Rebecca Nalepa - suicide or murder? #5

[sdcali]

I forgot to add and closed the link, that it was stated DS was a witness to hanging. That makes me think that she showed up before or about time police did. I would assume that either before or shortly after 911 call AS called JS. I cannot see him calling DS unless he could not reach his brother.

"witness" in this instance means that she is not a "person of interest" or "suspect", not that she was there or that she actually saw anything.

 

[Inobu]

I think many are not taking "died a violent death" within the context that it was spoken.

Everyone is assuming that the death was by hanging and because of that it is violent. Death by suicide is not violent in the context of the word. There is a difference between you doing it to yourself verses someone doing something to you.

The Law and LE usage is specific.

A violent crime or crime of violence is a crime in which the offender uses or threatens to use violent force upon the victim. This entails both crimes in which the violent act is the objective, such as murder, as well as crimes in which violence is the means to an end, (including criminal ends) such as robbery. Violent crimes include crimes committed with and without weapons.

Homicide (Latin: homicidium, Latin: *advertiser censored* human being + Latin: caedere to cut, kill) refers to the act of a human killing another human.[1] Murder, for example, is a type of homicide. It can also describe a person who has committed such an act, though this use is rare in modern English. Homicide is not always a punishable act under the criminal law, and is different than a murder from such formal legal point of view.

Example death by self defense.

I think LE told us what was going on in the beginning and I think the family was updated hence their comment of " no comment due to compromising the investigation."

 

[sdcali]

I have a problem with LE calling the players "Witnesses", when they really mean to say, they have an "alibi". Iron clad or not.
IMO

Yeah, I agree it is misleading. How do they know who is a witness and who is a "witness".

 

[branwynbreeze]

I am still wondering significance of mirror/painting/photo that was taken into evidence. I understand table, I carpet may be from room w/balcony, but why the framed item?

 

[sdcali]

I am still wondering significance of mirror/painting/photo that was taken into evidence. I understand table, I carpet may be from room w/balcony, but why the framed item?

maybe it was on the floor? knocked down? evidence of a struggle? I wonder the same thing.

 

[Malini2001]

You err in your perspective view.

The balcony is to the left of the table not the right. The alleged hanging area is opposite of the broken leg.

Using the images below

The body would have been against the wall, If AS cut the rope from the second floor then the body would have fell to the ground and the direct path would have been to the grass and I pointed out.

If he cut the rope from below then He and the body would still have been left of the table and the cord following that same path as indicated.

But what visual indicator are you using the theorize the body breaking the table leg? and where is the leg?

The leg is laying beneath the table, towards the back. I saw another picture where it was more obvious, but I don't have time to look for it now.

Actually - look at the picture you posted of the body from another angle, (looks like from the left of the scene) where the medical equipment is shown. The broken leg from the table is underneath the table and protruding from the bottom left of it in the picture.

 

[Inobu]

I am still wondering significance of mirror/painting/photo that was taken into evidence. I understand table, I carpet may be from room w/balcony, but why the framed item?

Most likely splatter what kind? normally it is blood but nothing to validate it.

Then the violent death statement takes the form in which LE stated it.

 

[cleo612]

I think many are not taking "died a violent death" within the context that it was spoken.

Everyone is assuming that the death was by hanging and because of that it is violent. Death by suicide is not violent in the context of the word. There is a difference between you doing it to yourself verses someone doing something to you.

The Law and LE usage is specific.

A violent crime or crime of violence is a crime in which the offender uses or threatens to use violent force upon the victim. This entails both crimes in which the violent act is the objective, such as murder, as well as crimes in which violence is the means to an end, (including criminal ends) such as robbery. Violent crimes include crimes committed with and without weapons.

Homicide (Latin: homicidium, Latin: *advertiser censored* human being + Latin: caedere to cut, kill) refers to the act of a human killing another human.[1] Murder, for example, is a type of homicide. It can also describe a person who has committed such an act, though this use is rare in modern English. Homicide is not always a punishable act under the criminal law, and is different than a murder from such formal legal point of view.

Example death by self defense.

I think LE told us what was going on in the beginning and I think the family was updated hence their comment of " no comment due to compromising the investigation."

Bolded by me...

My apologies for disagreeing with your carefully thought out description of a violent death.

My father committed suicide by jumping, or rather diving head first from the 3rd floor of a building onto a concrete driveway below.

This was clearly a suicide, yet when the responding officers spoke with me about his death, they described it to me as a "violent death."

My assumption in the use of the term "violent death" in regards to my father's suicide was that it was used because of the 1) amount of blood and 2) the extensive physical damage that occurred upon impact with the driveway.

Conversely, when my sister committed suicide, the coroner described her death as "very peaceful." My sister had ingested more than 80 tablets of OxyContin, put the driver's seat in her car into a reclining position, smoked one last cigarette and went to sleep.

I am still uncertain as to whether Rebecca committed suicide or died at the hand of someone else. It has been suggested that the room where the balcony is located might have been Maxie's room.

My first thoughts upon hearing said suggestion, is that she might have been overly distraught, had gone into Maxie's room to try and seek comfort amongst his belongings, went in there to say goodbye and apologize to him for not being more vigilant, and became so overcome with her grief that she decided to end her life.

In all of the photos we have seen of this home, I have not seen any other balcony type structure from where a person could hang themselves in the manner in which Rebecca was reportedly found. This might have been the reason she was found in that precise location.

Another thought I had was that this location might be in direct view of the entryway into the guest house--ensuring that she would be found immediately upon Adam's regress from the guest house.

If she had committed such an act in another part of the house, she might not have been found as quickly, especially given that Jonah was holding vigil at the hospital and was not at home. I seriously doubt that Adam would have been intruding into all of the private quarters of the home while his brother was elsewhere, so Rebecca's body would likely not have been found for several days.

Just some random thoughts....

 

[Dum-Dum Sucker]

Shouldn't the cord trail directly towards the balcony? Not off at an angle?????

 

[pferrin]

Respectfully Cleo..we dont have a clue wheither JS went home or not..could be that he and DS were taking turns at the vigil. When the media makes the statement ..I have little confidence that it is factual.

I believe that RN would have stayed around to be supportive for JS. In no way to I believe she would tie her hands and feet and hang herself naked outside. Nope.

 

[pferrin]

Shouldn't the cord trail directly towards the balcony? Not off at an angle?????

I think it should..that would make sense.

 

[MyBelle]

Shouldn't the cord trail directly towards the balcony? Not off at an angle?????

We don't know that the cord trailed anywhere. He may have grasped it along with her body so he wouldn't trip on it. If she was cut down and carried to the grass, we don't know how she was carried. The cord would not be trailing unless it was touching the ground the entire way and we don't know that much or even if the cord has any real significance. LE has been mum as to what they found in that house and whether it looked disrupted as in a struggle. jmo

 

[Paladine]

A true Alpha will tell you to stay and you will stay because he said so. Who ever had the dog was not a true Alpha. You stayed because of the dogs not him.

Alpha's leads and takes care of what they call/feel is their own. They do not abuse. Stay in line they have no gripe, step out of line and they are on you.

An abusive man is a control freak they usually prey on the weak. Control freaks make you do things because they want to feel the control. Alpha make you do things because he feels you need to.

Women often confuse the two.

I would gather to say you made the major changes out of necessity that is a big difference in making a change from personal wants.

RN felt that was what she needed to do, did not matter, she did it.

Timid people are timid and you can provoke a timid person to react but that does not make them an Alpha. Often you can see Alpha in childhood. Gang leaders are examples of the Alpha system.

Alpha or control freak...it all feels the same to me... As I said, I'll leave the Aplha, non-Alpha discussion to ya'll...

 

[StJohn]

I am honestly not sure where the diagnosis of Max being brain dead came from? I have read it so much, I thought it was documented in one of the videos or newspaper articles.

If Max was truly 'brain dead' an MRI could not show that. You have a fantastic point about him having a severe spinal cord injury. It would have to be up high in the c-spine. (cervical area). It is a logical conclusion that makes much more sense.

From this article, which I have printed for my patients before:
http://www.spinalinjury.net/html/_spinal_cord_101.html

Very high injuries (C-1, C-2) can result in a loss of many involuntary functions including the ability to breathe, necessitating breathing aids such as mechanical ventilators or diaphragmatic pacemakers. Other effects of SCI may include low blood pressure, inability to regulate blood pressure effectively, reduced control of body temperature, inability to sweat below the level of injury, and chronic pain
How many people have SCI? Who are they? Approximately 450,000 people live with SCI in the US. There are about 10,000 new SCI's every year; the majority of them (82%) involve males between the ages of 16-30. These injuries result from motor vehicle accidents (36%), violence (28.9%), or falls (21.2%).Quadriplegia is slightly more common than paraplegia.

Also:

Overall, 85% of SCI patients who survive the first 24 hours are still alive 10 years later. The most common cause of death is due to diseases of the respiratory system, with most of these being due to pneumonia. In fact, pneumonia is the single leading cause of death throughout the entire 15 year period immediately following SCI for all age groups, both males and females, whites and non-whites, and persons with quadriplegia.

Now it gets sticky. If Max did have a high C-spine injury, vs being 'brain dead', the MRI makes sense, but the quickness that JS and DS used to make the decision to terminate life support for a 6 year old, DS's only child, shocks me. People with SCI, often show improvement up to 18 months after the injury. If there was enough of a reason to do an additional MRI, how did the parents move so quickly from diagnosing and treating, to termination of life support? This is truly something I have not seen before. Not with a child.

It often takes weeks to years for parents to agree to let their childs life end. I am not making judgements here folks, it is just that in 19 years, I have seen a lot of anger, grief and despair in situations such as this. Even with DS being a psychologist, she is not a medical doctor (psychiatrist). Her medical knowledge would be different than a physician. She could maybe look at the situation more in a clinical way, but she was still Max's MOM. Again, no judgements here, just surprise.

Remember the 'rest in peace Maxie' message on GS facebook? That was before his 'death' or impending death, had been announced. Remember on an early thread, we were asking if he had passed and it hadn't yet been announced?

Does this have anything to do with anything? I'm truly not sure, but there is a lot in this case that makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Many parents feel that stopping life support is 'killing' their child. JS and DS worked through the denial stage VERY quickly imho. It is surprising that they both were in agreement on the course to take.





My gosh, I thought our alarm system was 'over reactive'. We got a key fob due to it being too quick to alarm. We arm the alarm after closing the door with the key fob. Upon our return we turn off the alarm with the key fob, prior to opening the door. Much less stress!!:floorlaugh:

There were multiple major media reports that Max was "brain dead", although Rady Children's would not confirm or deny due to HIPAA privacy law. As you pointed out, parents would be highly unlikely to take a child off life support d/t a cervical spine injury, since the child could possibly live many years even with such an injury. The more logical conclusion is that Max had been certified brain dead and doctors had the unpleasant task of helping JS & DS accept that fact. As for the MRI, it can be used as one of several tests to confirm brain death, although the MRI alone would not be used for that purpose.

 

[Paladine]

You err in your perspective view.

The balcony is to the left of the table not the right. The alleged hanging area is opposite of the broken leg.

Using the images below

The body would have been against the wall, If AS cut the rope from the second floor then the body would have fell to the ground and the direct path would have been to the grass and I pointed out.

If he cut the rope from below then He and the body would still have been left of the table and the cord following that same path as indicated.

But what visual indicator are you using the theorize the body breaking the table leg? and where is the leg?

Now, this post is worth a repost, imo...what great detail, thanks so much for the graphics :great: ...time to ponder.

 

[Paladine]

There were multiple major media reports that Max was "brain dead", although Rady Children's would not confirm or deny due to HIPAA privacy law. As you pointed out, parents would be highly unlikely to take a child off life support d/t a cervical spine injury, since the child could possibly live many years even with such an injury. The more logical conclusion is that Max had been certified brain dead and doctors had the unpleasant task of helping JS & DS accept that fact. As for the MRI, it can be used as one of several tests to confirm brain death, although the MRI alone would not be used for that purpose.

Now, one wouldn't nesscessarily negate the other, I would think...someone could have a spinal cord injury, c1-c2, and also be 'brain dead', couldn't they?

And RBBM: We've just seen SunnieRN, who is an RN and a longtime poster, say that MRI's are not used to confirm brain activity, so to speak...may I ask, where you get your info from?

 

[Morag]

Depending upon what type of rope was used, there should be some tiny bits of rope, little shreds, in the location where it was actually cut. The crime scene technicians will have looked for, and ideally, found these shreds. On the concrete path, in the grass, on the bedroom carpet...

 

[Paladine]

I am honestly not sure where the diagnosis of Max being brain dead came from? I have read it so much, I thought it was documented in one of the videos or newspaper articles.

If Max was truly 'brain dead' an MRI could not show that. You have a fantastic point about him having a severe spinal cord injury. It would have to be up high in the c-spine. (cervical area). It is a logical conclusion that makes much more sense.

From this article, which I have printed for my patients before:
http://www.spinalinjury.net/html/_spinal_cord_101.html

Very high injuries (C-1, C-2) can result in a loss of many involuntary functions including the ability to breathe, necessitating breathing aids such as mechanical ventilators or diaphragmatic pacemakers. Other effects of SCI may include low blood pressure, inability to regulate blood pressure effectively, reduced control of body temperature, inability to sweat below the level of injury, and chronic pain
How many people have SCI? Who are they? Approximately 450,000 people live with SCI in the US. There are about 10,000 new SCI's every year; the majority of them (82%) involve males between the ages of 16-30. These injuries result from motor vehicle accidents (36%), violence (28.9%), or falls (21.2%).Quadriplegia is slightly more common than paraplegia.

Also:

Overall, 85% of SCI patients who survive the first 24 hours are still alive 10 years later. The most common cause of death is due to diseases of the respiratory system, with most of these being due to pneumonia. In fact, pneumonia is the single leading cause of death throughout the entire 15 year period immediately following SCI for all age groups, both males and females, whites and non-whites, and persons with quadriplegia.

Now it gets sticky. If Max did have a high C-spine injury, vs being 'brain dead', the MRI makes sense, but the quickness that JS and DS used to make the decision to terminate life support for a 6 year old, DS's only child, shocks me. People with SCI, often show improvement up to 18 months after the injury. If there was enough of a reason to do an additional MRI, how did the parents move so quickly from diagnosing and treating, to termination of life support? This is truly something I have not seen before. Not with a child.

It often takes weeks to years for parents to agree to let their childs life end. I am not making judgements here folks, it is just that in 19 years, I have seen a lot of anger, grief and despair in situations such as this. Even with DS being a psychologist, she is not a medical doctor (psychiatrist). Her medical knowledge would be different than a physician. She could maybe look at the situation more in a clinical way, but she was still Max's MOM. Again, no judgements here, just surprise.

Remember the 'rest in peace Maxie' message on GS facebook? That was before his 'death' or impending death, had been announced. Remember on an early thread, we were asking if he had passed and it hadn't yet been announced?

Does this have anything to do with anything? I'm truly not sure, but there is a lot in this case that makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Many parents feel that stopping life support is 'killing' their child. JS and DS worked through the denial stage VERY quickly imho. It is surprising that they both were in agreement on the course to take.

My gosh, I thought our alarm system was 'over reactive'. We got a key fob due to it being too quick to alarm. We arm the alarm after closing the door with the key fob. Upon our return we turn off the alarm with the key fob, prior to opening the door. Much less stress!!:floorlaugh:

Maybe there was no 'decision'...maybe he just died...?

The most important factor that determines the individual’s long-term functional abilities after injury to the cervical spine is how the injury was managed initially.

Fracture of the cervical spine is a break in one or more of the seven bones (vertebrae C1 through C7) in the neck (cervical) region. Cervical spine injuries primarily are the result of traumatic injuries to the head and neck. The most frequent injuries result from motor vehicle collisions, falls, diving into shallow water, and gunshot wounds to the neck. An individual with an unstable fracture is at risk for spinal cord injury unless the fracture is stabilized. Fractures often occur in conjunction with dislocations in which the vertebral segments become dislodged and the overall alignment of the spine changes. Traumatic spondylolisthesis of C2 (hangman's fracture) is a type of fracture-dislocation.

The majority of cervical spine fractures occur at either the upper or lower end of the cervical spine. Fracture of the C1 or C2 vertebra can be fatal. Cervical spine fracture(s) may cause instability, which can lead to spinal cord compression and neurologic disability.

We're still left with: Was there a spinal cord injury, where was it, and how did it occur? All in that autopsy report, I hope...:banghead:

http://www.mdguidelines.com/fracture-cervical-spine-without-spinal-cord-injury

 

[scorekeeper]

Checking in to see if we have had any reports from LE......nope....follow the rope

The rope was not cut from the room or the top of the balcony. look at post #535. The rope is dark color not white. There is probably 7 feet of rope there or 1/2 way down way (if the balcony bottom was 15 feet tall).

Since the scene does not necessary match the account given by AS, would he have said what he did, if he had commited the crime?

Would he have said what he did if he was involved in the "staging"?

 

[Paladine]

Checking in to see if we have had any reports from LE......nope....follow the rope

The rope was not cut from the room or the top of the balcony. look at post #535. The rope is dark color not white. There is probably 7 feet of rope there or 1/2 way down way (if the balcony bottom was 15 feet tall).

Since the scene does not necessary match the account given by AS, would he have said what he did, if he had commited the crime?

Would he have said what he did if he was involved in the "staging"?

These rope length calculation posts intrigue me...so informative, hope ya'll keep it up, peeps...