Remains in Trunk and the A's

[Leila]

Love all the input!! I didn't mean to imply that CA "bagged her", I believe that she was already bagged. The results from the Body Farm indicated that the "odor signature" was that of a decomposing body left uncontained (not sealed) for 2.6 days. I do think KC placed Caylee (bless her), in the trunk initially just wrapped in a blanket, then she "bagged her" and concealed her in the trunk. IMO if Caylees' remains were left in the trunk until after the car was picked up from the tow yard, decomposition would occur more rapidly given how hot it would have been in the trunk and thus advancing to the stage of being near skeletonized by July 16th. I do believe CA's 3rd 911 call was genuine, but perhaps she put 2 and 2 together later that night (not before she called 911). Any of the A's had the opportunity after the police left that night to do their own investigating........The A's have always covered for KC's "messes". Perhaps KC was being truthful when she said " I have no idea where my daughter is". I don't know, GA has always done Ca's bidding and as another poster said, perhaps CA knew nothing of it and GA was trying to shield CA from the awful truth. I can't believe LE did not seize the car immediately, IMO there was the means, motive and time for one of the A's to remove the remains.

I've always felt that the moment of truth for Cindy was the late afternoon of July 16th. It was reported by one of the local news media that Cindy and George and George's sister, were at the Anthony home and had the television on as they expected an Amber Alert. A friend or neighbor called them and told them to turn the channel to another station, that it was being reported that Casey had been arrested.

I think that Cindy was clinging to the "kidnapped by the nanny" story up until this point. When she learned that Casey had been arrested for lying to the police, she knew the kidnapping story was a lie and realized that Caylee was dead. As the details of Casey's lies were reported by the news media, Cindy learned there was no nanny, no job at Universal, and everything they had believed was true, was a lie.

Cindy could have accepted the truth at this point. But, instead, she opted to perpetuate Casey's lies and obstruct the investigation.

 

[Leila]

Caylee was never in a sealed container that we know of. She was in two plastic trash bags that are tied at the top, not sealed, fluid can easily seep out of plastic trash bags. Once decomp starts there would be fluids, a lot of fluids and the car would have smelled worst than it actually did within a week had the body still been in there. After three weeks in a trunk the employees from AMSCOT would have been calling the police the smell would have been so bad.

It's possible KC tried to clean the trunk the day she went to JG's apartment to take a shower. She told Tony she was working so a shower in the middle of the day points to her wanting to get something off her asap. Since she could not go home and could not go to Tony's, JG was the obvious choice. Have to check JG's depo to find which day she stopped at his apartment for the shower. JMO

I think the shower at JG's was on June 30 or July 1st.

 

[chizap]

In Tony L's deposition he stated that he had asked KC about the car when he was in NY and KC said her father had taken care of the car and brought it to the mechanics or dealership (he wasn't quite sure which one). We know that GA did not pick up the car it was towed. KC had no plans to go back and get that car and shemay have thought it had been stolen. When you think about it that would have been to her advantage now wouldn't it.

KC abandons her car with the "items" in it that were found supposedly.
Her "purse" or workbag as CA calls it, on the front seat-in front of a check cashing business, an ID (whose "name" was on it, we do not know), the car seat w/ Caylee's favorite doll, shoes or boots, a knife, a pair of pants.
And the misc contents in the trunk including trash from someone else's home (AL).
If it did not get towed, what was she going to do with it? IMO she was asking to get gas cans with friends just to go along with the story she was telling them,currently. If it had gotten stolen (like she probably wished it did) it would look to her parents like she AND Caylee had come into harms way-and she thought she could get to California and start a new life- perhaps with another ID.
Maybe in signing the stolen checks-it would look like whoever "stole her car" had done that also. I think she thought she could get away with it.

When she finally realized she really was going down for this crime and said something like "this will all make sense when you find Caylee", I believe it is because she finally concludes within herself that it was alot of family issues that "caused" her to do this. I believe they are going to use some type of "control abuse" strategy as to why she "snapped" and did such a thing. CA will know that-she(KC) got really really angry that she put the pressure on and threatened her with her own child. That she had asked for help but CA got help instead. This is the old " If I can't have her no one can" motive. This child as a pawn, was in a worse situation than an angry divorce.IMO

 

[AnotherGladysKravitz]

I think George did see the laundry bag and smelled the trunk on the 24 of Aug. He did call the police that day. Maybe he called the police because he knew what was in the trunk by the smell and chickened out by the time the police took the report about the gas cans. Is this plausible?

George told two(or more) stories about the 24th. One, he didn't get near the trunk at all, and one, that he did see inside the trunk and it was just "laundry".(did that mean laundry bag or random dirty clothes?) So yeah, I think he smelled/saw/denied/rationalized at that moment. Then there was the chase story in the same time frame.

Lots of little details, too many details, all surrounding one day. Stinks of Le Hink.

 

[magiemay]

seems I recall in either CA or Ga depo with SA they were ask if they had a freezer it was either in the shed or the garage I have always wondered why that question was ask. Just wondering if SA thinks Caylee was in that freezer??

 

[LambChop]

KC abandons her car with the "items" in it that were found supposedly.
If it did not get towed, what was she going to do with it? IMO she was asking to get gas cans with friends just to go along with the story she was telling them,currently. If it had gotten stolen (like she probably wished it did) it would look to her parents like she AND Caylee had come into harms way-and she thought she could get to California and start a new life- perhaps with another ID.

Snipped


BBM
Maybe she wanted the gas cans to place in the trunk and planned on throwing a match in it. Who knows what she was thinking. Or she may have figured the smell would just go away in a few days. Obviously she cleaned the trunk with the papertowel and then left it in the car. Not too smart on her part or she is just plain lazy. Either way, huge mistake, huge!!

 

[Linda7NJ]

I agree that there is something very hinky about CA's and GA's reaction to the smell in the car. I think they did a lot of cleaning before LE impounded it. I think George or Cindy would have buried Caylee. Only Casey would be heartless enough to put her in garbage bags and basically toss her on the side of the road like trash left over from a visit to a fast food place.

I don't believe Cindy did any such thing. The 911 call was real.

I think both George and Cindy deep down at that time knew Caylee was dead...and that's the moment they went into denial.

 

[belle3]

how does george know to bring gas to the tow yard? this is kinda ot but not. I always wondered about that. did george just assume the car needed gas. why didnt george call the cops when he smelled that car but called the cops when his gas cans got stolen? why did he follow casey that day? why did he go from suspecting it possible that casey did something to steadfastly defending her? i feel like he did somehow inadvertently help casey and didnt figure it out till all the evidence started pouring in and then had no choice but to try and cover his butt too. all imo im sorry if this went too ot.

 

[KenoshaKid]

how does george know to bring gas to the tow yard? this is kinda ot but not. I always wondered about that. did george just assume the car needed gas.

snipped by me.

I think because he knew that KC hadn't called to say the car broke down. She had run out of gas several times recently, plus had been stealing gas so he figured he'd save himself an extra trip and bring the gas along, in case he was correct in assuming she had run out of gas.

 

[Leila]

KC abandons her car with the "items" in it that were found supposedly.
Her "purse" or workbag as CA calls it, on the front seat-in front of a check cashing business, an ID (whose "name" was on it, we do not know), the car seat w/ Caylee's favorite doll, shoes or boots, a knife, a pair of pants.
And the misc contents in the trunk including trash from someone else's home (AL).
If it did not get towed, what was she going to do with it? IMO she was asking to get gas cans with friends just to go along with the story she was telling them,currently. If it had gotten stolen (like she probably wished it did) it would look to her parents like she AND Caylee had come into harms way-and she thought she could get to California and start a new life- perhaps with another ID.
Maybe in signing the stolen checks-it would look like whoever "stole her car" had done that also. I think she thought she could get away with it.

When she finally realized she really was going down for this crime and said something like "this will all make sense when you find Caylee", I believe it is because she finally concludes within herself that it was alot of family issues that "caused" her to do this. I believe they are going to use some type of "control abuse" strategy as to why she "snapped" and did such a thing. CA will know that-she(KC) got really really angry that she put the pressure on and threatened her with her own child. That she had asked for help but CA got help instead. This is the old " If I can't have her no one can" motive. This child as a pawn, was in a worse situation than an angry divorce.IMO

Sometime between July 15th and the first part of August, LE had divers go into a pond in the Anthony's neighborhood. They said it was their monthly drill, but they were looking for Caylee's remains.

Of course they didn't find Caylee's remains, but they did find several abandoned and/or stolen cars in that pond. There was film footage of the cars being removed.

Had Casey simply pushed that car into one of the numerous ponds in the area, it might have been years before the car was ever found. With Caylee and the car missing, Casey's story/lie about the nanny kidnapping Caylee would have been taken more seriously by LE. All Casey would have had to say is that the nanny borrowed her car to take Caylee to the beach and both Caylee and the car were gone.

 

[Tulessa]

I personally don't feel that George or Cindy had anything to do with moving Caylee to that area in the woods. I feel that Casey did that all on her own without her parents knowing anything about it. I do feel however that George and Cindy knew that something horrible had happened because of the smell in the trunk. I don't think that they knew at that time that it was because of Caylee though. I feel that they simply began cleaning up for Casey while thinking that she had gotten herself into trouble by someone else being deceased and in the trunk. I also feel that Cindy would never have called the police if it had in fact been someone else who had died. When Casey refused to tell Cindy where Caylee was or take her to her then Cindy called 911 the first two times to make Casey produce Caylee. When Cindy made that last 911 call is when she realized that Caylee was dead (IMO) and Casey was going to pay for it. However, Cindy and George had already cleaned the car and Casey was going to use that against them to make them stand by her and defend her. So I do believe that Cindy and George knew someone had died, just not Caylee at first.

MOO

Agreed, plus the fact of Cindy saying *IF* she did do this, she had to have had help........

 

[notthatsmart]

According to the Body Farm results Caylee lay on the trunk carpet for 2.6 days. This was determined from scrapings of the VFA, butyric acid, gathered from the trunk liner. She may have been wrapped in her blue Winnie the Pooh blanket since blue fibers were found in the hairmass and no trunk carpet fibers were found on the clothes at the remains site or in her hair. Because the trunk was sealed closed, bugs attracted to early decomp could not get into the trunk thus explaining their absence. After 2.6 days she was most likely bagged which stopped any further decomp from seeping onto the trunk carpet. The bagging caused an anerobic condition and sped up the decomp process and adipocere formed. According to the entomology report she remained further decomposing in the trunk luring corpse fauna attracted to advanced decomp. The coffin flies can get into the smallest crevices. Dr. Haskell opines on page 8 of the entomology report that "any decomposing carrion" was disposed between June 20th and 27th.

As to being in the spare tire wheel base, it is my opinion the bag was on top of the liner versus under.

Note: This is my interpretation of several reports and consolidation of the information. I welcome any challenges to this theory and scenario.

Bolded by me: Isn't that a hypothetical statement by the Body Farm? I mean in the end , he concluded that it was inconclusive? I am not being snarky at all. This is very important that Dr Vass is being hypothetical here. Otherwise it would not make any sense that he could not conclude that it was a human decompositional event. This is my opinion only.

 

[AZlawyer]

Bolded by me: Isn't that a hypothetical statement by the Body Farm? I mean in the end , he concluded that it was inconclusive? I am not being snarky at all. This is very important that Dr Vass is being hypothetical here. Otherwise it would not make any sense that he could not conclude that it was a human decompositional event. This is my opinion only.

It doesn't sound hypothetical to me. It sounds like 99.9% of expert reports I have ever read. They won't say something is certain unless it is a matter of mathematical calculation.

 

[notthatsmart]

It doesn't sound hypothetical to me. It sounds like 99.9% of expert reports I have ever read. They won't say something is certain unless it is a matter of mathematical calculation.

I understand. I think under cross examination they will say they are uncertain. Then I think the defense will put up their own expert. It is up for interpretation . And both experts may agree that they are uncertain. IMO

 

[AZlawyer]

I understand. I think under cross examination they will say they are uncertain. Then I think the defense will put up their own expert. It is up for interpretation . And both experts may agree that they are uncertain. IMO

I think I might have lost track of exactly which expert and what testimony we were talking about...which expert do you think will say he is uncertain, and about which conclusion?

 

[Harmony 2]

Bolded by me: Isn't that a hypothetical statement by the Body Farm? I mean in the end , he concluded that it was inconclusive? I am not being snarky at all. This is very important that Dr Vass is being hypothetical here. Otherwise it would not make any sense that he could not conclude that it was a human decompositional event. This is my opinion only.

Main Entry: in•con•clu•sive
Pronunciation: \ˌin-kən-ˈklü-siv, -ziv\
: leading to no conclusion or definite result
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inconclusive

NTS We are talking about apples and oranges. I think you are referring to the odor signature when you say inconclusive. I was referring to the VFA analysis where butyric acid, a volatile fatty acid in decomposition, was found on the trunk liner. He did not conclude in the end that the VFA analysis was inconclusive. He determined a PMI of 2.6 days (for the body to have been directly on the liner). I do not interpret it as a hypothetical. If you do, that is your perogative, I am willing to agree to disagree.

 

[notthatsmart]

Main Entry: in•con•clu•sive
Pronunciation: \ˌin-kən-ˈklü-siv, -ziv\
: leading to no conclusion or definite result
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inconclusive

NTS We are talking about apples and oranges. I think you are referring to the odor signature when you say inconclusive. I was referring to the VFA analysis where butyric acid, a volatile fatty acid in decomposition, was found on the trunk liner. He did not conclude in the end that the VFA analysis was inconclusive. He determined a PMI of 2.6 days (for the body to have been directly on the liner). I do not interpret it as a hypothetical. If you do, that is your perogative, I am willing to agree to disagree.

Yes I thought we were talking about the same thing. But was it butyric acid or the odor signature of butric acid? It is my understanding that these cheeses that were in the bag can produce butric acid?

I guess I am guilty of thinking that when anyone says the word "if" they are following up hypothetically. I do believe that the 2.6 days is based on a great big "if" . I will go back and read it again to be sure, but the last 8 times I read it, he did not conclude that it was human decomp.

 

[AZlawyer]

Yes I thought we were talking about the same thing. But was it butyric acid or the odor signature of butric acid? It is my understanding that these cheeses that were in the bag can produce butric acid?

I guess I am guilty of thinking that when anyone says the word "if" they are following up hypothetically. I do believe that the 2.6 days is based on a great big "if" . I will go back and read it again to be sure, but the last 8 times I read it, he did not conclude that it was human decomp.

My notes say the VFA analysis (finding butyric acid) was done directly on "carpet scrapings" from the "tire well" and was not part of the air/odor analysis.

 

[Harmony 2]

Yes I thought we were talking about the same thing. But was it butyric acid or the odor signature of butric acid? It is my understanding that these cheeses that were in the bag can produce butric acid?

I guess I am guilty of thinking that when anyone says the word "if" they are following up hypothetically. I do believe that the 2.6 days is based on a great big "if" . I will go back and read it again to be sure, but the last 8 times I read it, he did not conclude that it was human decomp.

There is no "IF" in the wording (look below at attachment). There was also NO cheese in the vehicle. The wrappings were empty. AZ is correct the butyric acid was acquired through scrapings of the liner. Volatile Fatty Acids are the best means of determining the post mortem interval. The odor signature is not important to me, in the grand scheme of things, it just bolsters the case for decomposition being present in the trunk.


You did not respond to my question earlier on another thread: No one saw Caylee after June 16th- Where do you think she was?

 

[LambChop]

In the first 400 page document dump there is a report written on 7/17/08 @ 16:42 regarding K9 "Gerus" giving a positive alert on the trunk of the Pontiac for human decomposition. Certainly the dog has no hidden agenda.