Russian passenger plane crashes in Sinai, Egypt Prime Minister says, 31 OCT 2015

[CARIIS]

Most of the flight was over deep ocean.
They were cutting it close if they wanted it to go off over water.
Even on time the plane would have blown up on the coastline.

They could have set it long enough to get out over the water and account for delays.
Possible they wanted it over land to kill even more. :twocents:

Interesting point! Your post made me really aware of how ISIS has conditioned us , and how different the world is today and not in a good way.

Back then terrorists typically did not want to be "discovered" for the most part- ie you did it , as opposseed to "we beleive terrosimism was the casue)
But it is an interesting thougt (killing more peope) and agin that is how ISIS has changed (chopping off heads etc)

Lockerbie:

The guy behind it was tried put in jail got some cancer wa rleased on compassion and died 3 yrs after released

They annomously told the world something bad was gonna happen to A Pan Am flight . Our govt took it serious (back then!) and warned the world but noone read the notice until she in peices in Locerbioe

One thing IMO a lot of the world focuses on in number of fatalties, wherein , at least back then,a huge goal of terrorism was inflict financial devastionn on the vistim - the nation- as oppossed to number of corpses ,.

Despite the ntotions of "dispise" the wants of terrosrism are multipfacited.

Abu Mus’ab al-NajadiOctober 2005
: But our war with America isfundamentally different, for the first time priority is defeating it economically. Forthat, anything that negatively affects itseconomy is considered for us a step inthe right direction on the path to victory.Military defeats do not greatly effect howwe measure total victory, but thesedefeats indirectly affect the economywhich can be demonstrated by thebreaching of the confidence of capitalistsand investors in this nation’s ability to safeguard their various trade anddealings.’
Abu Mus’ab al-NajadiOctober 2005.......

But nodays they party in the streets afterward .....but boy oh boy , Metro, certainly acheived its goals as it relates to $$, and we are only a couple weeks in.

Other intresting notions about terrorism:

ByOsanma in 1996:
“Those youths are different from your soldiers. Your problem will be howto convince your troops to fight, while our problem will be how torestrain our youths to wait for their turn in fighting and in operations.”

Pretty predicting huh? Does that not sound like ISIS today?

enemies view the U.S. as particularly vulnerable to the psychological impact and uncertainties generated by terror tactics ............

• The United States of America is extremely casualty averse. Any loss of life takes onsignificance out of proportion to the circumstances.• The U.S. Government policies and policy makers are overly influenced by publicopinion, which in turn is particularly susceptible to the adverse psychological impactof terrorism.• The U.S. economic performance is perception driven, and very vulnerable to theadverse psychological impact of terrorism.• The U.S. cannot sustain long term efforts or exhibit public sacrifice in pursuit ofdifficult national goals

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/army/guidterr/ch02.pdf

 

[CARIIS]

Yesterday I heard and posted (374-not implying that ,that is something so spectaclar ) ) about Wolf interview with high up egytion person (I cant type in my tative tongue I sure as heck am not even attemping Shel-jfakara -heimu- reicenbikerrsh!)

Todays Cnn headline :
Egypt: U.S. can join investigation of Russian plane crash

That is not at all what he said. At all. So not at all that Wolf reprased on three occasions, in a row. He babled about the engines , per law, alllow NTSB in, but then asked again will NTSB allowed acess to the eintire debris feild. No answer.

So they do the headline and then do this in the peice:

"Egypt has already accepted the application( that also is not how it works, the NTSB invites and off they go- that simple in investiagtions that have no agenda) of American investigators that are associated with the manufacturers of the engine to become part of the investigative team, and they are free to incorporate any advisers they deem as necessary for them to undertake the responsibility," Shoukry said.

unclear whether other U.S. investigators would join....no guys, it is not unclear, he refused on several occassions to answer that specific question.

The honest next sentenace ought to IMO, be something akin to :
When specfially asked, *advertiser censored* did not commit to allowing the FBI access to the entire debris feild.

more BS...... asked whether FBI agents could be involved, Shoukry said international investigation regulations allow Americans to tap advisers for their team. SO, what are you all doing with that fact? nothing to expediate their arrival that is for sure. (Come on - of course they will - but will it happen totally free where FBI can go anywhere? )

I ask you, ya gonna order a Whopper? I answer, I would be allowed to. Instead of yes/no - totally different answer no?

Do any of us beleive , in this day and age, as of what 12 days, that there is any reason, other than BS, that both agencies can get some homosapians out in the debris feild?

NTSB has "go teams" -At the core of NTSB investigations is the "Go Team." The purpose of the Safety Board Go Team is simple and effective: Begin the investigation of a major accident at the accident scene, as quickly as possible, assembling the broad spectrum of technical expertise that is needed to solve complex transportation safety problems.The team can number from three or four to more than a dozen specialists from the Board's headquarters staff in Washington, D.C., who are assigned on a rotational basis to respond as quickly as possible to the scene of the accident. Go Teams travel by commercial airlineror government aircraft.

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/process/pages/default.aspx

A small private jet crashed yesterday afternoon.. Yesterday news:
Two Federal Aviation Administration investigators were on the scene Tuesday afternoon and the National Transportation Safety Board was expected to be there by evening. It happened around 3 there time.

http://www.ohio.com/news/break-news/nine-killed-aboard-charter-plane-that-crashed-tuesday-into-ellet-apartment-building-in-akron-1.639413

1967, NTSB has investigated nearly 140,000 aviation accidents, and issued over 5000aviation-related safety recommendations.

The whole game is waiting for the news cycle to move on for all players in this ...................world leaders have learned how to play the news cycle, IMO and it is maddening on this end .

 

[CARIIS]

The NTSB’s 24/7 Response Operations Center holds vigil over a score of television monitors and computerscreens. Often, the news media provides NTSB with the first notification of a major transportation crash. At othertimes, notification comes through FAA or from state or local officials
.
Once notified, the Response Operations Center notifies the duty officer for that particular transportationmode (e.g., aviation, highway, marine, rail). To determine the appropriate level of response, NTSB managementmakes a rapid assessment of the number of casualties and the anticipated complexity of the ......

Major investigation Go Teams are usually accompaniedby an NTSB board member who will serve as the spokesperson for the on-scene phase of the investigation.

The 5 board members (appointed by the President -5 year term of office).Those five hold public hearings and take testimony, which become the final report .

investigators are given more legal power than many governmental agencies. ............right to interrogate witnesses on demand, inspect files, enter facilities and aircraft, examine the processes and computer data of any party involved in an air crash. ............. Congressionally-authorized powers.

can obtain subpoenas and court orders for special searches and seizures of any party who may have relevant evidence any witness who is to be "interrogated" ....has the right to be represented by counsel. ..... during all aspects of any interrogation in any environment........power bestowed on the NTSB by Congress is the right to take exclusive custody of the wreckage, cargo and records of the accident aircraft.

Not my font no idea-NTSB may exclude interested persons, such as the pilot, the owner or the families of the victims, from any participation or observation of the wreckage testing and analysis.

NTSB traditionally relies on manufacturers and air carriers to cooperate and provide them with all relevant information pertinent to the product or operation being investigated.

NTSB regulations specifically exclude lawyers for the victims and representatives of insurance companies from participating in the NTSB Investigation

The NTSB Determines "Probable" Cause, Not Liability

Each group chairman prepares a report and submits it to the Investigator In Charge. The Investigator In Charge in turn, prepares a draft NTSB Report and submits it to the Board for review....hen meet and deliberate to determine probable cause.

One of the most commendable policies of the NTSB is its practice of placing all of its final investigative materials in the public docket for anyone to study.

What Happens to the NTSB Report in Court? NTSB probable cause determinations are not admissible in evidence

NTSB Regulations allow lawyers to take the depositions of the NTSB Investigators, but the investigators are not permitted to reveal their analysis or express opinions

http://www.avweb.com/news/avlaw/181884-1.html

 

[gregjrichards]

Read in the papers here in Scotland about security in Sharm in hotels etc using fake bomb detectors which are nothing more than ariels with handles. Between that and taking bribes to skip airport security it would foolish to go there on holiday it's not worth the risk no matter how cheap. The security needs a major overhaul.

 

[Momoffourboys]

Urgent: NTSB METROJET CRASH INVESTIGATION

The U.S. National Transportation Safety Board has received word that Egypt accepted its offer to assist in the Metrojet crash investigation, a U.S. source with knowledge of the investigation said. The NTSB is waiting for more specific information on when and where the plane's engines will be brought to be examined before it dispatches a team, the source said. In an interview with CNN's "The Situation Room" Tuesday, Egyptian Foreign Minister Sameh Shoukry said his country had approved an application for American investigators to participate. "Egypt has already accepted the application of American investigators that are associated with the manufacturers of the engine to become part of the investigative team, and they are free to incorporate any advisers they deem as necessary for them to undertake the responsibility," Shoukry said. The plane's engines were built by American manufacturer Pratt & Whitney.

http://m.wptz.com/national/urgent-ntsb-metrojet-crash-investigation/36373310

 

[Hatfield]

I still cannot believe that bomb residue testing has not confirmed yet. Im beginning to wonder about tail strike structure falling apart again.

How come they cannot do a simple bomb residue test and confirm they have found chemicals consistent with bombs?

Isnt that a simple test? Maybe it is much more complex than I thought or maybe the tests have not showed a bomb yet.

I just want them to conclusively tell us what happened one way or the other.

 

[CARIIS]

"Invitation" (never heard of that in my life- its like a local police dept "inviting" the FBI -to help them solve a murder!!!!!!!!!!!

The egypt guy has no intnetion of letting anyone do anything meaningful here. He sent the "invitation" to the wrong person .The aircraft is powered by engines built by Internationial Aero Engines.. Pratt ahd Whitney provided two parts !

Think Burger King, they make the Whopper, Pratt and Whitney provides the pickle and cheese! If someone got food poisening would you only look at a pickle and a slice of cheese?

There a reasons why they are not letting the whole Whopper be investiagted!

The dude does not even know who he has accepted an invitation from! !!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAE_V2500 .

I found it- interview (chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee )

-----------------its like doing an autopsy and only looking at an appendeix- total geopolitical BS! 11/10/ 2015

BLITZER: I spoke with Sameh Shoukry, the foreign minister of Egypt, just a few minutes ago........he said that any U.S. involvement in this investigation would be strictly limited to the engines of that plane..............

[18:10:11]

Is that OK with you?

BURR: Well, listen, I would love to see the United States play a much bigger role in the investigation, especially the forensics, because we have got the best team at doing it, but, right now, we're going to be relying on the Russians and the Egyptians. ......

And we have extended to them any, any help that the U.S. can provide in law enforcement and in investigatory tools........

But, certainly, we had a catastrophic explosion at altitude. And you would understand that, if ISIL within hours of an explosion like that takes credit, that you have got to seriously look at what involvement they may or may not have had.

BLITZER: So, the U.S. assessment right now and the U.K. assessment, I know the Israeli assessment, they have studied it, is that this was almost certainly a bomb that someone planted on that plane?

BURR: Well, certainly, we had a catastrophic explosion, and one would believe, since you have got people that took credit, therefore, it must be an explosion.

..... until we get the forensics from that aircraft, from individuals who were on the plane, from luggage, (which is in one piece -defies logic- like a car in a wreck with no dents!) and it shows an explosive residue, then we can't with any certainty say this was the cause...................(egypt is in such a jam- there is no evidence of a bomb on the exterior of the plane)

BLITZER: So, you seem to be frustrated. ( I sure as heck am!).......Egyptians are not letting the U.S. get direct access to the site of that crash.

BURR: . we have not been able to do that.........., even with the offer of FBI involvement.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1511/10/sitroom.02.html

 

[CARIIS]

I still cannot believe that bomb residue testing has not confirmed yet. Im beginning to wonder about tail strike structure falling apart again.

How come they cannot do a simple bomb residue test and confirm they have found chemicals consistent with bombs?

Isnt that a simple test? Maybe it is much more complex than I thought or maybe the tests have not showed a bomb yet.

I just want them to conclusively tell us what happened one way or the other.

Ugh Hat

ME too. Being lied to just triggers me! The reason why nothing is confimirmed IMO is they have not found anything. They have to wait until the media goes away.

And yes, I think we all know that premilinary testing can say ugh oh there is residue , we have to do much more testing.

The victim was stabbed, but we cant find any stab wounds!! It would make sense if a stab wound was found , but the exact type of knife will require extensive study!

I think what is so upsetting is they think everyone is a fool - would love to be in a break room at NTSB!

IMO besides the fact that the exterior of the plane is so perfet with tailstrike angle - the tail tells tons, it shows clean break,with no outward holes, where the crack in the other picture was.

The media has become stupid, not asking real questions. In any accident , no matter the cause,when an aircraft falls apart (from whatever) in the air , wreckage is found in a wide area- physics. And the media is giving the public, that, THAT, (wide debris field) = explosion by bomb. Any plane in a sudden decompression goes everywhere, its like a coke can - shake vigerously and open!

We will never know , unless a Western source, when they lie and say explosive resudue found, leaks that is not the case ............MOO

TWA was explosove decompression at half the altitude, and had big debris feild. An infant drops a glass! Debris feild. Drop a glass from the fourth floor - different debris feild !!

 

[CARIIS]

O/T Any of you seen video of Akron crash yesterday - sounds like someone was packing a heck of a lot of heat! It sounds like bullets blowing up after impact !
Or maybe electrcal wires>

poor thing the plane crashed outside this girls house

[video=youtube;lUkWia97icI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUkWia97icI[/video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta9qA-B6an4

Vice chair of NTSB gives a nice overview of NTSB. And she talks like "NTSB!" . Notice how specfic she is - that is how they write also !

http://wkbn.com/2015/11/11/ntsb-looking-at-weather-pilot-recordings-in-akron-plane-crash/

Yea, she repeats the question! Never understood why anybody who does briefings does not do that.

Also note how instantly they were on scene!!!! Go team hopped on a FAA plane.
Dear Mr. Egypt,

Quit fibbing!

 

[Hatfield]

The way the bulkhead was cleanly broken off from the tail does seem to indicate simple structural failure instead of a bomb.

I looked at many pictures and very few had outward bending of metal. Some did but that can happen as metal peels back as it falls apart in wind. There was not lots of metal peeled outwards away from plane.

So I am leaning towards structure failure unless bomb residue tests confirm and I don't think Egypt is being honest about things. Their tourist industry is suffereing and they do not want it to be a bomb. I think they may just stall and keep saying inconclusive that they have not been able to figure it out.

What they don't realize is for their tourist industry it actually maybe better if it was a bomb because if I was flying over there, I would be more afraid of their old aging airplanes if it turns out to be structure failure.

With a bomb then Egypt can say they have increased security where it wont happen again.
With structure failure, people would be concerned the entire fleet is bad because old planes.

So Egypt needs to just be honest and tell the world what happened and then improve to get tourist industry back.

The longer it takes then the less confidence the tourist industry is going to have in them.
I cannot believe how long it is taking.
The one thing they should have been able to determine by now is whether bomb residue test showed anything or not. That should be simple and should have been done by now.

I don't understand the delay in not giving media preliminary results at this point. They are hurting themselves the longer this drags on.

 

[Hatfield]

Another interesting thing to me about planes is the way the bulkhead seems to not be very securely fascened to the rest of the plane. It was such an amazing picture where the flat side of bulkhead was cleanly broken away from plane.

I think there needs to be more steel support beams attaching builkhead to plane. It almost looked like just bolts around the edges holds the tail on. Shouldn't there be steel beams going through the bulkhead and attach it with beams or something.

Its amazing we don't have more tails falling off with such little attachment.

 

[CARIIS]

bomb

no bomb

bomb

no bomb

bomb

no bomb

compare contrast !

Just trust your eyes!! That. Is. It.



Lets get down - do I know a lot about this - yes - am I pretending to be pro - no.As a result of my fascination with this (NTSB) for the last 4 decades of my existance - am I having an issue with this BS - totally .

I am visual , I write visually , I process info visually , I do not do good with getting a new vacuum and trying to assemle it. I go to you tube and I am there

My processing brain side is visual. There are lots of folks that process info the other way. l am is visual and desciptive - that is how I process things around me .

But there is something, with my knowledge base , so unreal (same thing with MH 370) that is actually quite insulting. Not like I am a pro .... but pls you (govt) really can not beleive that there are not lay people that know you all are full of sh$t!

yes, it angers me , but what my deal really is , at its core is they get away with it ............hey I dont have kids ...............all this is gonna totally impact your grandkids ............ I dont know what an answer is here - but at the end of the day ...............it is all about media being able to monior policy makers -- and that is so not going on ---THat is the reeal issue here my firnds ....

 

[CARIIS]

forget the intro stuff were into the inteview !


so you are saying that you welcome united states expertise ?
we realize that according internaional law the US in this situation has a right to be there

why has the US not be invited at the onset

i am going rogue cause we had to see how we are gonna spin this - the ramifiactions are unreal

back to the lies

we welcome assistance ,, so your saying that the NTSB and our FBI will be given complete acess

I am saing according t stueste 456487463 that they have a right to here

so you are saying that our NTSB and FBI be given full acess to the sight

I am saying according to statue 63131631 , that the aircraft engines were american made , so yes

that is so not how it works for people who are trying to prevent a repeat ........its just not how it works guys

so you are saying the US NTSB and FBi will have full acess .

Yes according to statuue 456487463 that they have a right to here

behind the scenes yeh just go for the engines , if you get nailed later you said engines , while not oveertly saying you will not allow any american expert near the WHOLE thing ( and dont you all see,there are so many experts here, it was not a bomb ...they all know that - BUT money wise is the best way to play this with us idiots the public that is what is going on guys ..and they are running around the court waiting for the media to move on to the next mass shooting .............sorry that is just my opinon....

however, for all of you that have kids grandkids, pathetic, cause the media is suppossed to be the watcyhdog of those running the whole mess.................the imlications are huge...............just mo

 

[CARIIS]

Is this not a funny lead or what, I am sure he/she did not think about it while writing!
AKRON, Ohio – A man who lived at the Ohio apartment building destroyed in a fiery plane crash Tuesday says an errand to buy HotPockets saved his life............

oh my ..........
http://q13fox.com/2015/11/12/craving-for-hot-pockets-saved-mans-life-when-plane-crashed-into-apartment/




cnn 20 planes hit by lazers last night - I just cant imagine how that can "fun" seems boring........lets see if we can crash a plane tongiht just dont know any lomger.............

Christine Negroni--wrote book on TWA 800 (it was ok)

Either way, the wreckage and black box data will tell the tale. Which leads me to the thoughts of an experienced airline mechanic who upon studying the video of the Metrojet debris as shown on television told me this,

“I just find it peculiar how the tail broke off with straight lines rather than jagged tears.” Noting that the Metrojet plane experienced a tail strike several years ago and was repaired,......

good point:


To be clear, what the politicians and unnamed intelligence sources are providing is not information about the accident investigation, it is what they are learning from their security investigation.

http://christinenegroni.blogspot.com/2015/11/prudence-and-probable-cause-not-same.html#more

 

[CARIIS]

o/t reminded of Boston:
The health ministry said 43 people had died and 239 had been wounded in the twin blasts on Thursday,


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/12/beirut-bombings-kill-at-least-20-lebanon

[h=1]deadliest attack in Beirut since the civil war[/h]
this was hits me as odd there are so many people standding around - my inclination would be to leave!


two suicide bomb blasts claimed by Islamic State in a crowded residential district in Beirut's southern suburbs, a stronghold of the Shi'ite Muslim group Hezbollah.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/13/us-syria-crisis-hezbollah-blast-idUSKCN0T121P20151113

 

[CARIIS]

Next presser Akron crash /NTSB. Look at how much we know and have been told 36 hours in! I figure there is relvance here, if not ok mods let me know !@

http://wkbn.com/2015/11/12/ntsb-updates-akron-crash-investigation/

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

ISIS releases chilling video threatening to attack Russia 'very soon' and 'make their wives concubines' two weeks after claiming to have bombed one of its jets

Footage was posted online by terror group's notorious propaganda wing

Video includes chants of 'soon very soon, the blood will spill like an ocean'

Shows horrific images of prisoners being decapitated and shot in the head

ISIS has previously threatened revenge for Russian air strikes in Syria

For full news coverage on the Islamic State visit www.dailymail.co.uk/i

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-claiming-downed-one-jets.html#ixzz3rLh3af5Z

 

[CARIIS]

Hi blue- nice to see you again!

 

[bluesneakers]

Hi blue- nice to see you again!

Thanks! It's good to be back.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Hatfield]

ISIS releases chilling video threatening to attack Russia 'very soon' and 'make their wives concubines' two weeks after claiming to have bombed one of its jets

Footage was posted online by terror group's notorious propaganda wing

Video includes chants of 'soon very soon, the blood will spill like an ocean'

Shows horrific images of prisoners being decapitated and shot in the head

ISIS has previously threatened revenge for Russian air strikes in Syria

For full news coverage on the Islamic State visit www.dailymail.co.uk/i

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-claiming-downed-one-jets.html#ixzz3rLh3af5Z

I have come to realize that these terror groups are mostly full of crud when it comes to their propaganda. If I had a nickel for every time I heard them say "river of blood" or "blood will flood the streets".

The first time I heard that I was concerned and now I just brush them off and realize they are full or BS for the most part. Sure, we have to keep vigilante and they do strike whenever they can, but these threats like they put out are mainly just a bunch of hogwash.

There is no doubt they will try something again as they always do and are always looking for the next bombing or killings. But its nothing new because they are always a threat anymore which is why countries need to ban together and take them out once and for all.

They wont stop until someone stops them.