RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Do we have any knowledge about the evidence from under JB's barefeet ?
In the autopsy there's a reference of that as paper bags from feet..The forensic analyze of that would say a lot imo such as lack of fiber or dust from basement floor could indicate she was carried there and not walked..

 

[otg]

(bbm)

Do we have any knowledge about the evidence from under JB's barefeet ?

In the autopsy there's a reference of that as paper bags from feet..The forensic analyze of that would say a lot imo such as lack of fiber or dust from basement floor could indicate she was carried there and not walked..

Nothing that has been made public. You might find the following thread about Skip Palenik interesting from our sister site:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?9975-The-Dust-Detective-and-the-JBR-case

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Ö

(bbm)Nothing that has been made public. You might find the following thread about Skip Palenik interesting from our sister site:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?9975-The-Dust-Detective-and-the-JBR-case

Thank you OTG lots of info therenline:

 

[DeeDee249]

If it was a golf club it would have to almost be that big fat one used when you are first starting at the new hole to tee off.

That kind of club is called a "driver". If that hair matched JB's it certainly explains why JR was so anxious to have his sister-in-law Aunt P get his golf bag from the house. However, as police did seem to take a club into evidence, we can only hope they tested it and did not find a match- because I cannot imagine that staying a secret if it did.

 

[Karinna]

From JonBenet autopsy report on the head injuries:

II. Craniocerebral injuries
A. Scalp contusion

B. Linear, comminuted fracture of right side of skull

C. Linear pattern of contusions of right cerebral hemisphere

D. subarachnoid and subdural hemorrhage

E. Small contusions, tips of temporal lobes

These types of injuries appear in homicide cases and can prove fatal.
(quote)
Comminuted fracture of the skull was observed in nearly half (49.3%) of the fatal cases [Table 2] and multiple cranial bone fracture was detected in over three quarters (76.7% n= 56) of the cases [Table 3]. Comparing the multiple and single cranial bone fractures among the fatal and nonfatal cases and applying the chi square test, multiple bone fracture was found to be highly significant for fatality p = 0.0005.
http://jivresearch.org/jivr/index.php/jivr/article/viewArticle/46/107

 

[Karinna]

I was thinking the head injury could of been caused by a heavy blunt object like the baseball bat or a golf club. Could of even been a hammer.

 

[BBB167893]

I didnt imagine a push or fall. I was thinking of a little girl thrown with force and hitting the wall directly on her head.

I've often wondered that. Try this on for size: JB says or does something that sets PR off. PR means to toss JB by her collar and waistband onto the bed, throws her too hard and her head strikes something.

 

[lawstudent]

For some reason I always forget that the murder weapon isn't known (or if she was hit vs. slammed against something I guess). Obviously a key issue. I know there must be tons of speculation by experts by now.

 

[DeeDee249]

I was thinking the head injury could of been caused by a heavy blunt object like the baseball bat or a golf club. Could of even been a hammer.

The autopsy report lists "blunt force trauma" "in association with" ligature strangulation. I have always believed it was the heavy flashlight found in the kitchen area. It was found to be completely wiped of prints, INSIDE and out. Even the batteries had been taken out and wiped down. No intruder would do this- take that kind of time AFTER she screamed and with the parents and sibling in the house. But a parent would do it- to distance themselves from it.

 

[Annapurna]

Does anyone have a relationship with a doctor who could shed some light on this? I've tried to do research on the subject but its difficult to find specific information.

I want to know:

How much force would be required for a comminuted fracture?
How much would be required to crack her skull like that? What angle was she hit from?
Would her hair and scrunchi be enough to protect her skin explaining the lack of scalp injury?
How did the bone shatter in? (like if you're walking on ice, and it all goes down to the point of pressure, was it centered or more lateral?)
How would the physics of this work? How much leverage would be required to meet the amount of force required? How would that differ for different lengths of weapon?
How would it work if she was thrown? Would that be possible without many other injuries?*


Obviously these are all pretty hard questions. I haven't been able to answer them (nor can I do the math required! lol)

If anyone knows a trauma doctor, an ER doctor, a bone doctor (would be ideal IMO), a nurse who about this subject, hell even a chiropractor if they could actually answer these.

Between all of us maybe someone could find a doctor they know and trust. If we were able to come to some sort of conclusion about what weapon was used, if any.

* I think that if she was thrown that would help explain the strange mark on her face. It is brown in color whereas the other bruises she had were red or more purple. Would that make it perimortem? Post or antemortem? Would being thrown result in an injury to the neck? Would it be enough to bruise or at least be serious enough that someone would pull a cord around her neck? I find that last question very hard to swallow.

 

[lawstudent]

The autopsy report lists "blunt force trauma" "in association with" ligature strangulation. I have always believed it was the heavy flashlight found in the kitchen area. It was found to be completely wiped of prints, INSIDE and out. Even the batteries had been taken out and wiped down. No intruder would do this- take that kind of time AFTER she screamed and with the parents and sibling in the house. But a parent would do it- to distance themselves from it.

Was it known to be wiped down or just clear of prints? I know this has been discussed but I feel like it is one of those issues where facts and speculation get fused. Not having prints on it doesn't mean it was wiped down - obviously if there was recent evidence someone had been scrubbing away at it, one would wonder why that is. I get that a blunt object injury could have a limitless number of sources since it is just a hard blow, but is it the type of injury that can be narrowed down through analysis of the consistency of the shape/size of the flashlight?

ETA: re the post below me, I feel like there is more to this analysis that hasn't been released (not that a lot of it couldn't be recreated by some other expert in the media). The main thing I take away is that she was obviously hit very hard - this was no stumble or overexuberant push. It isn't abnormal for there not to be an exterior wound if it was a blunt object.

 

[Annapurna]

I'm going to quote myself, sorry.

I really find it hard to believe that the flashlight was the murder weapon. I think it must have been used for the staging.

Great care was taken in the staging, or at least a lot of effort. Leaving the flashlight on the counter doesn't seem to fit that for me. The most important thing, the weapon, just out in the open? If it had been placed back in the kitchen drawer, no one would have thought twice about it. Its not exactly the first thing you look at as a potential weapon.

RE: no fingerprints, I think this is kind of a misinterpretation by us non law enforcement types. I think it had no useable fingerprints. A fingerprint obviously has to have a certain amount of clarity for it to be compared, so smudged ones would not be useable. It has the burled grip which would not have been a good surface for recovering a print. I think the "wiped down batteries" are also just no useable prints. I know I've said all this before but I will again for anyone who hasn't read it. Think about how you put batteries into a big long flashlight like that. You probably let them slip from your fingers. They also could have been inserted in the factory. If the light was indeed wiped down, I highly doubt it would have been the inside as well.

The baseball bat seems a more logical weapon. I would have to check a house diagram to see where it was placed outside. I wonder if it could have been thrown out a window. I agree that it seems very much like a childish weapon choice.

I highly doubt the flashlight was actually wiped down inside. What is the source of this? Is it a real "fact" or is it an interpretation of statements that has become myth?

Did Steve Thomas say that? No offense to Steve but I don't really take his interpretations to be completely accurate. He hadn't worked a homicide before, and he quit while the case was still developing. I think his suspicion of Patsy colored some of his interpretations rather than the evidence leading him to his conclusion.

 

[ontheclock]

Was it known to be wiped down or just clear of prints? I know this has been discussed but I feel like it is one of those issues where facts and speculation get fused. Not having prints on it doesn't mean it was wiped down

I highly doubt the flashlight was actually wiped down inside. What is the source of this? Is it a real "fact" or is it an interpretation of statements that has become myth?

Agreed. Hope you don't mind that I snipped.

 

[Fides]

Does anyone have a relationship with a doctor who could shed some light on this? I've tried to do research on the subject but its difficult to find specific information.

I want to know:

How much force would be required for a comminuted fracture?
How much would be required to crack her skull like that? What angle was she hit from?
Would her hair and scrunchi be enough to protect her skin explaining the lack of scalp injury?
How did the bone shatter in? (like if you're walking on ice, and it all goes down to the point of pressure, was it centered or more lateral?)
How would the physics of this work? How much leverage would be required to meet the amount of force required? How would that differ for different lengths of weapon?
How would it work if she was thrown? Would that be possible without many other injuries?*


Obviously these are all pretty hard questions. I haven't been able to answer them (nor can I do the math required! lol)

If anyone knows a trauma doctor, an ER doctor, a bone doctor (would be ideal IMO), a nurse who about this subject, hell even a chiropractor if they could actually answer these.

Between all of us maybe someone could find a doctor they know and trust. If we were able to come to some sort of conclusion about what weapon was used, if any.

* I think that if she was thrown that would help explain the strange mark on her face. It is brown in color whereas the other bruises she had were red or more purple. Would that make it perimortem? Post or antemortem? Would being thrown result in an injury to the neck? Would it be enough to bruise or at least be serious enough that someone would pull a cord around her neck? I find that last question very hard to swallow.

I cannot answer your questions, but I read some incredible work done by otg on this site regarding the shape of the fracture and the candidates for weapon. I am sorry I cannot point you to it but perhaps he can or someone else?

 

[andreww]

I'm going to quote myself, sorry.



I highly doubt the flashlight was actually wiped down inside. What is the source of this? Is it a real "fact" or is it an interpretation of statements that has become myth?

Did Steve Thomas say that? No offense to Steve but I don't really take his interpretations to be completely accurate. He hadn't worked a homicide before, and he quit while the case was still developing. I think his suspicion of Patsy colored some of his interpretations rather than the evidence leading him to his conclusion.

I agree, the lack of prints on the flashlight probably means nothing. That is, unless it's the actual murder weapon.

What I mean by that is this; if one of the Ramsey's used the flashlight that night to find their way around in the dark, the need to wipe it would not be great. It was their flashlight after all. Why shouldn't their prints be on it?

Now if it was actually the murder weapon, trace amounts of blood, hair or skin combined with a set of fingerprints makes a compelling clue. You bet your *advertiser censored* that they would take that thing apart and clean each part individually. I would!

The third scenario would be the leaving the flashlight as a clue pointing to an intruder. Of course this would require a complete wiping as well as any trace of Ramsey fingerprints or DNA would be disastrous. I'd life to hear how the Ramsey's reacted to the flashlight that morning. Did they act like it was from Mars or did they immediately say it looks like the one John got as a gift. I believe the answer to that question would tell a lot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Teresa]

I've often wondered that. Try this on for size: JB says or does something that sets PR off. PR means to toss JB by her collar and waistband onto the bed, throws her too hard and her head strikes something.

Yes SuperDave, me too. I imagine an overly tired child and mom, a bed wetting accident and a child being shaken and jerked by her shirt collar. JonBenet crying and fighting Patsy. I imagine Patsy picking up JonBenet and throwing her into the bathroom to be cleaned up. Being thrown into a wall with a sharp edge and with force might be like getting hit hard on the head. Your idea is thought provoking too. What do you imagine her head hit in the bed? I believe the accident occurred with Patsy and John was messing with her as a separate occurrence. I think the vaginal injuries that night were staging.

 

[questfortrue]

I'm going to quote myself, sorry.



I highly doubt the flashlight was actually wiped down inside. What is the source of this? Is it a real "fact" or is it an interpretation of statements that has become myth?

Did Steve Thomas say that? No offense to Steve but I don't really take his interpretations to be completely accurate. He hadn't worked a homicide before, and he quit while the case was still developing. I think his suspicion of Patsy colored some of his interpretations rather than the evidence leading him to his conclusion.

Whether Schiller is accurate with this information or not - some of his info is well-sourced, some is hearsay - but this is what he included in PMPT. It's from the same folks who brought the info on the pineapple dish and glass, Colorado Bureau of Investigation:
By now the CBI had determined that both the outside of the flashlight and the batteries inside held no fingerprints. Most likely they had been wiped clean. PMPT Kindle – p.452.

 

[Annapurna]

This could be an interpretation on Schiller's part. It could be an inference because there were no prints. Or the batteries were factory inserted. I'm not saying its impossible, just that it sounds unlikely.

The only way this was wiped down is if it was part of the staging. If this is the case then was it really part of the crime? Why would someone use that as staging? Why not leave it in the basement to associate it with the body? Surely JAR would recognize it, so wouldn't they think of that?

Its just such a strange thing to do if it was indeed intended to be a part of staging. PR wasn't a neat freak by any means so I can't picture her doing that somewhat absently or in a frantic cleaning spree. Who would ever think of that? I'm going to have to go back into the interviews to see what they said about this.

I just really don't think it was the murder weapon. Its only 2.5 pounds, that's pretty light. Its short so the amount of leverage required would be pretty great. This would imply that it really only could have been an adult, to account for enough height, swing and force. I just don't see how an adult would be in a situation where they whack a little girl with all their might with a flashlight of all things.

 

[andreww]

The only way this was wiped down is if it was part of the staging. If this is the case then was it really part of the crime? Why would someone use that as staging? Why not leave it in the basement to associate it with the body? Surely JAR would recognize it, so wouldn't they think of that?

If it was the murder weapon, it would have been wiped down very carefully don't you think?

Its just such a strange thing to do if it was indeed intended to be a part of staging. PR wasn't a neat freak by any means so I can't picture her doing that somewhat absently or in a frantic cleaning spree. Who would ever think of that? I'm going to have to go back into the interviews to see what they said about this.

What better way to say an intruder was in your house than to leave a strange flashlight lying about?

I just really don't think it was the murder weapon. Its only 2.5 pounds, that's pretty light. Its short so the amount of leverage required would be pretty great. This would imply that it really only could have been an adult, to account for enough height, swing and force. I just don't see how an adult would be in a situation where they whack a little girl with all their might with a flashlight of all things.

As I pointed out up thread, tests were done that showed the flashlight could cause a very similar injury. And you seem to forget that Burke was substantially taller than JB at that time.

 

[Annapurna]

You're right, if it was the murder weapon it would indeed have been carefully cleaned. But why not just put it in a drawer? It was immediately identified as belonging to the Ramsey's even though they tried to deny it ("it looks dirty" :rolleyes"). This is what I meant to say when saying it must be part of the staging, its so easy to hide. It seems like a terrible idea to try and make it look like an intruder's. JAR wouldn't know they were doing that, what's to stop him from identifying it?

I think I asked you before but I don't remember seeing it, I need to see the source with my own eyes to believe it (nothing against you). How tall was Burke? Its just such an incredible wound (that crack especially). It seems more likely to me that the weapon would be a golf club, or even a bat.

otg did an extensive experiment that I remember seeing (with pictures and videos, which is why I put faith in it) suggesting that the wound was most likely made by a cylindrical or rounded item. This could include the flashlight, but it would have to be the handle. The way Spitz (IIRC) shows the light part going into the wound makes little sense to me.