Russian passenger plane crashes in Sinai, Egypt Prime Minister says, 31 OCT 2015

[Hatfield]

Just saw CNN on TV reporting that 31 US planes have had tail strikes but I did not hear what she said about how far back that went.

Its pretty discerning to hear that though. They would have us believe that so long as the repairs are done properly that there is nothing to worry about but I beg to differ.

Just think about if you know anyone that ever had an automobile accident with significant damage and got it repaired. Was the car ever as good as new?
It may have looked cosmetically ok but there is something about repairs where they are not quite as good as the original before damage.

If that plane had significant repairs from a tail strike that involved welding or bolted on metal repairs then it could be that it took all these years before the repairs finally failed.

We will probably have to wait for more investigation into what caused this airplane to go down before anything is definite. There are too many possibilities at this point and they all seem possible.

Wouldnt it be something if it was a combination of mechanical trouble and it getting shotdown? Like maybe engine trouble of some sort caused the pilot to have to descend and when it got low enough then maybe someone on the ground decided to shoot at it.

 

[Isabelle]

The tail strike incident with this plane was in 2000. Read that in one of the earlier links.

 

[CARIIS]

Its pretty discerning to hear that though. They would have us believe that so long as the repairs are done properly that there is nothing to worry about but I beg to differ.

Just think about if you know anyone that ever had an automobile accident with significant damage and got it repaired. Was the car ever as good as new?
It may have looked cosmetically ok but there is something about repairs where they are not quite as good as the original before damage.

If that plane had significant repairs from a tail strike that involved welding or bolted on metal repairs then it could be that it took all these years before the repairs finally failed.

We will probably have to wait for more investigation into what caused this airplane to go down before anything is definite. There are too many possibilities at this point and they all seem possible.

Wouldnt it be something if it was a combination of mechanical trouble and it getting shotdown? Like maybe engine trouble of some sort caused the pilot to have to descend and when it got low enough then maybe someone on the ground decided to shoot at it.[/QUOTE]

Hi Hat!

Faulty tailstrike fatal accients are actually huge-In fact, it is responsible for biggest aviation crash in global aviatioin history (behind only a mideair). Improper Tailstrike repairs are directly resposnible for 730 fatalties - (there is one more but I cant remebber the flight number).

Japan Airlines Flight 123 (日本航空123便Nihonkōkū 123 Bin[SUP]?[/SUP]) was a scheduled domestic Japan Airlines passenger flight fromTokyo's Haneda Airport to Osaka International Airport, Japan. On Monday, August 12, 1985, a Boeing 747SR operating this route suffered explosive decompression 12 minutes into the flight and, 32 minutes later, crashed into two ridges of Mount Takamagahara in Ueno,Gunma Prefecture, 100 kilometres (62 miles) from Tokyo. The crash site was on Osutaka Ridge (御巣鷹の尾根 Osutaka-no-One[SUP]?[/SUP]), nearMount Osutaka. All 15 crew members and 505 of the 509 passengers on board died. The death toll was exacerbated by delays in the rescue operation.
The explosive decompression was caused by a faulty repair performed seven years earlier.

• The aircraft was involved in a tailstrike incident at Osaka International Airport seven years earlier as JAL Flight 115, which damaged the aircraft's rear pressure bulkhead.

It is the deadliest single-aircraft accident in history, the deadliest aviation accident in Japan,[SUP][1][/SUP] the second-deadliest Boeing 747 accident and the second-deadliest aviation accident behind the 1977 Tenerife airport disaster.[SUP][2][/SUP]

China Airlines Flight 611 (callsign Dynasty 611) was a regularly scheduled passenger flight from Chiang Kai-shek International Airport (now Taiwan Taoyuan International Airport) in Taiwan to Hong Kong International Airport in Hong Kong. On 25 May 2002, theBoeing 747-209B operating the route disintegrated in mid-air and crashed into theTaiwan Strait 20 minutes after takeoff, killing all 225 people on board. The in-flight break-up was caused by improper repairs to the aircraft 22 years earlier.
Consequently, after repeated cycles of depressurization and pressurization during flight, the weakened hull gradually started to crack and finally broke open in mid-flight on 25 May 2002, coincidentally 22 years to the day after the faulty repair was made upon the damaged tail.

Spent a lot of time yesterday with the pictures, and that seems to be adding up in this one. The tail def seperated in air, it was not engaged in a fire of any sort and is not chared and far away from the bigger cluster - means only one thing-its seperation occurred earlier in the accident sequence.

The old saying pictures are worth a thousand words !!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_123#Cause
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Airlines_Flight_611

 

[CARIIS]

Way too soon to be making claims of "external influence" IMO

Especially by an accountant - pis#sed me of this AM that the media is running with this garbage.

But I fear this is gonna be a ordeal-- playing back the tapes is identical to putting a reel to reel tape recorder, push play, have a seat, listen. Same for ight data data!push play it prints.

Granted the correlating the cockpit with the flight recorder is time intensive as to causation but if they wanted to they could be releasing a ton of info just as fact - "the captain told the copilot the sky is blue"

They have had them for days now.....

 

[CARIIS]

Does an "external cause" lessen the airline liability?

Totally, if an 18 wheeler hit you and you hit a pole or your tires were bald and you hit the same pole~!

 

[CARIIS]

Looking at the green line on the graph and if I'm reading it right, it looks like they did a hard push to climb upward and then the engine failed. The speed didn't seem to increase for that push like it did from an earlier push. Could the engine have choked down or could the engine have caught on fire and they were trying to climb to extinguish the flame?

Looking at the green line on the graph and if I'm reading it right, it looks like they did a hard push to climb upward and then the engine failed. T

you know what just hit me- your statement makes total sense--- the plane would definatly lurch nose up when its heavy tail and stablizer falls off.................


Humm breaking now per CNN
heat flash by american satelitte revealed
around the time it crashed but could that just be impact with the ground
or in air? More mysteries

Why, at this point ,is there a mystery about if the captain described issues or said nothing. This is a IMO yes/no qeustion!

If he did release ATC tape , if he did not clearly state ATC recordings have no transmissions from this flight regardinig course changes, return to an airport , divert etc etc

It happened or it did not happen- but can be very telling IMO.

What I cant figure out (yes the airline saying external makes sense=$) but what investment would any party in this have except a coverup which indicates a problem (he reported problems) or leaving the story as nothing said indicating an instant event.

Who is on which side as it rleates to Egypt, ??

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

Terrifying final moments of doomed Russian jet: Plane lurched up and down then passengers were sucked out in their seats after 'external impact' blew jet apart, flight data reveals

Doomed Russian holiday jet lurched up and down before plunging 31,000ft after being blown apart, bosses claim

Travellers still strapped in seats sucked from stricken Airbus A321 through hole at back of jet when the tail blew off

Plane crashed into Sinai peninsula killing all 224 passengers and crew just 23 minutes after leaving Sharm El Sheikh

PM said security officials are ‘looking very carefully’ at whether there is a safety risk to Britons travelling to Egypt

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-apart-flight-data-reveals.html#ixzz3qOYwCsiH

 

[CARIIS]

Terrifying final moments of doomed Russian jet: Plane lurched up and down then passengers were sucked out in their seats after 'external impact' blew jet apart, flight data reveals

Doomed Russian holiday jet lurched up and down before plunging 31,000ft after being blown apart, bosses claim

Travellers still strapped in seats sucked from stricken Airbus A321 through hole at back of jet when the tail blew off

Plane crashed into Sinai peninsula killing all 224 passengers and crew just 23 minutes after leaving Sharm El Sheikh

PM said security officials are ‘looking very carefully’ at whether there is a safety risk to Britons travelling to Egypt

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-apart-flight-data-reveals.html#ixzz3qOYwCsiH

through hole at back of jet when the tail blew off-tailstrike!

Ty Blondie this helps me I am visual

The plane twice abruptly climbed nearly 3,000 feet in three seconds before falling 3,000 feet moments later in the final minutes before disappearing from radar.

This is exactly what JAL123 did,TWA800also: after catastrophic fialure .... soared up nose high , nose gets to high , plane stalls (no lift) , goes nose down, gains speed, gives pilots "lift" to try and stabilize flight , they pull back, nose starts rising, stabilizer on back of plane is gone, stalls again, and poof....................................boom

The whole thing was good , from movie Final destination but at 18:00 is when everything starts - gives you an incredible notion of what these folks might have experiened . It is a violent plane crash - some may not want to see, its not gory tho.

A lot of the captions on the bottom are directly from NTSB final report:
TWA Flight 800 - Remastered Re-creation



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbny8XnAifY



If interested nicely done documentary on the tailstrike / and biggest accident in history JAL 123:

Japan Airlines Flight 123 - Out of Control


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87korQMhDzE

And finally this short clip , if tailstrike is it is very close, same manufatorer , bit bigger, but the stablizer cracks off:

American Airlines Flight 587


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8iieqAG-_A

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

Horror at 30,000ft and how Putin's playing a ruthless game that should terrify the West

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...ruthless-game-terrify-West.html#ixzz3qObxTG80

 

[Hatfield]

through hole at back of jet when the tail blew off-tailstrike!

Ty Blondie this helps me I am visual

The plane twice abruptly climbed nearly 3,000 feet in three seconds before falling 3,000 feet moments later in the final minutes before disappearing from radar.
This is exactly what JAL123 did,TWA800also: after catastrophic fialure .... soared up nose high , nose gets to high , plane stalls (no lift) , goes nose down, gains speed, gives pilots "lift" to try and stabilize flight , they pull back, nose starts rising, stabilizer on back of plane is gone, stalls again, and poof....................................boom

The whole thing was good , from movie Final destination but at 18:00 is when everything starts - gives you an incredible notion of what these folks might have experiened . It is a violent plane crash - some may not want to see, its not gory tho.

A lot of the captions on the bottom are directly from NTSB final report:
TWA Flight 800 - Remastered Re-creation



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbny8XnAifY



If interested nicely done documentary on the tailstrike / and biggest accident in history JAL 123:

Japan Airlines Flight 123 - Out of Control


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87korQMhDzE

And finally this short clip , if tailstrike is it is very close, same manufatorer , bit bigger, but the stablizer cracks off:

American Airlines Flight 587


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8iieqAG-_A

If the tail bulkhead section separated from the repair work finally failing then it makes sense that the pilots would try to correct and stabilize the flight. I am pretty darn sure if the tail of a plane is ripped off that the plane would be very difficult to fly and the natural reaction of the pilot would be to try to make sure the nose is pointed upwards.

The heat signature from radar could have been the explosion impact on the ground when the plane hit. The US should be able to match up the radar heat signature with the data recorders on the plane at the moment they stopped recording to see if the radar image is the explosion of impact.

I think investigators will be able to solve this one since the crash is over land and not water. It already seems like things are moving much faster than previous water disasters.

 

[CARIIS]

hAT

In terms of "governments" sides childish bbut for lack of a better way (!) what is your take on who would benefit or not - by not dealing with, concretly, if the pilot did say at 9000 e was having trouble. I get the fact that the airline will lie , but air traffic control tapes are govt agencies --- would egyptions have motive to deny or relaease info geopolitically is my question!

whew huh!

This is the pic that is driving me bonkers! the wings are inverted , geometry never my deal ha so is the wreckage other than the wings area the front half or the rear half?

I also think the world is putting to much hope in the recordings , unless they are actually discussing an event between one another - we can get clues but if it is sudden the recordings will just stop- we all already know something big n bad happened if it was just totally sudden black boxes are going to tell us nothing......................imo

TWA 800 stopped resulting in a 10 year investgation, Lockerbie poof -(that one may still be unsolved except they found a tiny resister board from the radio the bomb was in ! If she did not take off late ,outcome on that one would be totally different as well!

on a lot of the others much was learned by what they are doing and discusing. We learn what was going on, what they thought they were dealing with and what the aircraft was doing and sounding like ...............

..I can think of so many wherein as long as it was an event that took time to unfold the cockpit recorder , gave investigators "like' a huge flashlight on where to look, and what to look for on the wreckage and flight data recorder

Sadly I think this is going to be like turning off a switch, which leaves them with fatigue studies and/or explosive residue -- which would by this point allready be a much bigger part of the story this far out. The metal guys just "see it"

 

[Hatfield]

hAT

In terms of "governments" sides childish bbut for lack of a better way (!) what is your take on who would benefit or not - by not dealing with, concretly, if the pilot did say at 9000 e was having trouble. I get the fact that the airline will lie , but air traffic control tapes are govt agencies --- would egyptions have motive to deny or relaease info geopolitically is my question!
whew huh!

This is the pic that is driving me bonkers! the wings are inverted , geometry never my deal ha so is the wreckage other than the wings area the front half or the rear half?

I also think the world is putting to much hope in the recordings , unless they are actually discussing an event between one another - we can get clues but if it is sudden the recordings will just stop- we all already know something big n bad happened if it was just totally sudden black boxes are going to tell us nothing......................imo

I would hope that the investigators would be honest with what they find out since so many eyes are watching for the results.

Isnt there some sort of multinational agreement about plane disasters that is supposed to keep things on the up and up. Of course we saw how MH370 officials seemed to hide things at first about that plane disaster. They were not very forthcoming with information it seemed.

I would hope this investigation has no funny business about the results.

I do agree that the black boxes give people the impression that they will be the magic bullet to provide all the answers and it will depend on what went wrong as to how much help the boxes gives investigators. Its not like the box will have a tape recording saying the tail just ripped off the plane by itself.

So it may still be hard to tell even with the boxes retrieved They may just realize some huge mechanical issue went on. Hopefully the boxes can tell if hydraulic pressure was lost or not. Because if the tail ripped off then an immediate loss of hydraulic pressure should result. If the boxes have that info then they may be able to tell. But then again they would not know why the tail got ripped off until they can eliminate any missile or bomb.

The total lack of any explosive material should be able to prove that no bomb or missile was involved. They can do that testing and that should then limit the reason to structural failure.

Here are the signs they should be looking for if the tailstrike failure was the cause:

-No sign of explosives being used by chemical testing of parts
-Immediate loss of hydraulic pressure because lines would break
-Immediate loss of cabin pressure
-Distance from tail section to wing area on impact. They maybe able to recreate by free falling pieces down to test that.
-Analysis of where the tail broke away from rest of plane. Could it have been at exact spot of repair.

Things like that should allow investigators to narrow down if they think the tail repairs were the cause or not.

 

[CARIIS]

[video=youtube;2TdWUTHC49U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TdWUTHC49U[/video]

 

[lawstudent]

If you watch any of those series that recreates accidents and the investigations, a lot of this becomes clearer. It is very fascinating. An aircraft breaking apart because of a structural failure is definitely not unheard of and has caused many high profile accidents. There are lots of safeguards in place, and oddly watching those shows made me feel better about flying because so many things are watched so carefully and the investigations seem thorough. But it did become clear to me that the biggest risk is pilot error or maintenance error, often both in a tragic combination. Most crashes seem like a perfect storm of human mistakes, often by diligent, experienced people. People get into a set routine and miss anomalies. Of course some were intentional, but if this one was not I do not find it hard to believe. It should be easy to determine, but may take a while. Of course, if people don't believe in the integrity of the investigation, that's another matter.

 

[Hatfield]

OT sortof

There was a documentary I saw about the Dreamliner 787 and it sure made me not want to fly that particular plane. Link below is a small section of the documentary. The longer show is quite interesting. I actually liked that companies other planes but this plane scared me after I saw the show.

The other thing I noticed when flying recently was a certain other different airline seemed to have very old planes compared to what I was used to flying. I told myself to never fly a certain airline again after experiencing their planes. I wont mention the company since its just my personal experience and may not be what others experienced with it.

I guess the message of this post is we as consumers can do research and get data on age of fleet and certain repair issues. We can become more active role in who we choose to fly by doing homework.

[video=youtube;NxZLI070-Yk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxZLI070-Yk[/video]

 

[Hatfield]

If you watch any of those series that recreates accidents and the investigations, a lot of this becomes clearer. It is very fascinating. An aircraft breaking apart because of a structural failure is definitely not unheard of and has caused many high profile accidents. There are lots of safeguards in place, and oddly watching those shows made me feel better about flying because so many things are watched so carefully and the investigations seem thorough. But it did become clear to me that the biggest risk is pilot error or maintenance error, often both in a tragic combination. Most crashes seem like a perfect storm of human mistakes, often by diligent, experienced people. People get into a set routine and miss anomalies. Of course some were intentional, but if this one was not I do not find it hard to believe. It should be easy to determine, but may take a while. Of course, if people don't believe in the integrity of the investigation, that's another matter.

Absolutely Great post.

I totally agree. A few of us here on this thread have followed some of the other recent airline disasters here on WS and it has been fascinating to learn about aviation issues.

Sad events but also interesting because a lot of us have to fly sooner or later.
I try to learn from them to avoid certain seats and things like that.

Some of the footage of real life incidents is quite scary on Utube but also very fascinating.
There is 1 scary wreck of a small plane where the pilot made a terrible error by flying into a valley of high mountains. He was sightseeing with a couple other people and wasn't paying attention to the mountains getting larger around him. He got himself caught in a trap of mountains and could not make it out. It was very scary to watch but learned a good lesson about how even large commercial planes sometimes don't pay attention as much as they could to mountain tops getting too close.

 

[Isabelle]

What is unusual about some parts of the plane being right side up and others righ side down? I would think that if the plane broke apart mid air, the separate parts could twist and spiral and spin end over end as they approach the ground, landing in different orientations.

 

[CARIIS]

What is unusual about some parts of the plane being right side up and others righ side down? I would think that if the plane broke apart mid air, the separate parts could twist and spiral and spin end over end as they approach the ground, landing in different orientations.

That is actually a very good point! I have never seen one with perfectly intact wings like that. So its kinda like there was a lot of it "intact" but inverted, but inverted usually means falliing apart, and it is so perfect, its creepy!! It looks as if they were laid there (no I am not saying it did not happen) and it is the same with stablizer , it looks as if there was no ffoward motion at each site , like aleaf gently coming to rest

it has been reported that she was at like 67 knots before she started her spiral down , that is some amazing flying skills to get the machine without a stabilzer, falling frome 6 miles above the planet, to such an amazing imprint on the planet !!!

The burn patter for the wings is like someone with gloves (!) placed it down , like french toast(!) and seared the ground - I am not saying conpircay nonsense , but physics wise it sure is strange! IMO

 

[CARIIS]

.....one in five of the bodies had been horrendously burned in the minutes before they died ....:experts had not found any blast-related trauma during their preliminary examination .......haven't found any traces of explosive devices in the debris. ​
Most of the bodies retrieved at the crash site are intact

doesn't eliminate the possibility that an explosion ....A blast would not have to be very large a large number of orphans because many parents left their children behind to go on vacation

Egyptian officials have said they are finishing fieldwork first, (what a crock- not how it works if ya got the boxes -- stall tactic??


COCKPIT recordings from the Russian jet that crashed killing 224 people have revealed strange sounds in the moments before it disappeared from radar.


failed to issue a mayday call.
The audio apparently suggested the catastrophic situation had developed “suddenly and unexpectedly”

An infra-red satellite identified yesterday found a heat flash on the Russian plane which crashed over Egypt - also pointing to an explosion from inside the jet.

he US satellite does not show the heat flash moving as a missile would but is instead a single burst from inside the plane.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/616032/ISIS-Russian-jet-Egypt-Terror-Monitor-jihadis-claim-responsibility

crew contactedair traffic control four minutes before the aircraft went off ...

pilots had failed to issue a mayday call.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/04/africa/russian-plane-crash-egypt-sinai/index.html

 

[CARIIS]

Here is MH17 - notice the sharpnal and the holes are outward, kinda like someone with a machine gun was on the other side shooting at the metal