RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[questfortrue]

So is that red turtleneck the one she was supposed to wear to the White"s?

Andreww, as you wisely suggested once, so much is confusing because Patsy and JR could have lied about nearly everything they told LE. And, as with many lies, one lie may be told to cover another lie.

Patsy starts off on Dec. 26 saying she put the red turtleneck on JB at bedtime. But then by April 30, ‘97 interviews, her statement changes. The dressing with the red turtleneck story had to be changed to support the Rs’ version of events that she was ‘zonked’ and carried to bed, where she was redressed in the leggings. (Placing a turtleneck on a sleeping child is very difficult, not impossible, but certainly unless a child were unconscious, the child would wake up.)

So we have then the April ‘97 story to explain that the red turtleneck was what Patsy wanted her to wear to the party, but JonBenét wanted to wear the white crew neck with the star which she had picked out at The Gap. This tale is even repeated by JR in DOI. So why is it so important to tell that story?

Well, speculatively (though sometimes it’s the only tool available to try to make sense of their statements) there’s also a possibility that the turtleneck had been worn during the day, and maybe she’d gotten it dirty so she could not wear it to the party. We don’t have any photos of JB after Christmas morning and before getting dressed for the W’s party. Sadly the little girls who came over to play with JB were told JB was sick and couldn’t play, or else they could have corroborated what JB wore Christmas afternoon. There’s a photo of JB’s play pants (with fecal ‘staining’) on the floor of the bathroom. There is never a mention of what top she was wearing. I would simply wonder whether the red top was worn in the afternoon and if there was perhaps some specific reason that information would be concealed.

Also something else occurred in the 1998 interview relevant to the red turtleneck. When talking about the turtleneck Patsy spots a crown in a photo, and veers sharply to the existence of a crown, at which point she breaks down, and they take a break from questioning. Was this real or a diversion, IDK.

You all could be totally correct, that this red turtleneck is a red herring. But there’s also a possibility the story about the red turtleneck was created for some reason. I don’t know if it was taken into evidence or not.

Just for the benefit of anyone interested, here’s the photos of the turtleneck and the red jumpsuit she claimed to be fussing with the morning of the 26th.

From Kolar's book. I colorized the shirt to make it more visible in photo.


Interview with Patsy, 6/98 "I remember laying the little red jumpsuit of JonBenet's over the ironing board, because it had a few spots on it" (snip) "No, no, it was something she had worn for a Christmas performance. It was a little Christmas thing." (snip) "she wore it, some of her pageant girls performed together in a group, some Christmas songs and things, down in a mall in Denver". Performance on December 22, 1996, the day before the Christmas party.

 

[TeaTime]

I think if JBR went to sleep in the red turtleneck, the coroner would have found a ton of red sweater fibers in her hair. He didn't. PR may have been drinking that night and her memory like squash that morning, but later the details were clearer. It happens.

Red herring. The red sweater was only significant when LE needed a 'last seen wearing' description. Was she told while waiting on the ransom call, for instance, or at any time before they found the body that the red sweater was found, wet, on the vanity and asked for more clarification of 'last seen wearing' and and was unable to clarify what JBR was put to bed wearing? Or was she told this much later after her memory returned? I don't know.

PR was nothing if not a scatter brain. Plus, you can bet she suffered from chemo brain, so her thought process was a bit scrambled. Thinking white pullover and saying red sweater would be classic chemo brain stuff, especially under stress. Worrying over a stained jumpsuit while packing for 2 trips seems manic but it may have been on the ironing board for days for all we know.

There is just no there there. IMO

 

[andreww]

Two things...

The sequinned jumpsuit is (for lack of a better word) sexy. On a grown woman it would probably qualify as lingerie. I wonder if someone put that on her when they returned home?

I still don't see a rational explanation as to why the red turtleneck was wet. They had had a fight about wearing it to the White's, so it must have been in wearable condition at that point. I JB is put directly to bed on returning home, how did the turtleneck get wet?


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[andreww]

The sweater was balled up on the bathroom counter, the jumpsuit on the ironing board IIRC - both damp. How did the sweater get wet? JBR may have wet it so she wouldn't have to wear it. She may have tossed it into the toilet, who knows. Andreww, although it looks suspect, and I was having all sorts of terrible ideas to put these 2 bits of clothing together in some nefarious way, I do not believe that there was some performance by JBR that night for weirdos, photo sessions or whatever. The neighbors would have seen or heard vehicles coming and going from the residence. It is nothing more than 2 bits of red clothing at Christmas as a poster upthread suggested.

I totally get that JB could have wet the sweater in a tantrum, but why wouldn't Patsy mention that? She says they had a fight about what to wear but never mentions the sweater being sabotaged.


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[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Isn't turtleneck to bed a bit weird also? Never heard of.. Maybe it's just me.

 

[Annapurna]

andreww, probably just wouldn't want any hint of real conflict to be known. Its one thing to wet a bed, its another thing to wet yourself out of anger and to get your way.

I would not wear a turtleneck to bed, but the 90's were a different time! lol

 

[andreww]

andreww, probably just wouldn't want any hint of real conflict to be known. Its one thing to wet a bed, its another thing to wet yourself out of anger and to get your way.

I would not wear a turtleneck to bed, but the 90's were a different time! lol

Yes but they were so anxious to get past being suspects and moving towards looking at intruders. You would assume that being honest and forthcoming would be the order of the day, but I guess not.

 

[Annapurna]

I know I don't have to tell you that they weren't exactly "forthcoming" on many things.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Andreww, as you wisely suggested once, so much is confusing because Patsy and JR could have lied about nearly everything they told LE. And, as with many lies, one lie may be told to cover another lie.

Patsy starts off on Dec. 26 saying she put the red turtleneck on JB at bedtime. But then by April 30, ‘97 interviews, her statement changes. The dressing with the red turtleneck story had to be changed to support the Rs’ version of events that she was ‘zonked’ and carried to bed, where she was redressed in the leggings. (Placing a turtleneck on a sleeping child is very difficult, not impossible, but certainly unless a child were unconscious, the child would wake up.)

So we have then the April ‘97 story to explain that the red turtleneck was what Patsy wanted her to wear to the party, but JonBenét wanted to wear the white crew neck with the star which she had picked out at The Gap. This tale is even repeated by JR in DOI. So why is it so important to tell that story?

Well, speculatively (though sometimes it’s the only tool available to try to make sense of their statements) there’s also a possibility that the turtleneck had been worn during the day, and maybe she’d gotten it dirty so she could not wear it to the party. We don’t have any photos of JB after Christmas morning and before getting dressed for the W’s party. Sadly the little girls who came over to play with JB were told JB was sick and couldn’t play, or else they could have corroborated what JB wore Christmas afternoon. There’s a photo of JB’s play pants (with fecal ‘staining’) on the floor of the bathroom. There is never a mention of what top she was wearing. I would simply wonder whether the red top was worn in the afternoon and if there was perhaps some specific reason that information would be concealed.

Also something else occurred in the 1998 interview relevant to the red turtleneck. When talking about the turtleneck Patsy spots a crown in a photo, and veers sharply to the existence of a crown, at which point she breaks down, and they take a break from questioning. Was this real or a diversion, IDK.

You all could be totally correct, that this red turtleneck is a red herring. But there’s also a possibility the story about the red turtleneck was created for some reason. I don’t know if it was taken into evidence or not.

Just for the benefit of anyone interested, here’s the photos of the turtleneck and the red jumpsuit she claimed to be fussing with the morning of the 26th.

View attachment 86690 From Kolar's book. I colorized the shirt to make it more visible in photo.


View attachment 86691 Interview with Patsy, 6/98 "I remember laying the little red jumpsuit of JonBenet's over the ironing board, because it had a few spots on it" (snip) "No, no, it was something she had worn for a Christmas performance. It was a little Christmas thing." (snip) "she wore it, some of her pageant girls performed together in a group, some Christmas songs and things, down in a mall in Denver". Performance on December 22, 1996, the day before the Christmas party.

Excellent and very thoughtful post ..here's that part from the 1998 interview

How about the red
24 item in the upper right-hand corner?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's a
0266
1 little turtleneck, a little cotton turtleneck,
2 and I had wanted her to wear it to the Whites
3 and she didn't want to wear it.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: How did it end up
5 there?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Don't remember. A
7 crown. Oh, God.
8 THOMAS HANEY: It's about 10:25.
9 Do you want to take about a ten-minute break,

 

[TeaTime]

So a red sweater that you fought over with your child just hours before she was murdered doesn't bring on any emotion but a photo of a crown results in a breakdown?

No, I think it was the memory of the fight over the sweater and how it became wet that sparked the emotion.

 

[Teresa]

What do you think? I enlarged a photo on the last page and noticed a wall that that comes together at a sharp angle behind the open drawer. Do you think Jon Benet could have received her head injury being thrown into the wall? Typing on kindle in bed, please excuse any typing mistakes.

 

[TeaTime]

I think the sharp edge of the corner of the wall would have caused a different type of injury and also would have broken the skin of the scalp.

 

[andreww]

I don't think people appreciate the amount of force she was hit with. That injury wasn't cause by being pushed in to a wall. She was hit with something hard with very significant force. She didn't fall down. She didn't bang her head. Somebody hit her f-Ing hard!


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[Teresa]

I don't think people appreciate the amount of force she was hit with. That injury wasn't cause by being pushed in to a wall. She was hit with something hard with very significant force. She didn't fall down. She didn't bang her head. Somebody hit her f-Ing hard!


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I didnt imagine a push or fall. I was thinking of a little girl thrown with force and hitting the wall directly on her head.

 

[Teresa]

I didnt imagine a push or fall. I was thinking of a little girl thrown with force and hitting the wall directly on her head.

I know the autopsy said JonBenet was hit with something hard,hard on her head. But, what if she was thrown virtually into a wall? I have thought of the lack of external injury. But she doesnt have anything from being "hit" and we know she has traumatic internal head injury. Trying to think outside the box but have no firm opinion

 

[Ellie9]

It seems hard to imagine that flashlight hit her that hard. I keep wondering about that metal baseball bat. But I don't know what was done with that bat. Also, if the bat was used, that pretty much means BDI. I don't see PR or JR using a baseball bat on her for some reason. It seems like a childish choice?

Then again that flashlight may have been wiped down. But it also could have been used to see in the dark to set the scene and write the note without flipping on all the houselights and alerting neighbours. If neighbours say, "i saw a flashlight or something" they could say, "a ha, an intruder!" So I can see this. I guess if the bat was used it could have been wiped down, too. Does anyone know more detail about that?

Also it's a broad object around the top, meaning it might not cut open the skin. I can see the bat causing this type of fracture.

 

[observation]

From Steve Thomas's book- page 44
A red clay brick that appeared to have fibers stuck to it was retrieved from the living room fireplace and a baseball bat with blonde hair on it was found in the backyard.
Not much talk about the brick- but just wanted to bring ST's info. here when he discusses objects that may have been used when JBR was bludgeoned.


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[Annapurna]

The brick would have broken the skin for sure.

I really find it hard to believe that the flashlight was the murder weapon. I think it must have been used for the staging.

Great care was taken in the staging, or at least a lot of effort. Leaving the flashlight on the counter doesn't seem to fit that for me. The most important thing, the weapon, just out in the open? If it had been placed back in the kitchen drawer, no one would have thought twice about it. Its not exactly the first thing you look at as a potential weapon.

RE: no fingerprints, I think this is kind of a misinterpretation by us non law enforcement types. I think it had no useable fingerprints. A fingerprint obviously has to have a certain amount of clarity for it to be compared, so smudged ones would not be useable. It has the burled grip which would not have been a good surface for recovering a print. I think the "wiped down batteries" are also just no useable prints. I know I've said all this before but I will again for anyone who hasn't read it. Think about how you put batteries into a big long flashlight like that. You probably let them slip from your fingers. They also could have been inserted in the factory. If the light was indeed wiped down, I highly doubt it would have been the inside as well.

The baseball bat seems a more logical weapon. I would have to check a house diagram to see where it was placed outside. I wonder if it could have been thrown out a window. I agree that it seems very much like a childish weapon choice.

 

[otg]

From Steve Thomas's book- page 44
A red clay brick that appeared to have fibers stuck to it was retrieved from the living room fireplace and a baseball bat with blonde hair on it was found in the backyard.
Not much talk about the brick- but just wanted to bring ST's info. here when he discusses objects that may have been used when JBR was bludgeoned.


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That was later corrected by Steve Thomas. In an online interview, Thomas said the "ball bat" should have been a "golf club":

BILL BICKEL: We’ve been told that the paperback will include several corrections. Anything of substance?

STEVE THOMAS: One item — page 44, a last minute mistake — ballbat with hair on it should read “golfclub with hair on it”, found outside on west side of house. ballbat found in north yard. other corrections are minor, grammar, etc A second notation in hypothesis includes fact that Patsy had alcohol to drink at White’s party that night.
​

 

[Ellie9]

If it was a golf club it would have to almost be that big fat one used when you are first starting at the new hole to tee off.