Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #3

[Lolliknows]

She ignored the call from Nina, when there was an ongoing family medical crisis, did she not?

Ignoring a call from Nina, the twin sister of DS, who was wanting to grill her for a more detailed explanation and ignoring a call from her BF / lover are hardly the same thing. In fact they’re opposite and can’t possibly be viewed as a comparison IMO.

 

[Lolliknows]

Rebecca was texting with Mary at the time Nina was there, a little before 10 pm. She would have heard Nina’s call and seen Nina’s texts that she was sending. She purposely ignored her. Why would she ignore Nina when Max was in the ICU?

Nina wasn’t a source of information about Max’’s current condition, she had no reason to inform R if anything. In contrast she was seeking information from R about what happened that could possibly explain how Max really fell. N wanted a blow by blow detailed explanation.

 

[screecher]

The AR didn't report strangulation. If it did, I sure didn't see it. If Lucas was in any way derelict in his professional role, there was nothing preventing Dr. Wecht from filing a complaint against his medical license. He didn't and Dr. Lucas is practicing.

The "AR" also didn't say 'oops, so very sorry, I dropped and 'oops, squashed Ms Zahau's esophagus when I twisted my heel into it" either.

Hey, Dr. Lucas. Do spill. WTH happened to Ms Zahau's esophagus???

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

 

[Lolliknows]

Thank you but that is hearsay. Do you have a document or MSM you can point me to? TIA

Lezah was referring to the lead investigator for the SDSO who admitted during testimony in updating JS, 7 or 8 times during the investigation, then back peddled when challenged as to why she would be updating a family member, added the comment, “only to question him if I needed some info.” Ouch busted. IMO

 

[Lilibet]

Nina wasn’t a source of information about Max’’s current condition, she had no reason to inform R if anything. In contrast she was seeking information from R about what happened that could possibly explain how Max really fell. N wanted a blow by blow detailed explanation.

Agreed. I can’t imagine that Rebecca really wanted to have a conversation with Nina at that point. She must have been exhausted. I’ve certainly refused to answer non-essential calls or even calls from dear friends who are long-winded when I don’t feel like talking. What difference does it make that Rebecca didn’t answer Nina? It’s not evidence of suicide.

 

[Lolliknows]

Rebecca was never unconscious. Her foot prints on the balcony and the tightening end of the rope in her hand prove that. IMO.

Does anyone have the link showing only 1 very small partial print of Rebecca’s foot when AS could have struggled trying to get her over the balcony railing? I was flabbergasted looking at those photos. I’ll try to find it for you Jessica.

 

[Lezah]

The detectives saw the balcony with their own eyes. They had no doubt it was where Rebecca went over the railing. The picture clearly shows that, IMO.

Re your comment on the balcony rail...

To the best of my recollection and after checking my notes, during testimony when the lead detective was asked about fingerprints on the balcony rail she said there were no fingerprints taken on the balcony rail.

(The police apparently returned several weeks later to seek additionally evidence, but did not to lift prints from the balcony rail then either, as she explained that the weather would have probably degraded any available prints ( as it was outside)

When asked about the footprints she said “ no proper analysis was done of the prints”. When asked why she said it was because “ they looked consistent with RZ’s foot size” and also said it was felt unnecessary as ‘there was no indication of a physical struggle’

However, the balcony rail was apparently swabbed for DNA, but there was found to be none present when it was tested.

She was then asked about the 11” gap in the thick film of dust on the balcony rail, and was the body checked for any transfer, she said not to her knowledge and referred to the medical examiner.

Also, during the motion experts testimony, a demonstration showed that RZs center of gravity was too low for her to gain enough impetus to fall over the balcony of her own volition, also compounded when combined with her legs being bound.

( There had been a ‘demonstative’ of the balcony floor and rail set up in the court to show the jury.) The expert had said/ demonstrated it was a scientific / physical impossibility for her to get over with her hands and feet bound.

The defense then argued that RZ could ‘lay her weight’ on her belly and ‘roll’ herself forward’ and over the balcony, when she had gone far enough forward, eventually, she would roll beyond a tipping point, and by kicking her tied legs up behind her she could gain enough impetus to go over the rail.

However, in redirect by Greer, photographic visuals of RZ naked torso were then shown to the court. RZ’s belly and hip region shows no superficial scraping injury which would be evident if the ‘rolling and scraping’ motions as were suggested to get over over the rough balcony rail were played out. ( close up images of the balcony rail were shown and they looked quite ‘ragged’ and uneven in places.) her front belly/torso was also totally clean and showed no dirt or dust of any description.

(It was suggested in the testimony process by Greer that the missing rail dust could have been a result of wiping )

So there was no bodily injury, superficial or otherwise, no dirt transfer, no DNA on the rail, no analysis of the footprints - and the rail was not tested for fingerprints.

I will leave you to draw your own conclusions of the balcony rail evidence.

( paraphrazing from my recollection, my notes and my opinion of what was presented)

 

[screecher]

Agreed. I can’t imagine that Rebecca really wanted to have a conversation with Nina at that point. She must have been exhausted. I’ve certainly refused to answer non-essential calls or even calls from dear friends who are long-winded when I don’t feel like talking. What difference does it make that Rebecca didn’t answer Nina? It’s not evidence of suicide.

It's an impungement upon RZ's character, that's why.

In other words, a 'trashing' of RZ's character, spirit.

Some delight in doing so.



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[screecher]

Haha! I can see the scene now:

LEO: Adam, directly before you found Rebecca hanging, did you, by any chance, masturbate to *advertiser censored*?
Adam: Well, I say this with much embarrassment and hesitation, but in the interest of being completely transparent: Yes. Yes, I did.
LEO: Whelp, just wondering. Carry on, then. Truly appreciate your candor.

Bwahahaha

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[Lezah]

Quote Originally Posted by Jessica2012
Thank you but that is hearsay. Do you have a document or MSM you can point me to? TIA

Lezah was referring to the lead investigator for the SDSO who admitted during testimony in updating JS, 7 or 8 times during the investigation, then back peddled when challenged as to why she would be updating a family member, added the comment, “only to question him if I needed some info.” Ouch busted. IMO

Thanks guys for feeding back my info. Yes, the lead detective did state this in her testimony. It will appear in the trial transcript.

Important info...

You will also see in the trial transcript that the lead detective stated that upon arrival she viewed the scene as a homicide. She then described the scene as being that of a ‘suspicious death’, and in her career experience the circumstances were ‘unfamiliar’ to her - and she had (quote) “ never seen anything like this...”

She testified that AS was an immediate person of interest and a potential suspect.

I think this is an important factor to consider. Contrary to the supposition of many that this was ‘obviously a suicide’, the lead detective - with 27 years experience apparently - didn’t concur.

 

[Verboten]

Quote Originally Posted by Jessica2012
Thank you but that is hearsay. Do you have a document or MSM you can point me to? TIA



Thanks guys for feeding back my info. Yes, the lead detective did state this in her testimony. It will appear in the trial transcript.

Important info...

You will also see in the trial transcript that the lead detective stated that upon arrival she viewed the scene as a homicide. She then described the scene as being that of a ‘suspicious death’, and in her career experience the circumstances were ‘unfamiliar’ to her - and she had (quote) “ never seen anything like this...”

She testified that AS was an immediate person of interest and a potential suspect.

I think this is an important factor to consider. Contrary to the supposition of many that this was ‘obviously a suicide’, the lead detective - with 27 years experience apparently - didn’t concur.

Yes, this is very important to keep in mind. Additionally, the officer who wrote the Probable Cause for the Search Warrant indicated his experience also led him to believe this was a homicide.

 

[Lezah]

Quote Originally Posted by MyBelle View Post
According the A.R., Dr. Wecht and Dr. Davis, RZ's hyoid bone was fractured. The hyoid bone is in the neck.

Yes, it is, but knowing where in the neck and what it does may help you see why it’s more commonly fractured in strangulation deaths.

To help you visualize, perhaps the hyoid bone would be better described as a ‘tongue stabilizer’, situated tucked away behind your chin, at the very front front of the uppermost neck. In simple terms it helps to control the floor of your mouth and your tongue.

It suspended between muscles, so it kind of floats up there at the front of your neck, so due to this position, it’s is not very susceptible to fracture. This is why in a suspected case of murder, a fractured hyoid strongly indicates strangulation ( the bone is softer in a child than an adult, so less likely to fracture)

It is shaped like a ‘U’ and has two thin, extended ‘horns’. Only one of these ‘horns’ was reported fractured in RZ AR.

I hope this helps explain it a bit better K_Z is great at explaining these aspects and maybe will post some feedback too.

 

[Lilibet]

Thanks guys for feeding back my info. Yes, the lead detective did state this in her testimony. It will appear in the trial transcript.

Important info...

You will also see in the trial transcript that the lead detective stated that upon arrival she viewed the scene as a homicide. She then described the scene as being that of a ‘suspicious death’, and in her career experience the circumstances were ‘unfamiliar’ to her - and she had (quote) “ never seen anything like this...”

She testified that AS was an immediate person of interest and a potential suspect.

I think this is an important factor to consider. Contrary to the supposition of many that this was ‘obviously a suicide’, the lead detective - with 27 years experience apparently - didn’t concur.

BBM

Yes, this is very important to keep in mind. Additionally, the officer who wrote the Probable Cause for the Search Warrant indicated his experience also led him to believe this was a homicide.

BBM

So here we have a lead detective and the officer writing the probable cause for a search warrant both viewing the scene as a homicide upon arrival. AS was an immediate POI. We have to ask why, seven weeks later, after an investigation that was less than thorough even though it supposedly involved many investigators, suddenly it’s suicide. I remember how shocked I was along with residents of San Diego at that finding. It defied credulity and LE had to put on quite a show to try to even convince themselves it was suicide. It didn’t convince me and most other people.

I’ve followed many cases on WS that took months before an arrest was made. Members on the threads were angrily accusing LE of doing nothing. But lo and behold, LE was actually quietly conducting a thorough and detailed investigation, and eventually got their man (or woman). The arrest of Teresa Siever’s husband Mark for orchestrating her murder by two of his buddies from another state is just one example of incredible police work (and a tip from a brave witness) that took three months. I’m sure we can all come up with other cases that carefully, logically and slowly collected and examined evidence over even an longer time before drawing a conclusion.

Not San Diego! Just for starters, SDSO left Rebecca’s body uncovered and decomposing in the hot sun all day. They let too much time go by to retrieve the infamous message from JS that “broke her”. Phone messages between the rest of the family weren’t investigated. The guest house wasn’t given much attention. JS explained away the panties in the trash...and they didn’t go further with it. The overturned chair didn’t count as a sign of a possible struggle, so the toe print on the balcony wasn’t compared to her. As Lezah pointed out just above, assumptions were made about how RZ got over the balcony rail that didn’t match marks on her body or marks on the rail. These are just a few of the many gaps in the investigation.

So how did this investigation get derailed by SDSO from homicide, a suspicious death with a POI...to suicide and where we are today? What was the internal departmental tipping point when murder gave way to suicide? I hope and pray that the powers that be will reopen this investigation regardless of the trial outcome. There are too many missing pieces, too much potential for favors and cover-ups, not to mention the strange flip flop by Dina and Nina when they were dropped from the suit...after years of bitter accusations.

It’s hard for me to understand why those taking the side of suicide can’t see the many loose ends that need to be tied up before suicide could have been the final judgement. Would anyone whose loved one died like this want less than the best possible investigation? I’m not a big fan of lawsuits, but this is one that needed to happen.
JMO and please forgive the treatise!

 

[stmarysmead]

It's an impungement upon RZ's character, that's why.

In other words, a 'trashing' of RZ's character, spirit. Y

Some delight in doing so.



Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

We are debating whether this case is a suicide or murder. In discussing suicide, there is nothing inappropriate with looking at an individuals emotional state, stresses in her life, or personal history. Emotional hyperbole is just a “shut-up” manuver to make people who don’t agree go away. But WS exists to provide discussion...DISCUSSION...and debate.

The murder proponents are doing the same analysis with Adam. I don’t think they are doing it because they “delight” in trashing Adam’s character and spirit. I think they are attempting to make yr case for murder.

This is what I meant about the emotional undercurrent in this discussion. No, RZ and her life, mistakes and issues are not off bounds (Not unless Tricia decides to make her Board function this way)

RZ is not, by virtue of her death...now elevated to human perfection. AS has been convicted of nothing. He may be a victim too...of false accusation. Like the years of ugly posts here about a grieving Mother who lost her only child...were false accusation. I understand Tricia wants them identified and removed now. That is gracious and appropriate.

The Romano sisters were victims of false accusation. Mr Greer’s apology affirms that. Yet that was part of the discussion. No one was trying to “trash their character and spirit.”

WS is a discussion Board and Tricia and the Mods strive mightily to be fair, even when the majority might desire that no one be allowed to post unless they agree with majority opinion.

 

[stmarysmead]

BBM


BBM

So here we have a lead detective and the officer writing the probable cause for a search warrant both viewing the scene as a homicide upon arrival. AS was an immediate POI. We have to ask why, seven weeks later, after an investigation that was less than thorough even though it supposedly involved many investigators, suddenly it’s suicide. I remember how shocked I was along with residents of San Diego at that finding. It defied credulity and LE had to put on quite a show to try to even convince themselves it was suicide. It didn’t convince me and most other people.

I’ve followed many cases on WS that took months before an arrest was made. Members on the threads were angrily accusing LE of doing nothing. But lo and behold, LE was actually quietly conducting a thorough and detailed investigation, and eventually got their man (or woman). The arrest of Teresa Siever’s husband Mark for orchestrating her murder by two of his buddies from another state is just one example of incredible police work (and a tip from a brave witness) that took three months. I’m sure we can all come up with other cases that carefully, logically and slowly collected and examined evidence over even an longer time before drawing a conclusion.

Not San Diego! Just for starters, SDSO left Rebecca’s body uncovered and decomposing in the hot sun all day. They let too much time go by to retrieve the infamous message from JS that “broke her”. Phone messages between the rest of the family weren’t investigated. The guest house wasn’t given much attention. JS explained away the panties in the trash...and they didn’t go further with it. The overturned chair didn’t count as a sign of a possible struggle, so the toe print on the balcony wasn’t compared to her. As Lezah pointed out just above, assumptions were made about how RZ got over the balcony rail that didn’t match marks on her body or marks on the rail. These are just a few of the many gaps in the investigation.

So how did this investigation get derailed by SDSO from homicide, a suspicious death with a POI...to suicide and where we are today? What was the internal departmental tipping point when murder gave way to suicide? I hope and pray that the powers that be will reopen this investigation regardless of the trial outcome. There are too many missing pieces, too much potential for favors and cover-ups, not to mention the strange flip flop by Dina and Nina when they were dropped from the suit...after years of bitter accusations.

It’s hard for me to understand why those taking the side of suicide can’t see the many loose ends that need to be tied up before suicide could have been the final judgement. Would anyone whose loved one died like this want less than the best possible investigation? I’m not a big fan of lawsuits, but this is one that needed to happen.
JMO and please forgive the treatise!

This is a great post. Thank you for such a rational and informative statement of yr point of view.

The fact that the investigators began with the premise of murder is important from my point of view as well. I’m glad they did that. They had a very large group of investigators focused on this case and that says to me, that RZ death mattered to them and was given their full attention.

Was the investigation as good as it could have been? No. I doubt any investigation can ever meet the standards of a large group of Internet posters who can focus on just one case...and think of all kinds of things that should have been done. But, IMO, the overall investigation was adequate.

At some point, finding NO evidence of Adam’s involvement, should they have looked at the possibility of an intruder? Maybe they did. But they did not then, and in my opinion, do not now...have a case of murder that they could warrant indicting anyone...including AS.

The case against AS, in my opinion, is well, someone murdered her, and you are the only one left in the house. The rest is just theories. Maybe this...maybe that.

I know many here believe that JS influenced the investigation. But thinking that and proving that are two different things. I wouldn’t EVER put that on an Internet Board in today’s litiginous society...because there has been NO proof. Nor could I use that unproven thinking as a factor in deciding AS is a murderer.

I think the tipping point was not finding evidence of anyone else in that room or any other identifiable fingerprints or dna on key pieces of evidence. At that point, looking at her diary entries, the child falling just days before while in her care, started the turn toward seeing if they could prove suicide. The re-enactment gave the suicide theory credibility for them.

The Zahau family has made this a high profile case...even to exhuming their sister during sweeps week. That put a lot of pressure on the investigative authorities. Suddenly the whole nation was looking. To me, that’s an equal power to anything JS could ever do. The power of the media...criticizing, analyzing. Yet the investigative powers have remained firm.

An emotional jury might find for the plaintiffs...in Mr Greer’s interview with Tricia I think he used words to the effect that the jury might want to “help” the Z family. They may well decide against AS.

But my guess is that the criminal case will not be re-opened. Not unless there could suddenly be more evidence against someone. And I’m pretty certain, that if the plaintiffs win, there will be an appeal.

 

[Tortoise]

Do we know what these instructions specified in regard to the evidentiary value of the death certificate and autopsy report?

I see my question wasn't answered so it's fair to assume we probably don't have this information.

Info from original post -
Jury Instructions were filed on Feb 26th.
Jury Instructions were withdrawn on Thursday Mar 22nd.
New Jury Instructions were filed by Defense, date unknown
Plaintiff's Objections to Defendant's Special Jury Instructions re. evidentiary value of death certificate and Autopsy Report were filed on Monday March 26th.

I'm going to make a guess that Plaintiff's objections were filed when Lucas failed to testify. I'm going to make a further guess that Lucas' failure to testify has given the Plaintiff cause to argue that the evidentiary value of the death certificate and autopsy report is reduced to nil in the suit, because the man that signed off on them did not testify to defend his sign-off on the manner and cause of death in a suit that disputes his findings.

Of course my guesses could be wrong.

 

[*Lash*]

]

It was confirmed through Nina’s phone records and the accounts of the other people staying at Dinas that that phone call happened at 9:41, not 10:41.


http://www.cbs8.com/story/15982091/exclusive-max-shacknais-aunt-talks-about-coronado-mansion-deaths


Here are the calls and texts on Rebecca’s phone bill that show she was there when Nina sent a text at 9:41.

Hi Jessica2012 :wave:

BBM - Could you provide a link to the accounts of other people staying at the house?

TIA

 

[stmarysmead]

Hi Jessica2012 :wave:

BBM - Could you provide a link to the accounts of other people staying at the house?

TIA

I think phone records are pretty sufficient. I think RZ was already spiraling into her suicidal depression. She could not handle anything more. In the San Diego paper about testimony about her personal messages...there was a quote “I have no one to talk to.” I can’t copy it because I’m over my limit for those articles.

So RZ even felt she couldn’t confide in her family. She must have felt very isolated.

 

[stmarysmead]

I see my question wasn't answered so it's fair to assume we probably don't have this information.

Info from original post -
Jury Instructions were filed on Feb 26th.
Jury Instructions were withdrawn on Thursday Mar 22nd.
New Jury Instructions were filed by Defense, date unknown
Plaintiff's Objections to Defendant's Special Jury Instructions re. evidentiary value of death certificate and Autopsy Report were filed on Monday March 26th.

I'm going to make a guess that Plaintiff's objections were filed when Lucas failed to testify. I'm going to make a further guess that Lucas' failure to testify has given the Plaintiff cause to argue that the evidentiary value of the death certificate and autopsy report is reduced to nil in the suit, because the man that signed off on them did not testify to defend his sign-off on the manner and cause of death in a suit that disputes his findings.

Of course my guesses could be wrong.

What were the original jury instructions?

 

[*Lash*]

I think phone records are pretty sufficient. I think RZ was already spiraling into her suicidal depression. She could not handle anything more. In the San Diego paper about testimony about her personal messages...there was a quote “I have no one to talk to.” I can’t copy it because I’m over my limit for those articles.

So RZ even felt she couldn’t confide in her family. She must have felt very isolated.

All due respect, there is still a discrepancy in the phone records that has never been clarified. RZ shows 10 something. NR photo copies show 9 something. I am interested in the “accounts of others” staying at DS, not the actual phone records.