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This reddit was posted by an attorney. It's a somewhat rambling piece, but I've pasted some excerpts below. You might or might not want to read the page before reading the highlights below(?). But I'd recommend skipping most of the questions and comments, as he does not address them anyway. There are a couple of good comments under Part 9 of 9, however.

Excerpts from:
Confused about the GJ?

An indictment is the other way of bringing charges. The prosecutor convenes a grand jury, and they receive a presentation of the facts from the prosecution only. (I'll get into this more later.) The prosecutor then gives the jury pre-selected criminal charges that the prosecutor thinks applies, and the jury votes whether to indict on those charges (a "true bill"), or they vote not to indict (a "no true bill"). Ultimately, however, the decision to actually indict still rests with the prosecutor. I can’t emphasize this enough: ** The grand jury does not issue indictments! ** (The media, so sloppy on this distinction.)

Finally, and most importantly, as I mentioned above, the prosecution selects the charges that the grand jury will vote on. If, for instance, the prosecutor gives the GJ the option to vote for first degree murder, second degree murder, and manslaughter – but the GJ only votes to indict on manslaughter - then the prosecutor has a pretty clear indication that he won’t succeed in obtaining a guilty verdict at trial on the more serious offenses. (Especially, where at trial the prosecution isn't just shooting at an empty net.)

Again, this last piece is super important to understanding the true bill in this case and what happened thereafter.

[Note: There’s also one strategic possibility that I’ll confess I haven’t fully run down: It’s possible that the DA knew they were running up on the statute of limitations (SOL) on the lesser charges. If they were concerned that they couldn’t ever convict the Ramseys for murder, but they could possibly convict them on lesser charges, then they might start the charging process earlier so as to not let the SOL on the lesser charges run out. I need to confirm, but I don’t think the SOL should have been an issue in 1998 (less than 2 years after the murder). They should have had at least a couple more years on the lesser included charges. That, plus the decision not to indict when the GJ true billed the lesser included charges, leads me to believe that’s not what was motivating their decision to convene the GJ in 1998. But like I said, I’ll check this point.]

With all this being said, if you’re solidly RDI/BDI, this decision in 1998 to convene the GJ in the first place is where you should get mad at the DA, not at their decision not to indict. If the investigation was simply too premature to truly move forward productively in 1998, there’s no reason why the DA’s office couldn’t have waited. (Yes, this would have pissed off the BPD & the media – but it’s the DAs job not to capitulate to that pressure & to preserve the best quality, most strategic case possible.)

So we can safely assume that the prosecutor presented the GJ with at least 3 charges against the Ramseys that were more serious offenses than IV(a). These were likely murder or manslaughter (and possibly kidnapping) in their various degrees. The subsection (a) indicates to me that the GJ was probably also presented with 1 or more lesser degree offenses under the "Offenses Involving the Family Relations" Article, but the GJ didn’t true bill those. The GJ was also possibly presented with some complicity and accessory charges numbered V & VI, but the GJ also didn’t true bill those.

Keep in mind, the part about what specific charges I - III might have been are the opinion of one attorney. But they would have no doubt been more serious than IV(a).

HTH
 
Hello all - Didn't know where else to post this on the JonBenet threads so I'll do it here - I am in Europe, and Crime & Investigation channel here is going to show a program on Christmas Day called The Killing of JonBenet: Her Father Speaks followed by one called JonBenet Unanswered, Unsolved

Anyone heard of these programs? I unfortunately do NOT get this channel.... otherwise I would watch and report on these programs.

TIA!


I didn't know about these programmes. I am in the UK.

The one where 'Her Father Speaks' will be full of lies no doubt because JR wouldn't know the truth if it came up and hit him.

I think there's something on TV this Thursday Channel 4 at around 9pm.
 
I'm guessing the TV was perhaps for bedtime movies to help her fall asleep (if there's an outlet there). I don't see an outlet but maybe someone does.

closet-jonbenetroom-page35.gif


77vTzoI.png


Good point about the controllers. We had Mario, Pac-Man, Pitfall, etc. Ah the memories!

From PMPT: Page 82:

"JonBenet's closet was stuffed with clothes. A small TV set with a built-in VCR sat on a shelf inside her closet. Other shelves had dozens of cartoon and Shirley Temple videos. To the right of the closet stood a pageant trophy as tall as the light switch. Another tropny was even taller. There was a floor-to-ceiling Christmas tree in the room too. In her bathroom hung an original pastel, called 'Tea for Two' by a Boulder artist."

Wonder why the NES wasn't mentioned.

(bbm)
They didn't mention it because they probably considered the NES sitting there irrelevant.

When was that first picture taken? Most of the videos have been removed.

And on the table were two glasses.....one with a tea bag.

God this case has so many little and bizarre coincidences.
Thanks, Ambitioned, for the screen caps, and thank you, singularity, for pointing out the differences in the two pics. It looks like to me that after the video tapes were removed (taken into evidence because of search warrants), someone put the NES console in their place on the shelf. CSI's (I don't think) would have done that, and the Ramseys never went back to the hellhole after they left that day. So who would have done that (if it is the console)?
 
I think the Her Father Speaks one will likely be the slightly updated A&E special that re-aired with more from JR (I think - didn't watch it, I just know they re-aired it with that title so you would HOPE they added something) after the Burke/Dr. Phil/CBS special.


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Hello all - Didn't know where else to post this on the JonBenet threads so I'll do it here - I am in Europe, and Crime & Investigation channel here is going to show a program on Christmas Day called The Killing of JonBenet: Her Father Speaks followed by one called JonBenet Unanswered, Unsolved

Anyone heard of these programs? I unfortunately do NOT get this channel.... otherwise I would watch and report on these programs.

TIA!


Niner,

You will get these documentaries in the UK on Virgin, Sky and BT, since they carry the Crime & Investigation channel. The Lifetime channel also runs JonBenet documentaries, most recent on Sunday past called Who Killed JonBenet, so watch out for repeats.

Next up on the More4 Channel is:
The Case of JonBenet S01E1 More4 Channel on Thursday December 22nd at 9 PM.

The Case of JonBenet S01E2 More4 Channel on Friday December 23rd at 9 PM.

Which are worth watching to get a flavor of the CBS BDI Theory.


.
 
This reddit was posted by an attorney.

Just to nitpick, "WhatsaGJ" is the throwaway account of a legal analyst named AtticusWigmore who is IDI and Ramsey apologist. She/he got busted and she/he deleted their prior posts saying they were a legal analyst. Atticus likes to lie and say they are a lawyer with FBI training to support their IDI theories and tear down anyone who is RDI. According to Atticus she/he has had access to all the JB files. When asked to provide creds, she/he refused. Just FYI.

But yes, what you posted was very interesting, thank you! Personally, I think the GJ did the best they could with what they had to work with.
 
Just to nitpick, "WhatsaGJ" is the throwaway account of a legal analyst named AtticusWigmore who is IDI and Ramsey apologist. She/he got busted and she/he deleted their prior posts saying they were a legal analyst. Atticus likes to lie and say they are a lawyer with FBI training to support their IDI theories and tear down anyone who is RDI. According to Atticus she/he has had access to all the JB files. When asked to provide creds, she/he refused. Just FYI.

But yes, what you posted was very interesting, thank you! Personally, I think the GJ did the best they could with what they had to work with.
WOW! That's worth knowing - thanks for the info. I did notice (and thought it was a bit suspicious) that "WhatsaGJ" said, "For context, I’m a lawyer with both a civil and criminal background. I’ve posted on this sub before, but created this account for ID-protecting purposes," in the opening statement. Now that I think about it, don't most in the profession refer to themselves as an "attorney"?

Huge difference between "a lawyer with both a civil and criminal background" and a legal analyst. Also, the user ID "AtticusWigmore" replied to "WhatsaGJ" in this reddit. Lame.
 
WOW! That's worth knowing - thanks for the info. I did notice (and thought it was a bit suspicious) that "WhatsaGJ" said, "For context, I’m a lawyer with both a civil and criminal background. I’ve posted on this sub before, but created this account for ID-protecting purposes," in the opening statement. Now that I think about it, don't most in the profession refer to themselves as an "attorney"?

Huge difference between "a lawyer with both a civil and criminal background" and a legal analyst. Also, the user ID "AtticusWigmore" replied to "WhatsaGJ" in this reddit. Lame.

That's how s/he operates!

This is where s/he cried about being busted:

Litigation Analyst

Atticus also took on swissmiss_76 who is a verified member of /r/lawyers and BDI to boot.

Link (You may have to unhide child comments to see all of it.)

This is where s/he claims to have studied under Fitzgerald's boss.

Atticus would be much more believable if s/he didn't keep saying he had access to all the files regarding JB and studied with the BAU. Not to mention seeing autopsy photos none of us have seen. S/he brings that up all the time to bolster stun gun theory.

All of this doesn't diminish your excellent post in #821 btw.

:yourock:
 
The first one was on ACR site. Since the NES is on the shelf it was probably taken later after the well meaning "cleaning team" came through.
Wow. I had no idea they were also cleaning her room. I thought their main focus on cleaning was in the kitchen area.That is absolutely unacceptable.

The strange thing is the fact the Nintendo is on the floor in the video and all those VHS tapes are back in the closet. Does this mean they were moved again by LE before the video was taken?!? Why is anything being moved?

They completely ruined this case and its no wonder that Mr. "rice already cooked" was flabbergasted by different photos taken of the same room had different items in them.



That makes no sense. If you sign a 100 page contract, the entire contract is the legal document, not only the page you sign.

I don't think that is the reason and perhaps with the new spotlight on the crime the media should start pressing for release of the entire indictment.
Maybe so but the meat of her post was this.....

Specifically that there were 18 pages submitted by the grand jury, 9 concerning each parent. But only 2 per parent, 4 total, were released/signed. So clearly no one but JR and PR was even considered.

I do agree that all of that needs to be released. I don't like defending LW but I believe he is sincere when he says he wants all the GJ stuff released. Its because none of it points to Burke and gives him an arms depot worth of ammo in his coming lawsuit(s).

On the other hand, isn't this a conflict of interest of sorts for LW? Get the GJ stuff released to put BDI to rest but this would just point out the guilt of his other client? I'd like to be a fly on the wall in his office....


(bbm)Thanks, Ambitioned, for the screen caps, and thank you, singularity, for pointing out the differences in the two pics. It looks like to me that after the video tapes were removed (taken into evidence because of search warrants), someone put the NES console in their place on the shelf. CSI's (I don't think) would have done that, and the Ramseys never went back to the hellhole after they left that day. So who would have done that (if it is the console)?

I'd like to see video of JAR's room. Dollars to donuts the stack of videos in the photographs in his room were moved to Jonbenet's closet. I'd also like to know WHO exactly moved this stuff? Victims advocates? John moving videos to JB's closet and to make room for them he put the NES on the floor? THis of course would only be possible if the photos were taken before the video.

As you know, photos were taken at different times. Any possible way we can date that photo? Pre-kidnapping phase, later in the day.....?

Clearly it does not add up although some of the other photos do not either.

I also believe its the NES console but would like to see a higher quality pic to confirm it.
 
That's how s/he operates!

This is where s/he cried about being busted:

Litigation Analyst

Atticus also took on swissmiss_76 who is a verified member of /r/lawyers and BDI to boot.

Link (You may have to unhide child comments to see all of it.)

This is where s/he claims to have studied under Fitzgerald's boss.

Atticus would be much more believable if s/he didn't keep saying he had access to all the files regarding JB and studied with the BAU. Not to mention seeing autopsy photos none of us have seen. S/he brings that up all the time to bolster stun gun theory.

All of this doesn't diminish your excellent post in #821 btw.

:yourock:

Thank you! and Thank YOU for the links! What a hoot! AtticusWigmore aka WhatsaGJ is lucky, I guess. Reddit is more tolerant of multiple IDs than most sites are. So funny to see Atticus exposed like that. (You Rock, too!)
 
Wow. I had no idea they were also cleaning her room. I thought their main focus on cleaning was in the kitchen area.That is absolutely unacceptable.

The strange thing is the fact the Nintendo is on the floor in the video and all those VHS tapes are back in the closet. Does this mean they were moved again by LE before the video was taken?!? Why is anything being moved?

They completely ruined this case and its no wonder that Mr. "rice already cooked" was flabbergasted by different photos taken of the same room had different items in them.



Maybe so but the meat of her post was this.....



I do agree that all of that needs to be released. I don't like defending LW but I believe he is sincere when he says he wants all the GJ stuff released. Its because none of it points to Burke and gives him an arms depot worth of ammo in his coming lawsuit(s).

On the other hand, isn't this a conflict of interest of sorts for LW? Get the GJ stuff released to put BDI to rest but this would just point out the guilt of his other client? I'd like to be a fly on the wall in his office....




I'd like to see video of JAR's room. Dollars to donuts the stack of videos in the photographs in his room were moved to Jonbenet's closet. I'd also like to know WHO exactly moved this stuff? Victims advocates? John moving videos to JB's closet and to make room for them he put the NES on the floor? THis of course would only be possible if the photos were taken before the video.

As you know, photos were taken at different times. Any possible way we can date that photo? Pre-kidnapping phase, later in the day.....?

Clearly it does not add up although some of the other photos do not either.

I also believe its the NES console but would like to see a higher quality pic to confirm it.

Re: Lin's possible conflict of interest wrt the grand jury findings

Your reading of events is very possible (and very interesting!) but he has been vainly calling for the full GJ proceedings to be released since the GJ dismissed, even going nose to nose with Mike Kane on LKL "wanting" their release in 1999-ish IIRC (a fantastic read if you haven't seen the transcript, MK is like DUDE, I will go to court with you and ask for them to be released, let's go). I recall at least one other "promise" that he was going to get the grand jurors together to speak out publicly about how they "didn't" indict the Ramseys before the eventual reveal that they did. And JR himself released a statement asking for the full record to be released at the time it was in the news, obviously hoping it would make him look innocent while knowing it would never happen (the LW strategy). Having watched all the news coverage of that event currently available on Youtube, I can say it almost exclusively focused on the idea that the jury could not decide which parent was responsible. I recall one news report that focused on the idea the Ramseys were covering for a third party and Burke was not mentioned.

The BDI interpretation of the indictments didn't really take root (except with BlueCrab) until this year when CBS promoted the idea (and just to go on the record, I'm one of the few who is still skeptical the indictments mean BDI).

So, while it could be that LW is throwing JR under the bus to save the reputation of his current, more pressing client BR - I judge this is just more of the typical BSing from Woody. He's been saying the same thing for years, confidently knowing it ain't happening. I doubt anything's changed.

And re: the VHS tapes, I don't get why you think they were moved from JAR'S room to JB's?


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There's a stack of VHS tapes on the floor in JAR's room. Just speculating that the movement of tapes could possibly include the tapes in his room. We can never know that until more pics/videos surface.

You may be right that LW(and John) were bluffing about wanting all the GJ info being released. There's one problem with the concept of bluffing.....at some point someone is willing to call your bluff. Then you are in what George Bush liked to call "deep doo doo".
 
I also believe its the NES console but would like to see a higher quality pic to confirm it.

Respectfully cropped by me to address this specifically:

When I first saw the video, there was no doubt in my mind that this was a Nintendo -- but since I re-watched it multiple times, in order for this to be a Nintendo, it would have to be the back of the Nintendo that's shown -- because the black vertical strip (where you plug in the controllers) is on the front-right side of the console, not the front-left (as shown in the video).

Front: http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20120228011352&path-prefix=en
Back: http://www.therem.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/U-027-H-00010-A.jpg

I still lean toward this being a Nintendo, but it was something I hadn't realized initially. If this isn't the back of a Nintendo, then it isn't a Nintendo.
 
Its a NES, Userid. In the video, we're seeing it from the back side(where those wires hook up). The wires are even a mess as they usually are with kids. I was referring to wanting to see a higher quality image of what's stored in the closet with videos gone and what looks to be the NES moved up there.
 
After zooming in on that pic posted above, I have doubts its the NES in the closet. Whatever it is has a bunch of stickers on the top and these aren't seen in the video clearly showing the NES. If its not stickers, something is laying on top of what we think is the NES in the closet. The bottom half is also a different color.

We need some HQ pics/videos and like Veruca Salt, we want it now.....
 
I'm guessing the TV was perhaps for bedtime movies to help her fall asleep (if there's an outlet there). I don't see an outlet but maybe someone does.

closet-jonbenetroom-page35.gif


77vTzoI.png


Good point about the controllers. We had Mario, Pac-Man, Pitfall, etc. Ah the memories!

From PMPT: Page 82:

"JonBenet's closet was stuffed with clothes. A small TV set with a built-in VCR sat on a shelf inside her closet. Other shelves had dozens of cartoon and Shirley Temple videos. To the right of the closet stood a pageant trophy as tall as the light switch. Another tropny was even taller. There was a floor-to-ceiling Christmas tree in the room too. In her bathroom hung an original pastel, called 'Tea for Two' by a Boulder artist."

Wonder why the NES wasn't mentioned.

Aside from the NES and the video tapes, the clothing is different. There was a painting of a shoe tree on the doors of the closet. I know that three sets of closet doors had been painted. I don't know if the 4th set on the far right had been panted so I can't tell if the closet with the red shirt is accurate. There are more changes between the two images.
 
1. Another drinking glass and a knife on the dining room table across from the pineapple and tea glass. I've never heard of this before.

To anyone just now watching that video, when you get to that table...notice exactly where that other glass is.....


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^ Yup, I mentioned this earlier -- it's at JR's seat at the table.
 
If they sat and waited until everyone was asleep, it means they sat there while everyone was awake. :rolls eyes:


Tortoise,
Yup, and what if anyone rose to go downstairs to hit the fridge, play with their toys, or PR to check on JonBenet?

Where does Mr Nasty Intruder hide?

.
 
While none of us believe in a phantom intruder obviously, that's a good point. On holidays many people get up and make them a snack even if they stuffed themselves like fattening hogs earlier in the day. What if John, Patsy, or one of the kids want a turkey sandwich, a helping of dressing/stuffing, a piece of pie, or something?

Has it ever been mentioned if the Ramseys took home a doggy bag from the Whites?
 
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