RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[ukrberserker23]

Well, I just watched JonBenet's America. Don't know how I missed this movie all these years. It was obvious to me the Ramsey's were lying through their teeth. I had never seen some of the people shown in the video. JR had some colossal cajones to think he could get the Russian Army to search for his daughter. I think that is what they call a Freudian slip. Someone should give JR an Academy Award. Funny that Dr. Beuf actually admitted treating JBR for vaginitis. I can't wait for all this evil family to drop dead.

 

[andreww]

To me, people are relying on DNA and fibre evidence too much in this case. Both prove nothing and could or could not point to the Ramseys or an intruder. I believe the actions of the Ramseys speak far louder than any scientific evidence ever will.

The 911 call was placed at 5:52 AM.

JR stated that the family was going to be taking a 6:30 taxi in order to make a 7:00 flight.

Both Ramseys stated that they awoke between 5:30 & 6:00, yet neither of them took note of the actual time, even though they needed to be out of the house in less than an hour. Note that the 911 call came at 5:52, so it is absolutely preposterous that they say they awoke between 5:30 and 6:00. At the very best it was between 5:30 and 5:45. Oh but wait, Patsy wouldn't have had time to do her makeup and get dressed would she??

Neither of them set the alarm clock? John says he got up first while Patsy slept, and went to shower, yet he never thought to awaken Patsy, knowing there was no alarm set and that they needed to leave within the hour.

Patsy stated that she got dressed and did her makeup (she estimated about a half hour) the did some things in the laundry room (she estimated 5-10 minutes, although she was fairly vague as to what she actually did)

Patsy has already accounted for up to 40 minutes, but if she woke up after 5:30 and made the 911 call at 5:52, how is that possible?

Patsy, even though it is now no more than 45 minutes to departure time, states that she is headed down to make some coffee and breakfast, yet she doesn't wake Burke or Jonbenet who still needs to dress, brush teeth, have something to eat, etc.

After finding the note and checking JBRs room, Patsy never checks on Burke. That would be a mothers immediate reaction I would think.

In her initial statement Patsy says she didn't read the ransom note beyond the point where it says "we have your daughter". She says the only other part she read was the signature SBTC. In her second interview she clearly recalls being at the front door thinking "the note said not to call the police". How could that be?

In the obvious panicked state she was in whilst making the call, she easily recalls the SBTC, even though it supposedly means nothing to her.

John takes a secretive trip to the basement to supposedly look for a point of entry. When he discovers the window unlatched and ajar, he says nothing.

John says he broke the window in the basement when he locked himself out of the house whilst Patsy and the kids were away. Yet Patsy states that several people had keys, including the housekeeper. Why not just call her?

Why wouldn't the window be fixed? Its winter!!! And there have been numerous workmen over there in that period.

They have an expensive security system installed, but after JBR accidentally sets it of, John decides its too loud and says he never used it again.

They are concerned enough about security enough to have an alarm system put in, yet they leave a broken window for six months?

Nobody mentions anything about calling a taxi?

And the 911 call on the 23rd from the Ramsey house? Nothing is ever a coincidence.

In their statements both of them were absolutely oblivious to time at any point during those days. John, a pilot, should have especially been very cognizant of time. IMO, these actions show more guilt than any fibres or DNA ever will!

 

[Aleph]

Wow, great post.

 

[Teresa]

Hi,

I totally agree with everything you said. Doesn't feel right and doesn't make sense to me.

 

[andreww]

Still reading, but another point.

Patsy states numerous time that while she makes the 911 call, John is on his knees reading the note. He then goes to dress and she calls the Whites and Fernies. SO SHE IS STATING JR IS GONE WHEN SHE MAKES THE CALLS.

John on the other hand says he was dressed, gives details of the calls to the Whites and Fernies, and says he greeted the first officer on the scene.

One of them is lying because both details are described vividly by each of them. Patsy even demonstrates how John was on the floor. John gives a description of Patsy's tone during her calls.

People can rehearse lies all they want, but when you don't have actual mental images to anchor them, the story's waiver. IMO all these events are concocted and that's why they don't match. Not sure why the detectives didn't press either of them with the conflicting details of the others story.


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[elannia]

PR called Dr. Beuf's office 3 times on the evening of December 17th, and it was never detrrmined why. That should have been pressed on about(or maybe we dont know) to determine why she made those calls. Along with that the party on the 23rd and the 911 call that was placed. All of this leading up to the death of JB!!!! I just wonder if these issues were resolved and the public just doesn't know

 

[elannia]

It wont let me copy here for some reason, but can someone look at the photos of the Christmas tree at the R's, there are men in the photo and a man sitting in a chair beside the tree. Im just curious of who they are

 

[DeeDee249]

It wont let me copy here for some reason, but can someone look at the photos of the Christmas tree at the R's, there are men in the photo and a man sitting in a chair beside the tree. Im just curious of who they are

I don't recall a photo like that. If you can't copy, can you post a link to it?

 

[elannia]

I don't recall a photo like that. If you can't copy, can you post a link to it?

Im using my phone and not exactly sure how to. I tried but it wouldnt let me... I think I googled jonbenet bathroom pics and I looked at the images and it was one that came up. Look for it if you dont mind and if you can copy it i appreciate it in the photo it shows the Christmas tree and a man in the chair and in the room off of the living room some more men, but I cant tell who it is

 

[DeeDee249]

Im using my phone and not exactly sure how to. I tried but it wouldnt let me... I think I googled jonbenet bathroom pics and I looked at the images and it was one that came up. Look for it if you dont mind and if you can copy it i appreciate it in the photo it shows the Christmas tree and a man in the chair and in the room off of the living room some more men, but I cant tell who it is

Lets try this: http://www.acandyrose.com/AnatomyColdCase054.jpg - I see a "Court TV" imprint on the photo. This may not be on the photo itself, but is a familiar logo that appears in the lower corner of the TV screen. This may be a REPRESENTATION and not an actual photo taken at the house that day. THOSE would be marked "Crime Scene Photo" and probably not allowed to be used in a Court TV show. This may actually be a scene from the TV movie "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town" which was directed by Lawrence Schiller, who authored the book of the same name. JB's body remained under that tree until long after the R friends left and after the Rs themselves left the house. I do not see a body in this photo, and that is why I think it may be a clip/screen capture from the movie. Schiller was granted access to the house to make his sets, and recreated the rooms almost exactly, wallpaper, paint, carpets, etc. He used the exterior of the real house for his film, but made sets for the interior scenes.

 

[elannia]

Lets try this: http://www.acandyrose.com/AnatomyColdCase054.jpg - I see a "Court TV" imprint on the photo. This may be a REPRESENTATION and not an actual photo taken at the house that day. THOSE would be marked "Crime Scene Photo". This may actually be a scene from the TV movie "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town" which was directed by Lawrence Schiller, who authored the book of the same name.

Thanks... I didnt bother to look to see if it was an actual crime scene photo. Yes, it could have been from the movie(which happened to be on during the spring, and I watched it and have been following the case ever since.) I had just started high school when it happened, but now im obsessed. Thanks DeeDee for clarifying for me

 

[andreww]

Funny coincidence. I watched that movie last night on YouTube. Too bad Schiller didn't put as much effort in to getting the facts right as he did to get the sets right. I guess there might not have been as much information available back then as there is today? I kept saying to myself "no that's not right". Nonetheless, an interesting movie.


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[DeeDee249]

Funny coincidence. I watched that movie last night on YouTube. Too bad Schiller didn't put as much effort in to getting the facts right as he did to get the sets right. I guess there might not have been as much information available back then as there is today? I kept saying to myself "no that's not right". Nonetheless, an interesting movie.

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The Rs cooperated with Schiller- they felt he was "sympathetic" to them. That's why he was given access to the house and why his movie has some "inaccuracies".

 

[UKGuy]

The Rs cooperated with Schiller- they felt he was "sympathetic" to them. That's why he was given access to the house and why his movie has some "inaccuracies".

DeeDee249,
BBM: LOL, an understatement surely.

.

 

[questfortrue]

Funny coincidence. I watched that movie last night on YouTube. Too bad Schiller didn't put as much effort in to getting the facts right as he did to get the sets right. I guess there might not have been as much information available back then as there is today? I kept saying to myself "no that's not right". Nonetheless, an interesting movie.

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Schiller is a talented artist, author, film maker. He’s an entertainer. Tricia actually sent Schiller a lengthy email calling him out on the Court TV inaccuracies. Schiller pushed blame off on Court TV editing. There are also plenty of inaccuracies in PMPT. Like the Court TV production, PMPT can be used for cherry picking favorite “assumptions” disguised as facts. And that’s good enough for some. moo

 

[questfortrue]

This post is a response to Elannia who brought up a profound question whether any in the family know more and why wouldn’t someone speak. I guess I don’t think there are simple answers. I don’t expect anyone in this family, if they do know more, to speak out. But who knows after JR passes.

As Andrew so appropriately says in his post above, the forensic evidence seems to overwhelm the details of the behavioral ‘weirdness’ of the parents and son. I agree. While for CSI leaning folks, the forensic evidence is the only ‘real’ evidence, the behavioral evidence also tells us a lot. Poster Koldkase who has studied this case for many, many years once wrote about the fact that it is incredibly difficult to understand and know another’s family, sometimes we can’t even understand our own.

With that idea, here are some other thoughts. Author Andrew Solomon has a chapter in a recent book called Far from The Tree. In this chapter he studies and documents the reactions of parents of children/juveniles who commit crimes. These reactions run the gamut from denial to turning a child in to the police. (I also know of a case where a father killed his son after discovering that his son molested his 3 year old half-sister.) So there are a wide spectrum of reactions.

What sets this case apart from others is, imo, the extremely unusual behavior of the parents which was enabled by wealth and connections. For this to be set in motion and carried forth, of course, they had the help of DA AH and their attorneys. If BR molested and struck JB, perhaps any parent might find some rationale for covering up the crime at the beginning and pointing to an intruder. The contradictions (‘lies’) were glaring from the very beginning. But something else took hold and continued to gain momentum. It led me to believe all three family members had involvement.

What I found egregiously troubling is that JR and PR began to throw friends under the suspicion bus. JR even points out to LE that PW (FW’s wife) was from California and might own a stun gun. PR points out that PW had a jacket just like hers whose fibers were found at the crime scene. That blame behavior on the part of the parents is sociopathic in every way. One might wish to escape all responsibility but to blame friends? It’s as though they were communicating to their circle: You either back us or we will destroy you in any way we can. (‘course up pops Nancy Krebs tale to the police.) In fact, that exact message of intimidation was also delivered by SS to the photographer and past friend, JP: You’re either with PR or against her.

So, would someone in the family really be comfortable sharing information (if indeed they had knowledge) when there is the vindictive behavior of the parents visible through their actions against former friends and via their lawsuits? Keep in mind that JR is still wealthy, and there is also a trail of corruption to the role played by authorities in Boulder. (SuperDave’s book brings this out.)

One also can’t ignore the evidence of incest, which contains huge shame for a family.

Marilyn Van Derbur Atler (a former Miss America) took a very brave step as a consequence of the years and years of healing from her childhood abuse. She felt it was her calling to bring this into the open and reach out to as many victims of abuse as possible. She realized that her mother knew about the abuse and had ignored it. Like the Rs this Denver family was rich and prominent. As a young woman Marilyn spoke to her pastor about what had happened and, after her father had passed, spoke to her mother. Her mother demanded to speak to the pastor. The pastor, when he arrived at the home, was led to be seated in a chair in the living room facing another chair. He thought Marilyn’s mother would somehow offer a remorseful statement of some kind. Instead, the mother had just one question: “Who else knows?”

all, mho.

 

[Global Justice Ops]

A person's behavior after a traumatic event like that is too complex to be seen as legitimately incriminating IMO. Linda Arndt saw everyone's reactions when JonBenet's body was discovered. Patsy's hysterical response contrasted with John's quite state of shock, I think this led her to belive that John alone did it. She expected a similar hysterical response from John if he was innocent.

I'm not a RDI leaning person. But Burke's fingerprints on the bowl of pineapple and pineapple being found inside of JonBenet is interesting.

It's important to note that those fingerprints could have been made long before the murder.

 

[midwest mama]

In reply to post #868 from questfortrue.....

In spite of anything that comes from several other posters in different threads, it is my opinion that there was absolute evidence made public by reliable sources that JB was a victim of chronic sexual abuse, and that we can consider incest in this diagnosis.

I agree that females in families involved with child sexual abuse can be manipulated into a state of acceptance of all the behaviors that are included in the dynamic. From what I have discovered about incest, some young victims grow up to become willing participants in continued familial abuse situations, going on to groom their own daughters as participants with male family members. And while they are co-operative in all aspects behind closed doors, they know they have to portray a completely different image to the outside world....at all costs.

With the head bash being dealt before the strangulation, no matter how JB received it, getting help for her in an ER was not an option because of the ultimate discovery of her chronic sexual abuse which was sure to be discovered, IMO. What I question about that is: could they have stood the shame of the discovery if it meant saving her life and them being able to place responsibility for the abuse on her young sibling brother? Surely in the medical privacy situation of that "accident" being treated in a hospital with the hope of saving their comatose daughter, responsibility for the abuse getting placed on Burke would have given them protection from law enforcement being able to ultimately go after any other adult males close to them. Especially if it proved, after investigation, to be completely true that it was BR who was molesting his sister.

But, if there was no hope of eventually pinning everything on Burke, JR would be the first one chased down, then every other close male family member or friend if JR could be found not responsible.

So, IMO, the reason JB could not have been taken into an ER for help if the head bash preceded the strangulation, is because it was known an adult would eventually be connected to her chronic sexual abuse. And that would be the beginning of the end for all involved in the Ramsey realm.

 

[otg]

(rsbm)

I agree that females in families involved with child sexual abuse can be manipulated into a state of acceptance of all the behaviors that are included in the dynamic. From what I have discovered about incest, some young victims grow up to become willing participants in continued familial abuse situations, going on to groom their own daughters as participants with male family members. And while they are co-operative in all aspects behind closed doors, they know they have to portray a completely different image to the outside world....at all costs.

I read a news article recently -- I hesitate to bring it up because I don’t think what it talks about necessarily pertains to this case (JMHO). But just to go along with what you bring up about incest and the family dynamics that can perpetuate its acceptance and continue to keep it from being found out, I’ll point out this case. It’s been discussed here at WS for a couple of years since a young woman (19 yrs old) disappeared, but I don’t venture out from this forum much unless something causes me to look. So I was unaware of it until I saw the first news story. The missing woman is Brittney Wood. Her disappearance and the death of her uncle (possibly suicide, though there is reason to suspect otherwise) caused police to begin investigating the family and found that a tight group of individuals (mostly two families) had been sharing and abusing their children for at least three generations. So far, they’ve arrested around a dozen or so scumbags, men and women, parents and grandparents -- it’s really shocking, unbelievable, and sickening.

Here are a few articles (no particular order) on what was going on, but don’t open and read them unless you know ahead of time just how horrible the abuse reported is:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tney-Wood-pleads-SISTER-tell-body-buried.html
http://www.al.com/news/mobile/index.ssf/2014/08/missing_woman_brittany_wood_wa.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/brittne...a-teen-probe-uncovers-alleged-child-sex-ring/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ed-dead-police-say-revealed-abused-child.html
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-...ncest-Ring-Unravels-After-Teens-Disappearance

Map of area:
https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msi...6,-88.052673&spn=0.605303,1.352692&dg=feature

Latest WS thread:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?245724-AL-Brittney-Wood-19-Mobile-31-May-2012-13

 

[midwest mama]

with regard to otg'spost above....
Thanks for all the links. Sickening and disgusting, unfortunately, doesn't make the reality of this despicable activity go away. Since I started posting in this forum a few years ago, I have gone down a couple of paths looking at the possibility of the R's being involved in pedo ring activity. I realize that my views are among the minority who post here, and I doubt there are many posters who really want to take a hard look at the possibility the R family was involved in high level ring activity. It's not something easy to consider and then begin to digest.

Nonetheless, it's my opinion that the R's could have been key players in a Boulder ring that was hooked into a high profile group with at least national involvement. I believe PR was a victim in her own family as a child, and that NP and DP promoted her into a high level of involvement which flowed over into her being hooked up with JR. I'll take the risk here of saying I believe, after careful reading of JR's writings, that there was something amiss in JR's sexual health sometime during his teen years, and that he became naturally attracted to some perverse behaviors as a young adult while in college. I think it's possible his attraction and marriage to Lucinda had something "dark" hiding below what appeared to be a regular life. With the addition of a mistress, it solidifies the fact that sexual immorality is acceptable to JR. Not a leap for me to believe he used adult females as a cover for what festered inside him -- a desire for young girls.

Once PR crossed his path, she pulled no punches in helping him, through deception, toss aside his current paramour in favor of freeing him for her. They were peas in a pod from the beginning. And I do not believe they met strictly by chance. It seems way too coincidental to me that Don P had all the right connections for JR's business interests, which were compatible to PR's skills and capabilities. PR said she would have to ask her mother before she could accept JR's proposal. I've discovered that in familial pedo/kiddie *advertiser censored* groups, it's customary for the mothers (or other significant family females) to assume the roles of full responsibility for the young female's complete management: with personal grooming, in relationships, social exposure, family interaction, etc.. And this is how it was with PR and JB as well.

There are too many kinks in the information surrounding JB's death connected to the possibility of her being a victim of pedophile abuse, IMO. Here's a list:

1. eroded hymen, enlarged vaginal opening, repeated medical appointments for vaginitis
2. sexualized presentations in child beauty pageants
3. costuming in beauty pageants with sexual overtones (showgirls & Marilyn Monroe)
4. Randy Simons, her photographer, displayed freakish and distraught behavior, combined with public nudity,
after JB's death.
5. Santa Bill - his delight with JB and the "notches" of dead children in his cane
6. The "cutesy" photographs found in the Ramsey basement.
7. Gold bracelet with 12-25-1996 date when she was 6 years old - an age at which females can be indoctrinated into rings (Connections to Rainbow girls are not unusal for this).
8. JB's reported clinging to PR
9. Urinary and feces dysfunctions
10. Rumors she had told others about people in black robes with candles.
11. "Secret visit" from Santa after Christmas
12. Ripped up letter from Santa found in her trash can
13. Segregated away from playmates on Christmas afternoon under a guise of illness, reported by PR.
(She went for a bike ride later with JR, and no one at the Whites mentioned she was ill later. Was she
kept away from possibly telling playmates about something awry?)
14. Helgoth's apparent suicide. (He knew something, IMO-and I think he was set up)
15. Rod Westmoreland on the road on the 26th to visit his mother (down South) but able to show up at the Ramsey's in Colorado, that early afternoon as soon as he was able to set up the ransom money availabity. (I always thought it strange that him being a family man, no other family member was with him to go along for the visit.)
16. Don Paugh flying standby on the 24th to Atlanta - right after the 911 phone mishap during the Ramsey party on the 23rd. Really, Mr. Paugh making a STANDBY commercial flight to have Christmas with his wife, when he was an important member of company who had 2 private jets available to his son-in-law?

Call me crazy and obsessed, but I just can't overlook all these factors when bunched together.