Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #6

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Opnieuw poging tot evacuatie in belegerde steden • 'Russen beschieten moskee Marioepol'

Kiev encirclement 'does not mean it will go very soon'
Satellite images show that the Russian army has moved closer to Kiev again. "We see that the predicted, steady advance of the Russian troops is now slowly taking shape," says Frans Osinga by special professor of war studies in the NOS Radio 1 Journaal . "But that doesn't mean that now will go very quickly."

Osinga expects the battle for Kiev to last a long time for various reasons. He explains, among other things, because of the logistics and communication problems within the Russian army. The defense expert also thinks that the Ukrainian army has prepared the city well.

British intelligence suggests that Russian units find it difficult to work together. According to Osinga, this is a logical consequence of the course of this war. "They are all separate units of about a thousand men. If part of it is eliminated and another team is added, it is difficult to work together. Imagine that Ajax and Feyenoord have to play together, each with a half-team."
 
sunshineray said:
I think the time for Ukraine to have started acquiring more defense for it's borders was right after Putin rolled into Crimea. I think the West not helping with that back then was a mistake. It could have been done indirectly and without invoking wanting to join NATO.

AJMO
Click to expand...

They did try ahead of time. Biden cut the request recommended by the National Security Council. We were to ship 100million in equipment in July 2021, when Russian troops lined the border. I'm sure Putin was aware as it made headlines.

White House freezes Ukraine military package that includes lethal weapons

The Biden White House has temporarily halted a military aid package to Ukraine that would include lethal weapons, a plan originally made in response to aggressive Russian troop movements along Ukraine’s border this spring.

The aid package would be worth up to $100 million, according to four people familiar with internal deliberations.
...
The latest proposal came about after Russia staged more than 100,000 troops, along with rocket battalions and heavy armor units, near Ukraine’s border this spring, according to estimates. In late April, Russia’s defense ministry announced that it would begin withdrawing some of the troops.

Past discussions over lethal military aid to Ukraine have been politically fraught, given concern over provoking Russia, issues with training the Ukrainian forces themselves and ongoing uneasiness over corruption in the Ukrainian government and military.

But despite Russia’s announcement, a top Ukrainian official said in May that about 100,000 Russian troops were still near its border and in Crimea, Al Jazeera reported. That same month, Biden officials told The New York Times that the number was closer to 80,000.


....


Since Russia’s 2014 invasion of Ukraine and annexation of Crimea, the United States has provided some $2.5 billion in military aid to Kyiv, including unarmed drones, radios and Javelin anti-tank missiles.
 
Fika said:
“
The Russian Foreign Ministry reiterates the warning that a Swedish accession to NATO will lead to "retaliatory measures". It writes the news agency TT with reference to the Russian news agency Interfax.

Prior to the invasion of Ukraine, Russia demanded that NATO not approve new membership applications, including from Sweden.

"It is clear that Finland's and Sweden's accession to NATO, which is primarily a military organization, would have serious military and political consequences that require a revision of the entire scale of relations with these countries and retaliatory measures," said Russian diplomat Sergei Belyaev. to Interfax.”

:rolleyes:

Kriget i Ukraina
Click to expand...

Belyaev Sergey Sergeyevich

You are kidding me! And he is called a diplomat.....
 
Help and advice for Ukrainian refugees in Ireland

As the number of Ukrainian refugees arriving in Ireland continues to rise, arrangements have been made to welcome those people who have completed the final leg of their gruelling journey.

A new processing facility at Dublin Airport for people seeking refuge has been described as the "first port of call" for Ukrainians arriving to Ireland and a translator is also available to help with their applications.

By Thursday, the number of Ukrainians that had arrived in Ireland stood at 3,468 and that the number is expected to grow in the coming days.

Here are some of the things they need to know:

(List at link)

(They will be able to request accommodation, have permission to work and access to free healthcare and education. While this is truly wonderful to see, I do wish people fleeing the war in Syria had received the same warm welcome here. Things were significantly more difficult for them.)
 
Bit of hope said:
This is older information *2o21* I wonder what the actual status is today?
Click to expand...

Yes, it is 2021. This demonstrates Congress approved funding, after requesting a study. The US believed Putin's words, he would drawn down is army. He did not.

My point being....Had the US taken a stand back in July 21, showing support, rather than believing a dictator, we might have avoided this conflict.

Basically, we backed down and relied on the word of a dictator.
White House freezes Ukraine military package that includes lethal weapons

All my opinion....
 
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gitana1 said:
Man. That was news to me. In that case, I sort of see no choice except to step in. And quickly.
Click to expand...


It's news to me, too, but I'm not sure I put a lot of faith in it.

Zelensky claims he gave up on the question "long ago" of whether Ukraine could join NATO, but that's not correct--he was begging NATO to accept his country as a member immediately after Russia invaded.

Nothing happens in a vacuum and experts warned us for decades about the potential of Russian aggression if NATO expanded. Yet, it expanded.

During the negotiations over the dissolution of the former USSR, Secretary of State, James Baker, repeatedly assured Gorbechev NATO would not expand to the east.

"Not once, but three times, Baker tried out the “not one inch eastward” formula with Gorbachev in the February 9, 1990, meeting. He agreed with Gorbachev’s statement in response to the assurances that “NATO expansion is unacceptable.” Baker assured Gorbachev that “neither the President nor I intend to extract any unilateral advantages from the processes that are taking place,” and that the Americans understood that “not only for the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction.” (See Document 6)"​

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

The Budapest Memorandum that says NATO will help ensure the sovereignty and security of Ukraine (in return for them giving up nukes), also states we will not become involved in foreign state governments, although we did that in 2014 when we (along with the EU) funded and helped orchestrate the ouster of Ukraine's elected president. That was the trigger for Crimea to secede and for Russia to annex that area.

Since then, a large percentage of citizens in the Donbas region, who are heavily pro-Russian, have wanted to do the same thing, but Ukraine won't allow it--and most of the world does not support it, either.

That's where the current war started--the Donetsk and Luhansk areas claimed independence early last month. Russia recognized them as independent but Ukraine and the western world did not.

Since 2014 when the whole thing was triggered (see above link), the Ukrainian military has been trying to put down the protests, civil disobedience, secession activities in the Donbas. In doing so-- the Ukrainian Military has killed an estimated 14,000 citizens in that region.

So yeah, there's been an ongoing problem for 8 years. It didn't happen overnight.

If Zelensky will truly allow the Donbas region to have its independence--AND agree not to pursue a NATO membership--I think the war will end. Those two things will (should) pacify Russia.

Only time will tell. But, I think the western world has done enough damage in that region. I think we need to back off at this point and let them work it out. They are neighbors. They have the most to lose (or gain).

I just hope and pray it's over soon.
 
gitana1 said:
I agree that Ukraine poses no threat to Russia. But it may pose a threat to Putin. Why did he aid the Syrian dictator in squelching the revolution there? Because democracies, especially strong ones, show his own people how things could be. Ukraine was doing well and getting better every day- economically, politically. Having that so close to him threatens his own status as ruler.

But putting that aside, I can understand how Russia in general would feel about having NATO military forces installed at yet another border with them. Just like we would feel if Russia or Russian allies amassed military installations in Canada and Mexico along our border.

So instead of allowing that to happen, he’s utterly destroying the nation and its people while the world watches.

I would love to hear how everyone feels about what, if anything, should be done. I just don’t know. I want to know what each person here thinks.
Click to expand...
@gitana1 I was not able to watch the video you posted yet. However, I agree with your thoughts above.
 
@Bit of hope
Here's a follow up/fact check
If my math is correct about 610million, not a billion.

60 million late fall
200 million December
350 million AFTER the invasion
610 million total
Fact check: Biden's claim on assistance to Ukraine

President Biden said in his address tonight: “We are giving more than $1 billion in direct assistance to Ukraine.”

Facts First: This is true, but it needs context. The US has given more than $1 billion in total security assistance to Ukraine over the past year. While Biden administration officials have continued to send aid to Ukraine since the beginning of the Russian invasion six days ago, they are not giving the total $1 billion in assistance right now.

The US has given more than $1 billion in total security assistance to Ukraine over the past year, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said in a statement on Feb. 26. The US is not currently giving Ukraine $1 billion in aid, as the President stated in his speech.

Blinken authorized the Defense Department to provide $60 million in immediate military assistance to Ukraine in the fall of 2021. In December, Blinken authorized an additional $200 million. After the invasion began, Blinken authorized a third aid package of $350 million for “immediate support to Ukraine’s defense,” Blinken said in the statement, bringing the total security assistance from the US to Ukraine “over the past year to more than $1 billion.”
 
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FNosbfZX0AUMBcK

Ukraine war: Protests after Russians 'abduct' Melitopol mayor - BBC News
 
Deutsche Bank trekt zich toch terug van Russische markt | NU - Het laatste nieuws het eerst op NU.nl

Last update: 5 hours ago
Deutsche Bank now wants to withdraw from the Russian market because of the war in Ukraine and the harsh Western sanctions against Russia. As a result, the financial group changes course. Earlier this week, the bank said it would not turn its back on Russia.


The turnaround follows reports that industry peers did choose to leave Russia. Major US banks Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase announced such a move on Thursday. At that time, Deutsche Bank did not want to do it yet.

"We are often asked why we are not completely withdrawing from Russia," chief executive Christian Sewing said in a memo to staff on Thursday. "The answer is that this goes against our values. We have customers who cannot leave Russia overnight."

In a new statement, Deutsche Bank reports that the group is now in the process of phasing out its ties with Russia. This will help non-Russian clients to divest their Russian interests. It is a financial withdrawal.

A spokesman said the bank's move does not apply to a dedicated information technology hub in Russia. However, the majority of the company's seventeen hundred employees work in Russia.
 
So precious.

Drones in Rotterdam als steunbetuiging aan Oekraïne | NU.nl

An art company released hundreds of light drones into the air in Rotterdam during the night from Thursday to Friday.

Wil je zien! Toffe droneshow voor wereldvrede met De Hef in Rotterdam als decor

The Rotterdam organizations Mothership, Anymotion Productions and Video Agency have joined forces and created a light artwork that screams for world peace. The performance with the title 'ASAP', which stands for 'as soon as possible', asks for attention for world peace and that as soon as possible.

The hopeful performance has resulted in a work of art of a hundred drones with a dove of peace in the leading role, conceived and developed by Jeroen Everaert of Mothership. The drone show has been secretly recorded in the middle of the night for the past few days, at the iconic De Hef bridge in Rotterdam.

(...)

The performance shows how a dove of peace defecates on a war tank, which then dissolves and from which a flower arises that symbolizes new life. With this powerful statement they show how the dove of peace, the international icon for peace, ultimately conquers all and creates new life

In the video you can hear music by, among others, the Rotterdam pianist Kevin van Genderen.
 
Last edited:
GRT said:
It's news to me, too, but I'm not sure I put a lot of faith in it.

Zelensky claims he gave up on the question "long ago" of whether Ukraine could join NATO, but that's not correct--he was begging NATO to accept his country as a member immediately after Russia invaded.

Nothing happens in a vacuum and experts warned us for decades about the potential of Russian aggression if NATO expanded. Yet, it expanded.

During the negotiations over the dissolution of the former USSR, Secretary of State, James Baker, repeatedly assured Gorbechev NATO would not expand to the east.

"Not once, but three times, Baker tried out the “not one inch eastward” formula with Gorbachev in the February 9, 1990, meeting. He agreed with Gorbachev’s statement in response to the assurances that “NATO expansion is unacceptable.” Baker assured Gorbachev that “neither the President nor I intend to extract any unilateral advantages from the processes that are taking place,” and that the Americans understood that “not only for the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction.” (See Document 6)"​

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

The Budapest Memorandum that says NATO will help ensure the sovereignty and security of Ukraine (in return for them giving up nukes), also states we will not become involved in foreign state governments, although we did that in 2014 when we (along with the EU) funded and helped orchestrate the ouster of Ukraine's elected president. That was the trigger for Crimea to secede and for Russia to annex that area.

Since then, a large percentage of citizens in the Donbas region, who are heavily pro-Russian, have wanted to do the same thing, but Ukraine won't allow it--and most of the world does not support it, either.

That's where the current war started--the Donetsk and Luhansk areas claimed independence early last month. Russia recognized them as independent but Ukraine and the western world did not.

Since 2014 when the whole thing was triggered (see above link), the Ukrainian military has been trying to put down the protests, civil disobedience, secession activities in the Donbas. In doing so-- the Ukrainian Military has killed an estimated 14,000 citizens in that region.

So yeah, there's been an ongoing problem for 8 years. It didn't happen overnight.

If Zelensky will truly allow the Donbas region to have its independence--AND agree not to pursue a NATO membership--I think the war will end. Those two things will (should) pacify Russia.

Only time will tell. But, I think the western world has done enough damage in that region. I think we need to back off at this point and let them work it out. They are neighbors. They have the most to lose (or gain).

I just hope and pray it's over soon.
Click to expand...
I remember the referendum being held for the EU association deal with Ukraine.
60% of the Dutch citizen voted NO.I did too,found the country very unstable,corrupt etc (all my opinion was based on reads)
But later on,I thought,what is the point of a referendum,when the gov pursued it anyway?
Ukraine referendum reconstruction: How the no vote becomes a yes

Reconstructie Oekraïne-referendum: Hoe de nee-stem een ja wordt

I didn’t give it much thoughts,att.
Now that I throughly read it on Wikipedia
Associatieovereenkomst tussen de Europese Unie en Oekraïne - Wikipedia
.what were we/our govs thinking??? (sigh)

Mo Thuairim said:
Help and advice for Ukrainian refugees in Ireland

I do wish people fleeing the war in Syria had received the same warm welcome here. Things were significantly more difficult for them.)
Click to expand...

^Snipped for focus^
And I do agree with you,here also - in NL.Not just Syria,but other refugees as well..
 
Elley Mae said:
U.S. Security Cooperation With Ukraine

U.S. Security Cooperation With Ukraine - United States Department of State

…

Yeah it’s a lot of money but I don’t see the words, “Military equipment” enough.

Jmo
Click to expand...

A lot of money over a long period of time. I was unaware. I was also unaware of all the treaties. I remembered treaties being announced over the years, media coverage of ceremonies, but never researched the long term standing/compliance.

All is so complex, long back stories, two and three sides to each story.
MOO...
 
cujenn81 said:
Zelensky has said in recent talks with Russia that Ukraine is willing to stop the pursuit of joining NATO with security guarantees from Russia and a third sovereign country. He also said he’s open to discussion about the breakaway regions. Putin apparently hasn’t been willing to accept this compromise.

In nod to Russia, Ukraine says no longer insisting on NATO membership

"I have cooled down regarding this question a long time ago after we understood that ... NATO is not prepared to accept Ukraine," Zelensky said in an interview aired Monday night on ABC News.

"The alliance is afraid of controversial things, and confrontation with Russia," the president added.


Referring to NATO membership, Zelensky said through an interpreter that he does not want to be president of a "country which is begging something on its knees."


He said these two regions "have not been recognized by anyone but Russia, these pseudo republics. But we can discuss and find the compromise on how these territories will live on."

"What is important to me is how the people in those territories are going to live who want to be part of Ukraine, who in Ukraine will say that they want to have them in," Zelensky said.

"So the question is more difficult than simply acknowledging them," the president said.

"This is another ultimatum and we are not prepared for ultimatums. What needs to be done is for President Putin to start talking, start the dialogue instead of living in the informational bubble without oxygen."
Click to expand...

I think I posted the video of this interview if I remember right. He actually stated as much as he doesn't want to that he and Putin need to talk. I wonder if Putin even knows this was said considering his "informational bubble". He laid out huge starting points for dialogue.

I personally don't see how they can get NATO membership even before this war. They have a long history of instability.
 
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