formative years. And even more, the "looking East" part is specific on a level, a kid in the formative years probably wouldn't have recognized. How many children, say age six for example would know, where East is and the for example grandmam is looking to the East and not just sideways?

2. The Black Dahlia murder was a single case, the murder of Elisabeth Short. As far as I know, other connections (and a lot guesswork was done back in the days) were never really supported by evidence (even a connection to the Lipstick murders appears possible). However, the whole "Minotaur" thing was basically one time cooked up in Exquisite Body if I remember right (haven't touched that case in years, sorry). I remember the argument was rather flimsy back then, more built for a sensational aspect than really explanations or to connect any form of evidence.
However, that the thing in the Short-murder was basically a literary cry for sales attention doesn't mean, the same idea necessarily is wrong for AC (with the looking East) or Manorville (dismemberment). Since a lot of serial killers, at least higher organized ones, like to study the careers of other earlier serial killers and usuall hit early in that on Jack the Ripper, Manorville could have read for example the Complete Jack or other common compilations about that cases, which also often mention the Rainham Mystery or the Whitehall Mystery.
(I just realize, my personal library will bring me to hell's kitchen if I ever become a suspect)
Anyway, I can easily bring up books that could have influenced Manorville during his self-identification phase, but not one with laying on the belly and looking East comes to my mind. Any ideas? Has anyone read a book where something like that occurred? (And if not, should I maybe write one? The thought gives away, my coffee level is low this morning).

3. Facing East alone without the other details? Lets go doen that road for a moment. This would basically an attention pulling and domination aspect, like he wanted to see them, even post-mortem. Kind of see me and look what I can do combined with disgust of against the dead women or rather, what they symbolize for him.
The problem is, such a mic usually would also come either from year of abuse (from a female adult against a boy-child) together with non-attention issues or from subcultural forming in a wider environment. Now which specifically misogynistic subcultures can we find in AC then?

4.) Well aesthetic reasons then? In a trench, clothed and without shoes? Such a killer would have shown off his very specific sense of aesthetics then earlier and probably also later. So time to look into publications with graphics in that specific setting? Graphic novels maybe?

I admit, while personally having a different opinion, especially your points 2-3 could hold some water. But we would find the books/images or similar ones. So go for it.

Whoooah. I think you're totally misunderstanding and overanalyzing my post here. There is no "difference of opnion" and there are no points to argue because this is not my opinion or my theory. I was merely throwing out random ideas.

To clarify, I have already stated that I don't necessarily even believe that the killer as an adult was posing the bodies towards the "East". The intention could've been left or right (I don't know which direction is East from that ditch and I don't think in compass direction at all) or he could've just wanted them to all look the same and that happened to be pointing in a particular direction.

I would also agree that no one incident, no matter how terrible, makes a murderer. But that doesn't mean that particular incidents don't color how a person operates or doesn't influence the type of message they may wish to send. And the memory they could be drawing from doesn't even have to be accurate. And if they are imitating a piece of art, that doesn't have to be accurate either and neither does it have to be a well-known artwork (this includes paintins/photos/books/movies/music) or a a particularly well-done piece. Could be some scene in a C-rate movie or in a *advertiser censored* film or photograph.

 

[shadowraiths]

Or do you any serial killer, who was formed by a single trauma?

I do not subscribe to the trauma-based model that Ressler et al puts forth. Primarily due to sample and confirmation biased results that largely rely upon the word of psychopaths.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Whoooah. I think you're totally misunderstanding and overanalyzing my post here. There is no "difference of opnion" and there are no points to argue because this is not my opinion or my theory. I was merely throwing out random ideas.

Rather count the misunderstanding on my wording: I referred to your points in connection with the cases at hand. And, as I wrote, some of them are definitively interesting in that connection. Which is why I jump started so much on them. Get me right here, I enjoy the input.

To clarify, I have already stated that I don't necessarily even believe that the killer as an adult was posing the bodies towards the "East". The intention could've been left or right (I don't know which direction is East from that ditch and I don't think in compass direction at all) or he could've just wanted them to all look the same and that happened to be pointing in a particular direction.

I need some pics from the AC scenes to see, whether it's always left or right or whether east, the way the bodies were found means sometimes left, sometimes right. As in head pointing N or head S sometimes. If nothing else, your point would make sure no detail is left unquestioned. And if it's always left or right, you end up with another valid scenario.

I would also agree that no one incident, no matter how terrible, makes a murderer. But that doesn't mean that particular incidents don't color how a person operates or doesn't influence the type of message they may wish to send. And the memory they could be drawing from doesn't even have to be accurate. And if they are imitating a piece of art, that doesn't have to be accurate either and neither does it have to be a well-known artwork (this includes paintins/photos/books/movies/music) or a a particularly well-done piece. Could be some scene in a C-rate movie or in a *advertiser censored* film or photograph.

But it would be visual, even maybe more based on certain details of that visual image than on the whole thing. Where would we find an expert for C-rate movies or *advertiser censored*?

 

[Peter Brendt]

I do not subscribe to the trauma-based model that Ressler et al puts forth. Primarily due to sample and confirmation biased results that largely rely upon the word of psychopaths.

But you would subscribe on the word of a lot of differently diagnosed criminals, whose stories have as far been corroborated as possible? Would you subscribe on the work of a Universities psychological department then? Or do you know any cases in contradiction with the results and consequences of Ressler? Because that would be the easiest way, if you think, I talk bull, prove me wrong with real cases. You would need of course more than one, like I needed for example in the discussion of the likeliness of more than one SK in one area at one time.
So, here is my invitation to PROVE me wrong!

 

[dc20015]

Rather count the misunderstanding on my wording: I referred to your points in connection with the cases at hand. And, as I wrote, some of them are definitively interesting in that connection. Which is why I jump started so much on them. Get me right here, I enjoy the input.



I need some pics from the AC scenes to see, whether it's always left or right or whether east, the way the bodies were found means sometimes left, sometimes right. As in head pointing N or head S sometimes. If nothing else, your point would make sure no detail is left unquestioned. And if it's always left or right, you end up with another valid scenario.



But it would be visual, even maybe more based on certain details of that visual image than on the whole thing. Where would we find an expert for C-rate movies or *advertiser censored*?

For C-Rate movies, I don't know. Although I've seen enough clunkers via Netflix instant play that I think I'm becoming one. As for *advertiser censored*, I think there are many experts on that....if they'll admit to it. Lol;-)

 

[txsvicki]

I could have sworn that it was said on the show that a body was found face down. I'm pretty sure it was the 911 recording of the woman who was walking with a friend and found the body that led to the other bodies being discovered. If the most recent murder victim was face down and facing east that could have caused some to think of Mecca. It's quite a stretch since who knows why a pschopath does things and several religions have connections to the East. Plus, there's several reasons for shoes being off from some persnickety serial killer having a clean car and not wanting dirt tracked in, being killed in a home, the killer not bothering to put the shoes back on or wanting to touch them, and of course the shoe fetish reason.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I could have sworn that it was said on the show that a body was found face down. I'm pretty sure it was the 911 recording of the woman who was walking with a friend and found the body that led to the other bodies being discovered. If the most recent murder victim was face down and facing east that could have caused some to think of Mecca. It's quite a stretch since who knows why a pschopath does things and several religions have connections to the East. Plus, there's several reasons for shoes being off from some persnickety serial killer having a clean car and not wanting dirt tracked in, being killed in a home, the killer not bothering to put the shoes back on or wanting to touch them, and of course the shoe fetish reason.

Well, as a matter of fact, they wondered why the bodies would look east to the casinos of AC, which as it appears, are also in that direction.
The reasoning "Who knows why a psychopath does things" is in so far invalid, because that's why some people here study the subject since many years. And if you study a thing that long, you get some idea - normally. And of the rest? The shoe fetish reason is a valid theory at least. But then, technically, we would more likely talk about some kind of foot fetish and we would have victims for example with fresh painted toe nails, while the killer keeps the shoes as souvenirs.
The problem is, as long as any theory is, instead of put it to the test, is just mobbed with some kind of carpet-bomb arguments like "it can be something else" and "we don't know anyway", we come to nowhere. Which, since LE often does the very same, is probably the reason why SKs have decade long careers.

 

[dc20015]

I could have sworn that it was said on the show that a body was found face down. I'm pretty sure it was the 911 recording of the woman who was walking with a friend and found the body that led to the other bodies being discovered. If the most recent murder victim was face down and facing east that could have caused some to think of Mecca. It's quite a stretch since who knows why a pschopath does things and several religions have connections to the East. Plus, there's several reasons for shoes being off from some persnickety serial killer having a clean car and not wanting dirt tracked in, being killed in a home, the killer not bothering to put the shoes back on or wanting to touch them, and of course the shoe fetish reason.

If the shoes were removed before death, there could also be a very practical reason. Think about the shoes a prostitute often wears: big boots, stiletto heels. Those things are gonna HURT and leave marks if you get kicked with them. Less of a struggle.