Questions you'd like answers to...

[Miz Adventure]

John's missing time?

I believe he went out to his car to take JBR's body and put it down in the cellar room where he could later 'find' it.

As it was a kidnapping and his daughter had been 'taken' he probably thought the police would vacate the premises, once the call didn't materialize. Then - later - he could either dump JBR's body somewhere or find her in the house. The Foreign Faction had brought her back dead because the couple had gone against instructions and called the police.

However, they showed no sign of going so John HAD to move his daughter's body before another search was made and her body was found in his car. And hence his missing time.

It seems that FW didn't offer to accompany JR on his search of the house (from top to bottom)as John has stated, but John took Fleet by the arm and said "come with me". He wanted another person to be with him to witness his horror when he found his daughter.

 

[TeaTime]

If he had to wait that many hours for a damn warrant in the murder of a six year old girl just to do a few on site tests to determine TOD, every single person should've been fired on the spot.

Fire exactly who? The warrant has to be drafted and meet the approval of the DA and be signed by a Judge. Unless, of course, you prefer that people work outside of the law and without authority such that anything recovered without a warrant would be inadmissible in court. Just saying.

 

[TeaTime]

John's missing time?

I believe he went out to his car to take JBR's body and put it down in the cellar room where he could later 'find' it.

As it was a kidnapping and his daughter had been 'taken' he probably thought the police would vacate the premises, once the call didn't materialize. Then - later - he could either dump JBR's body somewhere or find her in the house. The Foreign Faction had brought her back dead because the couple had gone against instructions and called the police.

However, they showed no sign of going so John HAD to move his daughter's body before another search was made and her body was found in his car. And hence his missing time.

It seems that FW didn't offer to accompany JR on his search of the house (from top to bottom)as John has stated, but John took Fleet by the arm and said "come with me". He wanted another person to be with him to witness his horror when he found his daughter.

Impossible. There is no way that JR could retrieve a body from the garage and sneak it into the house, carry it all the way to the front of the house and then down into the basement and not one of the many people there see it.

It didn't happen.

The reason FW didn't see the body when he opened the WC door is because it was hidden behind the window screens which were stored there. He only moved it into a position where it would be visible at a glance into the room.

 

[Meara]

John's missing time?

I believe he went out to his car to take JBR's body and put it down in the cellar room where he could later 'find' it.

As it was a kidnapping and his daughter had been 'taken' he probably thought the police would vacate the premises, once the call didn't materialize. Then - later - he could either dump JBR's body somewhere or find her in the house. The Foreign Faction had brought her back dead because the couple had gone against instructions and called the police.

However, they showed no sign of going so John HAD to move his daughter's body before another search was made and her body was found in his car. And hence his missing time.

It seems that FW didn't offer to accompany JR on his search of the house (from top to bottom)as John has stated, but John took Fleet by the arm and said "come with me". He wanted another person to be with him to witness his horror when he found his daughter.

Miz A, TeaTime's right. there's no way JR moved the body from the car to the basement. The devil is in the details.

Look at the floor plan I posted on the last page and you'll see that the only way to even try that move would have been to carry JBR's body down the stairs to the butler's pantry and up the stairs on the other side. That's a long way, most of it past plate glass, where any LEOs searching the yard might have seen him. When he got to the little hallway where the basement door was, he would have had to walk past it to open it, risking being seen from the hall leading to the kitchen.

If we imagine that he waited till the police were gone and Linda Arndt had everyone corralled in the ground floor study, he might not have been seen passing trough the butler's pantry or negotiating the door to the basement, but he could not have risked getting from the garage/mud room to the butler's pantry stairs. He'd have been in the line of sight of anyone with a view of the hall. And even if he had managed to move the body in that way, it wouldn't have taken him an hour and a half to do it.

 

[singularity]

Fire exactly who? The warrant has to be drafted and meet the approval of the DA and be signed by a Judge. Unless, of course, you prefer that people work outside of the law and without authority such that anything recovered without a warrant would be inadmissible in court. Just saying.

Start with the coroner and work your way down the list.

otg already addressed that issue.

Actually, no he didn't. He did, either because he didn't know his own authority or he didn't care enough to use it.

Meyer was told he couldn't examine the body until a search warrant was signed by a judge (this from the DA's office). Here is what Dr. Frederick Zugibe had to say about that in his book Dissecting Death: Secrets of a Medical Examiner:

Coroners and medical examiners have the legal authority to enter a crime scene at any time without a warrant, and that, in fact, it is the essence of their job to take over the body and the scene as quickly as possible, and to oversee the investigation until the corpse is removed from the premises. To bar a coroner from a murder site is not only an outlandish breach of protocol, it is illegal.

​

In fact, this principle was written into Colorado Statutes (CRS 30-10-606) in 2013 to make sure it was understood. Here is the wording from that statute:

Upon arrival of the coroner, law enforcement shall make all reasonable accommodations to allow the coroner to collect time-sensitive information such as body and scene temperature, lividity, and rigor.
​

Meyer waited outside the Ramsey house longer than the time he spent examining her body.

 

[CoreyRocks]

Thanks, DFF. That's it. I'm off to buy it right now.

Is there any way to get these books in print or just kindle? I understand there are 6 of them, 3 in each series.

Do you know how to purchase an actual book?

Thanks in advance.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Is there any way to get these books in print or just kindle? I understand there are 6 of them, 3 in each series.

Do you know how to purchase an actual book?

Thanks in advance.

As far as I know, it's only available on Kindle. But you can also read Kindle books on your phone or computer if you don't have a Kindle
Also, the book I'm talking about by the True Crime Detectives Guild is only one book called Listen Carefully. The six book series is The Craven Silence and I haven't read that yet. I think those are also only available on Kindle.


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[SerenitySprings]

If an IDI, why Christmas?


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[SerenitySprings]

Another question I have is why aren't the 20th anniversary specials even mentioning JR's missing time on the morning of the 26th?


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[DrollForeignFaction]

If an IDI, why Christmas?


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Right? Of all nights to pick, why a major holiday. If this murder was premeditated by the perp why would he pick a day when people are most likely to have guests in the house, stay up late - basically deviate from their daily routine. It's risky.

And then of course Smit's intruder theory argues that the killer laid in wait for hours while the Ramseys were at the Whites'. That means the intruder spent the better part of Christmas day and night hiding under John Andrew's bed and leaving butt prints in rugs instead of being with his family on the biggest family holiday of the year. That was what ruled out John Mark Karr, not that any of the Ramsey investigators bothered to check that before extraditing him. And if anyone remembers the Steven Gigax debacle, the Ramsey investigators never bothered to check his alibi before accusing him of killing JB in one of Tracey's crockumentaries. Like Karr, he was out of state with his family and had sales receipts to prove it. But I guess they couldn't ask him for his alibi since they were too lazy to find him, even though the documentary claimed he had gone "underground" and investigators were desperately searching for him. It took Tricia literally minutes to find him online! In all the time it took for them to research (I use the word loosely) and produce this documentary not one of them stopped to think, "Hey, maybe I should google this guy." As usual you're left wondering, is this Ramsey supporter completely corrupt or incredibly stupid? Or both?


I'm getting OT but that's one of the things that really bothers me about Team Ramsey. It is so blatantly obvious that they have no intention of finding the "real" killer. Because they know there isn't one to find. Instead they seek out nutjobs and unsavory characters they can throw under the bus to deflect the public's attention from the Ramseys, at least momentarily. After all, who seems more like a typical child murderer to the uninformed viewer - pedophile creeps like Gary Oliva or John Mark Karr, or upstanding good Christians John and Patsy?

 

[SerenitySprings]

@DrollForeignFaction

Exactly! And the killer would have had to know that they would be gone for the afternoon and evening. I mean, I don't know about anyone else's traditions, but my family all travels to one house (usually my mom's) and we are there all day. I understand if you are going to my mom's house for the morning and lunch and then moving to my spouse's parent's home for a later in the day Christmas, but you can't just assume that nobody will be there for hours, which would give you enough time to write a ridiculously long and flowery ransom note and have your pick of spaces to assault a child and accidentally kill her and then find a suitable room to dump her. (Which murderers, kidnappers, rapists don't do. They know they have to get the body FAR away so as to have time to cover your tracks and get away.)

It should also be noted that both the housekeeper and the gardener went into the basement regularly and both claimed to not even know of the existence of that wine cellar room. (I learned this by reading "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town" by Lawrence Schiller, which I highly recommend.)


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[Userid]

Hi Userid,

Steve Thomas wondered about the crawl space too but ruled it out after inspecting it and realizing the loose debris inside would have clung to JBR's clothing and hair.

The closet with the inset lock on the door has always interested me - even more so after Kolar's book came out. Why does the title ask who really kidnapped JonBenet and not who really killed her? Is he giving us a clue about Burke tormenting JBR by trapping her in closets and such? Kidnapping doesn't necessarily mean sequestering a person and holding him/her for ransom but refers to any action where a person is prevented from moving freely or made to go somewhere against his/her will. Is Kolar asking who put or trapped JBR in the basement that night? Why does he want us to pay attention to that question first?

I have speculated that JR might have hidden the body in the locked closet and realized he had to relocate it before search dogs were brought in. The closet might not have struck police as suspicious, much as the locked wine cellar didn't, because they were initially focused on possible exits for an intruder. But if JR did hide the body there, he had to relocate it because, while an intruder might have hidden the body there, only a family member could have locked that door. Did he grow agitated in part because he was wondering how he would explain why dogs found cadaver scent in both places?

Fellow poster DeeDee has been adamant that the livor mortis evidence shows that JBR's body wasn't moved after death. However, I think the body could have lay on its back in the closet and been moved to the wine cellar quickly without disturbing livor mortis, especially if it were set enough to resist blanching -- which it would have been by 11:00 AM. Maximum lividity occurs 6 - 12 hours after death.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, if anywhere - just sharing some thoughts I've had.

Hey Meara, thanks so muc about the crawl space info, very interesting.

I also realize that, it appears like the crawl space was only accessible from a panel that was about 4 feet from the ground (like a floating door, if you will).

I also wonder: how the heck didn't JR himself trip over all the clutter when he ran upstairs with the body? Not that it would necessarily prove anything; it just something I can't help but think about.

 

[SerenitySprings]

Hiding the body onsite like the above makes a lot more sense than my theory that JR put the body in the car and was planning on dumping it somewhere. If they needed to "find" the body onsite, putting it in one location in the house and then moving it later to another location in the house is a logical plan.

JBR's medical records (which are summarized nicely in Schiller's book) indicate that she was injured from various falls numerous times and also linked BR's end of bed wetting to when JBR's started.


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[SerenitySprings]

Also, knowing now what indictments were returned by the GJ, it seems like BR commonly hurt JBR and JR & PR didn't do enough to protect her. I'm still not 100% convinced that PR wasn't involved somehow, more so than just by assisting JR with the coverup.


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[kanzz]

Hey Meara, thanks so muc about the crawl space info, very interesting.

I also realize that, it appears like the crawl space was only accessible from a panel that was about 4 feet from the ground (like a floating door, if you will).

I also wonder: how the heck didn't JR himself trip over all the clutter when he ran upstairs with the body? Not that it would necessarily prove anything; it just something I can't help but think about.

Userid - I think this is part of the reason why he carried the body up and away from his body somewhat.. so he could look down to see his way so he didn't trip and fall as he was going upstairs.

 

[Rott Mom]

Please tell me that I'm not losing my mind, but did LE find a dictionary with one of the pages "folded"
down and pointing to the word incest? I don't know what to make of that. Could BR have looked up that word?

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Please tell me that I'm not losing my mind, but did LE find a dictionary with one of the pages "folded"
down and pointing to the word incest? I don't know what to make of that. Could BR have looked up that word?

When we checked the photos from a big manila envelope marked as evidence item #85KKY, I almost fell out of my chair, and Peck inhaled in sharp surprise. A picture showed Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary on a coffee table in the first-floor study, the corner of the lower left-hand page sharply creased and pointing like an arrow to the word incest. Somebody had apparently been looking for a definition of sexual contact between family members.

Steve Thomas, page 263


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[SerenitySprings]

Wow. I had no idea. At least I now know what I'm reading next!


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[DrollForeignFaction]

I always thought it was weird Thomas thought the "incest" photo was significant since his whole theory was that JB wasn't a victim of incest and the injuries came from "corporal cleansing" instead. He released a lot of info about her possible molestation, it made me wonder if he just went with the PDI/not molested scenario because he thought it would be the easiest to prove with the evidence provided.


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[SerenitySprings]

He very well might have, or perhaps once he got away from the influence of all the parties involved he was able to broaden his viewpoint.

Have you ever witnessed a thing that happens with passive-aggressive people where if they are being irritated by someone or something around them, they lash out at the closest most-vulnerable option? Like, let's say that you and I are talking and your 3-year-old is with us and you say something that I disagree with politically. I challenge you on that point and point out all the reasons your argument is wrong. If you are too insecure to challenge me back, you might yell at the child for doing a relatively minor thing. I've seen people yell at dogs or cats for similar reasons. I have seen this a lot in my life because I come from very passive-aggressive people and I am not in any way passive about my aggression.

What if PR caught JR "playing" too rough with JBR and or even flat out attacking her and due to fear of BR she accidentally lashed out at JBR instead.

PR seemed happy with her station in life but there is no way she was pleased that JR worked and traveled all the time, especially when she was home with the kids. Having raised a child with psychopathic traits, I can testify to the fact that I became scared of my child around his eighth year.

According to Schiller's book, the medical records do not indicate sexual abuse. They do, however, show that JBR had many doctor visits for injuries that could have been accidents or could have been due to be attacked. (Black eye here, cheek cut there, swollen nose, and so on.) The records also indicate that JBR suffered from something similar to a diaper rash from the pull-ups she slept in, even at age 6. Someone was interviewed (perhaps a pageant person?) who said BR used to wet the bed but when he stopped, JBR started.

BR was described as a "project" of PR's and once JBR came along and got a little older (after PR's first bout of cancer,) she became PR's main project. BR wet the bed until PR's attention shifted to JBR.

We know that bed wetting can be a sign of sexual abuse, however, perhaps in this case it was more due to anxiety, which is why BR got better once PR was no longer pressuring him to be perfect.


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