Remains in Trunk and the A's

[suepitzl]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed.........I think it is possible that one of the A's disposed of the remains in the woods.....Hear me out.....LE did not search nor take possession of the pontiac until the evening of the 17th of July. When CA cleaned out the car (washed the pants etc) isn't it plausible that she also checked the trunk where she knew the odor was coming from and saw what her daughter was hiding? I think the opportunity for disposal would have been in the wee hours leading into the morning of the 17th when LE took KC for her statement. It could also explain how DC knew where to look in the woods. I know the forensic botanists and entomologists have stated that it is most likely the remains were there since approximately June 20thish, but IMO there still is the possibility that they were dumped a month later, coffin flies and all, (since the coffin flies would have been sealed inside the plastic garbage bags) and then further contained once one of the A's placed their find in the handy dandy laundry bag. With all of the rain and weather I still think it very possible that the amount of growth of plants etc thru the bones would still present as they did. The remains were not found until Dec 11. (that is 5 months as opposed to 6). I think it was LA. Thoughts anyone? MOO

 

[suepitzl]

Also, at the tow yard, no one lifted the spare tire cover and looked under it, just a look in the trunk and the disposal of the white trash bag.

 

[chefmom]

I have also wondered about this scenario. For the life of me, I cannot understand why GA, an ex homocide detective, would smell THAT smell and then drive the car home instead of calling LE. Let's see! You haven't seen or talked to your granddaughter for a month. Her mother, your daughter, a known habitual liar and thief, has been MIA from the home for the same month, avoiding contact with anyone in the family. You find out her car has been impounded. Upon finding the car at the towyard, you discover it smells of death, so you give a quick look in the trunk whilst standing with the towyard guy, muttering prayers that it not be your daughter or granddaughter, and then you......DRIVE IT HOME? Uh uh! I have found this very odd since the beginning. However, since the beginning, I have found that the A family is a secretive bunch. So, who knows.

 

[LambChop]

There would have been far more decomp. evidence in the trunk were that the case. A month in the trunk of the car in the Florida heat June/July would have meant much of the body would have been reduced to fluids. Plus the body has already been identified as only being in the trunk for 2.6 days. Listen to the 911 call from Cindy. It is REAL. She was truly upset and why would she have called 911. It would have been swept under the rug. Explaining to the relatives would be a story how KC volunteered to give Caylee to the father's family for adoption because they had lost their son and wanted to raise her. With all the lies coming from the A's this would have been easy for them to explain. Plus Cindy would NEVER have put the baby's body near her home if they decided to go with the kidnapping story. She would have put it in Jesse's dumpster. JMO

 

[Phumi]

I agree that there is something very hinky about CA's and GA's reaction to the smell in the car. I think they did a lot of cleaning before LE impounded it. I think George or Cindy would have buried Caylee. Only Casey would be heartless enough to put her in garbage bags and basically toss her on the side of the road like trash left over from a visit to a fast food place.

 

[Just Jayla]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed.........I think it is possible that one of the A's disposed of the remains in the woods.....Hear me out.....LE did not search nor take possession of the pontiac until the evening of the 17th of July. CA has a discussion with Yuri about how long it took them to pick-up the car-She told the media it was 2-3 days, when it was only one....why did CA lie about this? When Yuri pushed her, she admitted it was only there one day.When CA cleaned out the car (washed the pants etc) isn't it plausible that she also checked the trunk where she knew the odor was coming from and saw what her daughter was hiding? I have to think on this part, I dunno what SimonB will say... I think the opportunity for disposal would have been in the wee hours leading into the morning of the 17th when LE took KC for her statement. Just to be clear, you think Caylee's body was in the trunk but not in a bag? That she was bagged by CA? It could also explain how DC knew where to look in the woods. I know the forensic botanists and entomologists have stated that it is most likely the remains were there since approximately June 20thish, but IMO there still is the possibility that they were dumped a month later, coffin flies and all, (since the coffin flies would have been sealed inside the plastic garbage bags) and then further contained once one of the A's placed their find in the handy dandy laundry bag. With all of the rain and weather I still think it very possible that the amount of growth of plants etc thru the bones would still present as they did. The botanists timeline is very broad, IIRC the window they gave was within a few weeks of accuracy. The remains were not found until Dec 11. (that is 5 months as opposed to 6). I think it was LA. Thoughts anyone? MOO

Red additions by me, very interesting theory....

 

[Harmony 2]

There would have been far more decomp. evidence in the trunk were that the case. A month in the trunk of the car in the Florida heat June/July would have meant much of the body would have been reduced to fluids. Plus the body has already been identified as only being in the trunk for 2.6 days. Listen to the 911 call from Cindy. It is REAL. She was truly upset and why would she have called 911. It would have been swept under the rug. Explaining to the relatives would be a story how KC volunteered to give Caylee to the father's family for adoption because they had lost their son and wanted to raise her. With all the lies coming from the A's this would have been easy for them to explain. Plus Cindy would NEVER have put the baby's body near her home if they decided to go with the kidnapping story. She would have put it in Jesse's dumpster. JMO

According to the Body Farm results Caylee lay on the trunk carpet for 2.6 days. This was determined from scrapings of the VFA, butyric acid, gathered from the trunk liner. She may have been wrapped in her blue Winnie the Pooh blanket since blue fibers were found in the hairmass and no trunk carpet fibers were found on the clothes at the remains site or in her hair. Because the trunk was sealed closed, bugs attracted to early decomp could not get into the trunk thus explaining their absence. After 2.6 days she was most likely bagged which stopped any further decomp from seeping onto the trunk carpet. The bagging caused an anerobic condition and sped up the decomp process and adipocere formed. According to the entomology report she remained further decomposing in the trunk luring corpse fauna attracted to advanced decomp. The coffin flies can get into the smallest crevices. Dr. Haskell opines on page 8 of the entomology report that "any decomposing carrion" was disposed between June 20th and 27th.

As to being in the spare tire wheel base, it is my opinion the bag was on top of the liner versus under.

Note: This is my interpretation of several reports and consolidation of the information. I welcome any challenges to this theory and scenario.

 

[Just Jayla]

I agree that there is something very hinky about CA's and GA's reaction to the smell in the car. I think they did a lot of cleaning before LE impounded it. I think George or Cindy would have buried Caylee. Only Casey would be heartless enough to put her in garbage bags and basically toss her on the side of the road like trash left over from a visit to a fast food place.

Someone mentioned in another thread that if the trunk had been throroughly cleaned, there would not be so many (10-12, don't remember exactly) hairs left behind, why was there dirt still in the trunk, etc....

I did not answer on that thread, but you've made me think about it again-I was in the janitorial supply business for a while, and I know that there are vast differences in the results you can get using different chemicals and machinery. If you utilize a household carpet cleaner/vacuum, you will not get the same results you get with commercial machines. Hairs will tend to intertwine and cling with carpet fibers-the power of the machine, and whether the machine has brushes or not will be a determining factor as to how clean the surface will be left-
The cleaning chemicals, if used, might have been cheap...if surfactants are used, the surface will be a little more slippery/giving of debris. Professional detailers use commercial chemicals rather than household products-Household products contain more perfumes and dyes, and the active ingredient can be diminished to keep the product's cost to the retail consumer at a reasonable rate.

The dirt left behind might just be dirt left behind. If objects were removed from the trunk and then placed back into the trunk, they could have been contaminated with dirt. The nozzle of the cleaning machine can push dirt out to the corners and edges.
Just some thoughts on how there could still be evidence in the trunk even after it was cleaned.

 

[CentralFLMama]

At this point I dont think anything would surprise me about the A's. However I am inclined to think no for two reasons:
1- the genuine panic in Cindy's voice in the 3rd 911 call. It was her most genuine and raw moment in the entire story.
2- if they were trying to cover for Casey, there are a million places in FL to make a body disappear forever. It wouldnt be logical to put Caylee's body there.

 

[RR0004]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed.........I think it is possible that one of the A's disposed of the remains in the woods.....Hear me out.....LE did not search nor take possession of the pontiac until the evening of the 17th of July. When CA cleaned out the car (washed the pants etc) isn't it plausible that she also checked the trunk where she knew the odor was coming from and saw what her daughter was hiding? I think the opportunity for disposal would have been in the wee hours leading into the morning of the 17th when LE took KC for her statement. It could also explain how DC knew where to look in the woods. I know the forensic botanists and entomologists have stated that it is most likely the remains were there since approximately June 20thish, but IMO there still is the possibility that they were dumped a month later, coffin flies and all, (since the coffin flies would have been sealed inside the plastic garbage bags) and then further contained once one of the A's placed their find in the handy dandy laundry bag. With all of the rain and weather I still think it very possible that the amount of growth of plants etc thru the bones would still present as they did. The remains were not found until Dec 11. (that is 5 months as opposed to 6). I think it was LA. Thoughts anyone? MOO

Ok...I'm confused...I thought Casey went with LE on the 16th...and never really left their custody as she was arrested later that day.

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

No, I think Caylee was disposed of whatever day KC texted Amy about the fact that there 'was definitely a part of a dead animal plastered..' to her car.

She was done with getting rid of the 'animal' smell and texted Amy indicating her relief. KC is pretty transparent.

 

[sophie01]

Someone mentioned in another thread that if the trunk had been throroughly cleaned, there would not be so many (10-12, don't remember exactly) hairs left behind, why was there dirt still in the trunk, etc....

I did not answer on that thread, but you've made me think about it again-I was in the janitorial supply business for a while, and I know that there are vast differences in the results you can get using different chemicals and machinery. If you utilize a household carpet cleaner/vacuum, you will not get the same results you get with commercial machines. Hairs will tend to intertwine and cling with carpet fibers-the power of the machine, and whether the machine has brushes or not will be a determining factor as to how clean the surface will be left-
The cleaning chemicals, if used, might have been cheap...if surfactants are used, the surface will be a little more slippery/giving of debris. Professional detailers use commercial chemicals rather than household products-Household products contain more perfumes and dyes, and the active ingredient can be diminished to keep the product's cost to the retail consumer at a reasonable rate.

The dirt left behind might just be dirt left behind. If objects were removed from the trunk and then placed back into the trunk, they could have been contaminated with dirt. The nozzle of the cleaning machine can push dirt out to the corners and edges.
Just some thoughts on how there could still be evidence in the trunk even after it was cleaned.

Perhaps Casey used the KIWI brand sport shoe cleaner with the little scrub brush attached to try to clean up the worst of the stain and finish the job off with the paper towels. Both items were in bag of trash found in her trunk. The paper towels had that waxy substance on them and the scrubby brush is stained, but that could of course be from cleaning shoes.Both items are photographed and in police evidence.

 

[cecybeans]

Perhaps Casey used the KIWI brand sport shoe cleaner with the little scrub brush attached to try to clean up the worst of the stain and finish the job off with the paper towels. Both items were in bag of trash found in her trunk. The paper towels had that waxy substance on them and the scrubby brush is stained, but that could of course be from cleaning shoes.Both items are photographed and in police evidence.

I believe the waxy substance was "grave wax", or adipocere, wasn't it?

 

[sophie01]

I believe the waxy substance was "grave wax", or adipocere, wasn't it?

Yes, couldn't recall the name of it. I wonder if they tested the scrub brush to see if it might have been there too.

 

[christee]

For me one of the strongest pieces of evidence is from Botanist David Hall who determined Caylees' remains were in the exact place she was found for at least 4 months, and possibly as long as 6 mos.

 

[RR0004]

What Yuri said long ago still sticks in my mind...something alluding to what we didn't know. So nothing at this point would surprise me.

 

[klm403]

At this point I dont think anything would surprise me about the A's. However I am inclined to think no for two reasons:
1- the genuine panic in Cindy's voice in the 3rd 911 call. It was her most genuine and raw moment in the entire story.
2- if they were trying to cover for Casey, there are a million places in FL to make a body disappear forever. It wouldnt be logical to put Caylee's body there.

BBM

CA's frantic 911 is an excellent example of how "dramatic" CA is..!!

She knew about the smell in the car when she went with GA to pick up the car at the tow yard. She then "went back to work," where she was telling her coworkers about the smell. Her coworkers encouraged her to call the police, or go home. CA's reply, "she wanted to discuss it with KC first". Finally, her supervisor told her to go home mid afternoon.

She made that "fake frantic" 911 call that evening....8 to 9 hours after knowing, the trunk smelled like there was a dead body in it..!!

There was no genuine panic that many hours 'after the discovery'....if it were genuine, she would have made that call from the tow yard.

There was No Way...she was calling the police, until she talked to KC..!!

OSCAR Performance CA :croc:

 

[Spookydancer]

Your theory makes more sense than any thing in this whole case. It would certainly explain the strange defensiveness of the A's. I have always thought there was some kind of involvment of the A's. However, I was never able to connect the dots, till you brought up this theory!!

 

[Leila]

While I wouldn't rule out GA or Ca being involved in the disposal of Caylee's remains, I don't think the remains were still in the trunk of the Pontiac on July 15th, the day GA and CA retrieved it from the impound yard.

I think GA's explanation of the events of June 24th, when Casey came home, coming in through the garage not expecting anyone to be there, needs further investigation. That morning GA had made a police report about gas cans stolen from his shed in the side yard.

GA and Casey had a confrontation about the gas can theft. Casey told GA that she had talked to CA that morning and knew of the gas can theft. GA says that he told Casey he was going to get the chocks out of the trunk of her car so he could do an oil change or something on one of the other family cars. Casey went into a panic about GA getting into the trunk of the Pontiac and rushed past him to get to the trunk before he did. She opened it and flung the gas cans at him, saying, "here's your %&#@$ gas cans." She slammed the trunk shut and left immediately.

GA claims he didn't get near the trunk to see inside. But, knowing how much the Anthonys have lied and covered up for Casey, I've always wondered if there was a whole lot more to this story.

I think it's entirely possible that GA did see what was in the trunk of the Pontiac. I think GA knew that Caylee was dead and somehow was involved in the disposal of Caylee's remains. I think it entirely possible that GA didn't confide what happened and what he saw in Casey's car trunk to CA. GA may have thought he was protecting CA from the ugly truth.

When CA made the third 911 call on July 15th, the dispatcher asked to speak with Casey. You can hear CA telling Casey "they want to talk to you." In the brief pause while Casey is coming to the phone, you can hear CA say something to another person - presumed to be GA, who had just arrived home from work. From memory, without the actual quote in front of me, CA states that Caylee was kidnapped by "Zanny", telling that person what's happened since they last talked.

At some point that evening, into the wee hours of the morning, GA told one of the detectives that he didn't think Casey was telling all she knew. Now, if GA knew that Caylee was deceased, and hadn't told CA, then CA's call to 911 really messed up GA's plans to keep this whole thing quiet and within the family.

The one thing that keeps me from believing that GA actually disposed of Cayles's remains is this: GA was a former police officer and had worked homicide. With his background, I don't think GA would have dumped Caylee's remains close to the street and right around the corner from the Anthony home. He would have driven out of town and either buried Caylee or disposed of her remains in a body of water..........somewhere far from home.

GA's role may have been limited to telling Casey that she needed to dispose of the remains and clean up the trunk. He may have made suggestions to her about what to do, without actually doing it himself.

The fact that Caylee's remains were found, carelessly disposed of near the street and just around the corner from the Anthony home, tells us that the person who dumped the remains didn't think things through, and was in a hurry..........someone who only lives from moment to moment. This is Casey's MO.

CA didn't have access to the Pontiac until July 15th, at least as far as we know from what information has been made available up to this point. I don't think that if she had knowledge that Caylee was deceased, she would have ever made those calls to 911.

 

[CarrieSis]

I considered this for awhile. I still think it's *possible*... but not plausible, for one reason. Well, two.

1. Caylee was *discarded*. She wasn't lovingly covered, positioned, buried, put into a more protective covering such as a box etc. She was thrown away like (and in) a bag of unwanted trash.

2. I do not think George or Cindy could have kept from visiting her if they'd been involved in her disposal. The urge to visit her grave would have been too strong. I do believe they knew her location before Kronk found her, but well after August.