Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #3

[Imp]

There would have been no problem in her leaving. If Jonah was angry about Max and blaming it on RZ, all she needed to do was pack her things and move back with her sister/family or return to AZ. She was a very attractive young, healthy, intelligent person with education, skills and job experience.

That's probably what she intended to do. Perhaps her killer knew her plans and thought it was his one last chance to indulge his sexual fantasies.

BBM. Wow! This definitely falls in line with my theory about AS and what happened that night.

 

[Betty P]

Timeline of Rigor Mortis
There are many factors to consider when examining rigor mortis in order to come to any conclusions or findings about a person's death. This is the general timeline that rigor mortis will follow under regular conditions:

0 to 8 Hours: The body starts to stiffen, but is still movable
8 to 12 Hours: Muscles become completely stiff
12 to 24 Hours: Muscles stay stiff
24 to 36 Hours: Stiffness dissipates and muscles become flexible

https://study.com/academy/lesson/rigor-mortis-definition-timeline-stages.html

It is worth noting that lividity begins to work through the deceased within thirty minutes of their heart stopping and can last up to twelve hours. Only up to the first six hours of death can lividity be altered by moving the body. After the six hour mark lividity is fixed as blood vessels begin to break down within the body.
http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/rigor-mortis-and-lividity.html

It was estimated by Greer and Dr Wecht that her time of death was sometime around 11:30 or midnight. So, yeah. That's 12 hours. It's been theorized that, given lividity on her chest area, she lay somewhere (probably the murder room) for some time. If hogtied, she would have been laying on her stomach/chest for a while. She may have been moved again before hanging.

Having Rebecca's nude body lie exposed in the sun for 13 hrs. is believed by many to be a means of altering some of these natural processes.

 

[Lezah]

Anybody know where these two pieces of evidence were found, and if they were tested to determine what the red stains were?

#3 Paper towel w/red stains
#12 Tissue w/red stain

Thinking the tissue could be what’s on the floor between the knives in the evidence photo. Or maybe not since it doesn’t have a number like the other evidence. Perhaps another piece of missed evidence.

I always found it very interesting that RZ’s DNA was found INSIDE the plastic bag....but not outside....no fingerprints inside, ...and no fingerprints OR DNA on the outside of the bag...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Betty P]

Mr Greer is going to call me in about an hour so now is the time if you have any questions for him.

Can he give us an idea of why he thinks the defense pulled the ME and other SDSO personnel as witnesses at the last moment? Any idea how that came about?

What are the strongest points he intends to make to the jury in his closing arguments on Monday?

 

[Imp]

I think you have hit the nail right on the head here!

The hogtie evidence was powerful. I believe the fact the rope length also matches exactly the correct distance between her hands and feet was one of those stand out moments in the courtroom for the jury.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks, Lezah. I've always thought this was murder vs. suicide, but when I learned about the ends of rope inexplicably tied to the wrist and ankle bindings, and that the rope was precisely the right length (before it was cut) for a hogtie, and then I connected the dots to her bent legs, my response was to be even angrier at the whole pack of co-conspirators involved in doing and covering up this murder.

Imo, even if there are members of the jury who initially thought suicide vs. murder, they had the same reaction I did. It's simple common sense. No human being hanging from a dead drop of 9'2" for presumably 4 or 5 hours before "discovery" would have bent knees. The extra rope on the bindings + the bent knees = murder. Case closed, imo.

 

[Imp]

Mr Greer is going to call me in about an hour so now is the time if you have any questions for him.

Hi Tricia,

I have no questions, just a million "suggestions" for his closing that I'm sure he doesn't need! Just tell him he has my undying gratitude for taking this on, and I'll be with him in spirit on Monday.

 

[Imp]

I always found it very interesting that RZ’s DNA was found INSIDE the plastic bag....but not outside....no fingerprints inside, ...and no fingerprints OR DNA on the outside of the bag...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Rebecca's last hours on this earth give me nightmares. Attacked while naked, taped, bound, hogtied, sexually assaulted, hung by a noose. My God.

 

[Lezah]

Hi Lezah :wave:

You might find what you’re looking for in Rebecca’s AR. Especially the first pages of the 3 page investigative report. Hope this helps.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/64114521/Reports

Thanks so much Lash...


So, the lead detective testified at trial the photographs were taken around 10 am to my best recollection.

...the ME arrived much later as evidenced in the reports.

But the photographs show deep lividity on the sides of the legs while RZ is situated on the grass...plus, the shadowing on the photographs of the body appears to be consistent with the sun position for late morning...

If lividity is already strong and fixed on the sides of the legs, with blanching from the ground at 10am, she would need to have been on the grass for some substantial time, wouldn’t she?

but AS said he cut her down at 6.45am...

We are all assuming the photographs were taken at the same time as the ME arrived, late in the day, but that is apparently not the case from the evidence presented IMO.

Thoughts?

(PS - off point - Why does the medical examiners investigative report ( page 1) say RZ was last seen alive at 21.50? AS testified he went to bed much earlier...am I missing something?)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Harmony 2]

It was estimated by Greer and Dr Wecht that her time of death was sometime around 11:30 or midnight. So, yeah. That's 12 hours. It's been theorized that, given lividity on her chest area, she lay somewhere (probably the murder room) for some time. If hogtied, she would have been laying on her stomach/chest for a while. She may have been moved again before hanging.

Having Rebecca's nude body lie exposed in the sun for 13 hrs. is believed by many to be a means of altering some of these natural processes.

When allegedly cut down at 6:30am her body was still movable according to the rigor mortis timeline. The elements that alter the natural processes had not occurred yet until later when the full sun was out. I am probably wrong as I am not a forensic pathologist.

July 13: Adam Shacknai calls 911 at 6:30 a.m. reporting the discovery of a nude woman hanging from the second-story balcony with her hands and feet bound.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/A-Timeline-of-the-Deaths-at-Spreckels-Mansion-125827638.html

 

[Lezah]

After being bound, how would she get a knife?

Exactly! Good point! that’s why it evidences it’s not suicide...does this mean you are modifying your opinion?




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Mica]

Can he give us an idea of why he thinks the defense pulled the ME and other SDSO personnel as witnesses at the last moment? Any idea how that came about?

What are the strongest points he intends to make to the jury in his closing arguments on Monday?

Good questions Betty P.

 

[Lezah]

Tricia, questions for Mr Greer

Can he request rebuttal at this late stage ...and If it is possible will he be doing so?

What are his feelings re the ME not being called?

How long is his closing argument planning to take?

Send him our fondest wishes and prayers too please?

Thank you very much






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Betty P]

Good questions Betty P.

Thanks! I thought I would put them out there, though he may not be able to answer them right now. Like everyone else here, I'm so appreciative of him taking on this case. It was a colossal amount of work with no reward. Greer is a saint, IMO.

 

[Lilibet]

Can he give us an idea of why he thinks the defense pulled the ME and other SDSO personnel as witnesses at the last moment? Any idea how that came about?

What are the strongest points he intends to make to the jury in his closing arguments on Monday?

BBM

I don’t know, but I’d rather Mr Greer didn’t reveal his strongest points from his closing argument publicly. Keep the defense guessing!

A HUGE thank you to you Mr. Greer. You’ve done all you could for Rebecca and her family.

 

[justice be served]

Tricia, I believe it is important for this thread to generate questions for Mr. Greer. However, I think he should keep his closing arguments detail off the record for now. IMO the defense reads these threads and may react accordingly to bolster their case.

The defense and the players on Adam's side IMO have not presented a fair fight - I think they have played dirty and it started within the first 24 hours of Rebecca's death. Let's not give them anything. JMO

 

[justice be served]

BBM

I don’t know, but I’d rather Mr Greer didn’t reveal his strongest points from his closing argument publicly. Keep the defense guessing!

A HUGE thank you to you Mr. Greer. You’ve done all you could for Rebecca and her family.

We were definitely tracking one another's thoughts about this! And Keith Greer - you are a hero!

 

[justice be served]

Tricia, for Mr. Greer:

Is it possible to make it clear in closing arguments that the ME left Rebecca unattended for those 12-13 hours? I believe that fact tells a story in and of itself. And it is important that the jury knows it. Maybe it already came out in testimony but if it didn't then it clinches for me that the officials had an agenda from the get-go.

 

[MyBelle]

Exactly! Good point! that’s why it evidences it’s not suicide...does this mean you are modifying your opinion?




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

There is no evidence RZ was ever hog-tied. That particular expert likely helped the defense more than the plaintiff when he admitted that the knots were fairly simple and commonly used and that gorillas, children, birds and just about anybody would be able to tie the knots (to paraphrase.) JMO

 

[stmarysmead]

Exactly! Good point! that’s why it evidences it’s not suicide...does this mean you are modifying your opinion?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Well, In terms of the plaintiffs case, even if I did lean toward murder, the instructions have me boxed in. I definitely do not believe AS is guilty, so it’s all or nothing, isn’t it?

 

[justice be served]

When allegedly cut down at 6:30am her body was still movable according to the rigor mortis timeline. The elements that alter the natural processes had not occurred yet until later when the full sun was out. I am probably wrong as I am not a forensic pathologist.



https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/A-Timeline-of-the-Deaths-at-Spreckels-Mansion-125827638.html

BBM. Well, according to your window of time for movability, she was in the last hour of movability which to me seems pretty darn close to stiff (I apologize for how awful this is to talk about as it pains me). With those who have experience with this, my question would be this:

If Rebecca had allegedly been hanging for those seven hours or so, and Adam placing her on the ground approximately one hour before being entirely stiff, would her body have been so flexible at that point to bend that much simply by placing her on the ground? I interpret the timeline of rigidity as being progressive - that you can't look at it as segments/phases of time. I don't think I have expressed myself very well here.

And could Adam have been trying to exert force on her body during the grunts in the call to try to straighten out her body once it occurred to him that her posture didn't indicate a straight hanging?

I apologize to all for this graphic discussion and if it is too much please delete it.