Russian plane vanishes from radar after take-off from Black Sea resort of Sochi

[Jax49]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38441903

A source close to the investigation told Interfax the plane might have been overloaded.

"Witness accounts and other objective data obtained during the investigation suggest the plane was unable to gain height and for some reason - possibly overloading or a technical fault - crashed into the sea," the unnamed source said.

Another anonymous source told the Tass news agency that for unknown reasons, the plane was trying to veer right seconds before the crash, flying at over 500 kph with its nose high up.

http://tass.com/world/922808

he Russian Defense Ministry’s Tupolev-154 plane that crashed into the Black Sea on December 25 was trying to make a right turn seconds before the disaster.

It was flying at a speed of 500 kilometers per hour with its nose high up, a source in the law enforcement has told TASS.

A source close to the investigation has told TASS the plane’s pitch angle was too high and it was being rocked from side to side.

 

[Jax49]

According to a source familiar with the search and rescue operation, several victims of the deadly military plane crash in the Black Sea were recovered wearing life jackets.
Read more: https://sputniknews.com/russia/201612261049005125-tu-154-victims-life-jackets/

"People in jackets, preparing for evacuation," the source said, clarifying that the life jackets were not worn on every of the 11 bodies found so far.

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/russia/201612261049005125-tu-154-victims-life-jackets/

 

[jjenny]

According to a source familiar with the search and rescue operation, several victims of the deadly military plane crash in the Black Sea were recovered wearing life jackets.
Read more: https://sputniknews.com/russia/201612261049005125-tu-154-victims-life-jackets/

That has been debunked. They had no time to put on life jackets.

 

[DexterMorgan]

They said the wing flap didn't lift properly and the pilot never errored by not turning back around to land or something.

Anyways. It will probably be different things mentioned by the end of the week.

 

[jjenny]

They said the wing flap didn't lift properly and the pilot never errored by not turning back around to land or something.

Anyways. It will probably be different things mentioned by the end of the week.

Sounds like they are thinking a technical problem that pilot couldn't manage. This was an old plane. Also from what has been posted on the thread, sounds like this model has a known issue with take off.

 

[Jax49]

[h=1]Black Box Suggests Mechanical, Pilot Error to Blame for Russian Military Plane Crash[/h]
http://abcnews.go.com/International...l-pilot-error-blame-russian/story?id=44420683

The preliminary analysis of a black box from a Russian military plane that crashed ChristmasDay suggests a combination of pilot error and mechanical error are to blame, according to Russian media.

The investigation into the crash has not yet revealed why the plane's wings experienced a problem with the flaps, the moveable panels mounted on the edge of the wings that increase lift, a source familiar with the investigation told news agency Interfax.

 

[Jax49]

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/n...der-From-Black-Sea-Plane-Crash-408375715.html

Online publication Life.ru published what it described as a script of cockpit conversation, with one pilot yelling about a problem with the plane's flaps and then shouting: "Commander, we are falling!"

It was impossible to verify the report, but Life.ru is known to have good connections with Russian security agencies.

Flaps are moveable panels mounted on the edge of the wings to increase lift.

The Interfax news agency reported that the flaps were not functioning in sync, causing the jet to lose speed and triggering an aerodynamic stall.

It also said that the preliminary analysis of the flight recorder pointed at pilot error.

 

[CARIIS]

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/n...der-From-Black-Sea-Plane-Crash-408375715.html

Awesome find Jax! TY

 

[DexterMorgan]

They are blaming the pilot for not noticing or for not turning back around to re-land as well.

 

[CARIIS]

[h=2]Number of bodies raised from sea in Russian military plane crash area near Sochi rises to 15, source says - Interfax
[/h]

 

[DexterMorgan]

[h=2]Number of bodies raised from sea in Russian military plane crash area near Sochi rises to 15, source says - Interfax
[/h]

Do you think they will recover all 92?

 

[CARIIS]

He was u turning

t should be noted that the FAA recommends that while in the traffic pattern you do not extend the flaps while banking, in the event of an asymmetrical extension it may push you further into the turn.

The problem is indicated by a pronounced roll toward the wing with the least flap deflection when wing flaps are extended/retracted. The roll encountered in a split flap situation is countered with opposite aileron. The yaw caused by the additional drag created by the extended flap will require substantial opposite rudder, resulting in a cross-control condition. Almost full aileron may be required to maintain a wings-level attitude, especially at the reduced airspeed necessary for approach and landing.


The pilot therefore should not attempt to landwith a crosswind from the side of the deployed flap, because the additional roll control required to counteract the crosswind may not be available.



...... pilot must be aware of the difference in stall speeds between one wing and the other in a split flap situation. The wing with the retracted flap will stall considerably earlier than the wing with the deployed flap.


...... asymmetrical stall will result in an uncontrollable roll in the direction of the stalled (clean) wing. If altitude permits, a spin will result.

........ approach to landing with a split flap condition should be flown on! at a higher than normal airspeed.


The pilot should not risk an asymmetric stall and subsequent loss of control by flaring excessively.



Rather, the airplane should be flown onto the runway so that the touchdown occurs at an airspeed consistent with a safe margin above flaps-up stall speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlVw-SNU8cM

http://www.flyingactivity.com/home/...al-flap-failure-ref-airplane-flying-handbook/

 

[DexterMorgan]

He was u turning

t should be noted that the FAA recommends that while in the traffic pattern you do not extend the flaps while banking, in the event of an asymmetrical extension it may push you further into the turn.

The problem is indicated by a pronounced roll toward the wing with the least flap deflection when wing flaps are extended/retracted. The roll encountered in a split flap situation is countered with opposite aileron. The yaw caused by the additional drag created by the extended flap will require substantial opposite rudder, resulting in a cross-control condition. Almost full aileron may be required to maintain a wings-level attitude, especially at the reduced airspeed necessary for approach and landing.


The pilot therefore should not attempt to landwith a crosswind from the side of the deployed flap, because the additional roll control required to counteract the crosswind may not be available.



...... pilot must be aware of the difference in stall speeds between one wing and the other in a split flap situation. The wing with the retracted flap will stall considerably earlier than the wing with the deployed flap.


...... asymmetrical stall will result in an uncontrollable roll in the direction of the stalled (clean) wing. If altitude permits, a spin will result.

........ approach to landing with a split flap condition should be flown on! at a higher than normal airspeed.


The pilot should not risk an asymmetric stall and subsequent loss of control by flaring excessively.



Rather, the airplane should be flown onto the runway so that the touchdown occurs at an airspeed consistent with a safe margin above flaps-up stall speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ24NtnaLl8

http://www.flyingactivity.com/home/...al-flap-failure-ref-airplane-flying-handbook/

I guess that sounds right. But hopefully other pilots can chime in. Because I can't believe this pilot was praised but they are now acting as if he was an amatuer.

 

[CARIIS]

I guess that sounds right. But hopefully other pilots can chime in. Because I can't believe this pilot was praised but they are now acting as if he was an amatuer.

I think what needs to be released is how much time he had in this type. If 2800 of his hours were flying fighter jets, and he had 200 om tu 154, that's different.

I felt that way too. Its like easy to blame him (he dead) if it stays mechanical then they have to retire em spend money to make it less likely to happen again on old plane

what ever happened was a low altitude giving them a really short amount of time befoe impact just ,

If they are decased pilot error is easy one to use!

just a babble!!

That was what was so unreal about Air France they had air (time) and still could not grasp what was going on

Someone in a cockpit yelling were going down does not IMO equate to pilot error - it equates to being human!

Unless they set flaps incorrectly but there usually alarms that let them know they are not configured fro takeoff

so it will be interesting to see how this plays out huh?

 

[DexterMorgan]

I think what needs to be released is how much time he had in this type. If 2800 of his hours were flying fighter jets, and he had 200 om tu 154, that's different.

I felt that way too. Its like easy to blame him (he dead) if it stays mechanical then they have to retire em spend money to make it less likely to happen again on old plane

what ever happened was a low altitude giving them a really short amount of time befoe impact just ,

If they are decased pilot error is easy one to use!

just a babble!!

That was what was so unreal about Air France they had air (time) and still could not grasp what was going on

Someone in a cockpit yelling were going down does not IMO equate to pilot error - it equates to being human!

Unless they set flaps incorrectly but there usually alarms that let them know they are not configured fro takeoff

so it will be interesting to see how this plays out huh?

I heard that freezing weather can cause the flaps to not work right. Plus this plane was made decades ago but refurbished in 2014.

So I agree. That its easier for them to blame the pilot than to go and get rid of every model of that plane.

Plus you are right that the pilot may have more experience on different planes than this one.

But for whatever reason. The flaps messed up after leaving Sochi and not before.

Now I am sure that someone didn't do the pretrip inspection. Or they never listened to previous pilots complaints of things that happens when piloting that specific plane. Jmo.

Thanks Cariis for the updates.

 

[DeDee]

Title: Caution insane wording!! Bit tired!

Well, you seem to be able to function pretty darn good when you're tired. This is a wonderful post. RSBM due to saving space. Maps are awesome tools. The pilot appears young looking vs experienced.

Why is it a suspicion that the Christmas Day ocean crash was a terrorist attack when departing the resort? I'm not sure what to make of the condition of the black box or the Uturn. Are those boxes made of steel? Are they generally cut/sawed/sliced open in that manner during an investigation?

It appears to be a relatively short flight so why refuel? I have flown from Honolulu, Oahu to Atlanta, GA on a non stop flight that is four times as long. Space for fuel could be small in the downed jet.

thats interesting

OK saw this earlier on RT but thought I may be driving you guys nuts

It was a text from someone aboard - to wife or girlfriend some mushy stuff then hesays , (sounds like she had earlier asked him about when he would land)

he says something akin to

..About 5-6 hours if via Sochi?.If they has been told the segment would be moscow [FONT=&amp]Mozdok, North [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Ossetia,for[/FONT][FONT=&amp] the refuel, on to Syria. [/FONT]

blew my mind. Why would he be mentioning Sochi with IF? If the diversion had been told to passenger, why would one not say having to refuel at Sochi so 5-6 hours.

**** snipped ****

 

[DeDee]

I think what needs to be released is how much time he had in this type. If 2800 of his hours were flying fighter jets, and he had 200 om tu 154, that's different.

I felt that way too. Its like easy to blame him (he dead) if it stays mechanical then they have to retire em spend money to make it less likely to happen again on old plane

what ever happened was a low altitude giving them a really short amount of time befoe impact just ,

If they are decased pilot error is easy one to use!

just a babble!!

That was what was so unreal about Air France they had air (time) and still could not grasp what was going on

Someone in a cockpit yelling were going down does not IMO equate to pilot error - it equates to being human!

Unless they set flaps incorrectly but there usually alarms that let them know they are not configured fro takeoff

so it will be interesting to see how this plays out huh?

how much time he had in this type

JMHO, this is valuable information. However, as Dexter mentioned about ice being a possible issue is that pilots who fly in that climate typically know when to call for a de-ice treatment to keep their plane de-iced.

Envision the slats that function primarily for lift and the flaps that help control airflow, either one or all malfunctioned. Pilot attempts to climb, nose up, to obtain speed. A plane travels faster when climbing. It requires more thrust to maintain a steady flat line plus the wings have to be in opposition to create and maintain proper airflow over the wings.

The malfunction prevented the jet from obtaining high altitude, thereby creating severe drag. With the drag pulling the jet back toward earth, it probably crashed within seconds and not nearly enough time for passengers to grab and fasten a life jacket. "This is your pilot speaking: Brace! Brace for impact!"

http://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/airplanes3.htm

 

[DexterMorgan]

JMHO, this is valuable information. However, as Dexter mentioned about ice being a possible issue is that pilots who fly in that climate typically know when to call for a de-ice treatment to keep their plane de-iced.

Envision the slats that function primarily for lift and the flaps that help control airflow, either one or all malfunctioned. Pilot attempts to climb, nose up, to obtain speed. A plane travels faster when climbing. It requires more thrust to maintain a steady flat line plus the wings have to be in opposition to create and maintain proper airflow over the wings.

The malfunction prevented the jet from obtaining high altitude, thereby creating severe drag. With the drag pulling the jet back toward earth, it probably crashed within seconds and not nearly enough time for passengers to grab and fasten a life jacket. "This is your pilot speaking: Brace! Brace for impact!"

http://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/airplanes3.htm

Dang Dedee. That sounds very plausible. Thanks for giving a good explanation of a possible.

 

[Jax49]

'The flaps, damn it,' Russian pilot's last words before Tu-154 plunged into Black Sea


http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/flaps-damn...-before-tu-154-plunged-into-black-sea-1598312

"The flaps, damn it" are reported to be last words of the Russian pilot who flew the flight Tu-154 before it plunged into the Black Sea.

Though the investigators are still probing the flight recorder and have not released any information on the finding, media reports have begun to leak.

The Russian defence ministry has said the search crews have found the second flight recorder and recovered it from the seabed on Wednesday, 28 December.

The main black box or the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) was collected from the crash site on Tuesday, 27 December.

 

[DexterMorgan]

'The flaps, damn it,' Russian pilot's last words before Tu-154 plunged into Black Sea


http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/flaps-damn...-before-tu-154-plunged-into-black-sea-1598312

Welp. There we go.

The flaps malfunctioned at the last moment before any chance of making things right.

Now I wonder how many pilots that previously flew that plane had flap problems as well.

But maybe the government only did band aid jobs to temporarily fix things. Jmo

Btw. If Dedee is right about the flaps may have malfunctioned while almost vertical at a fast pace.

Then maybe the pilot couldn't do anything until going horizontal.

But maybe it was too late by then.

So imo. The flap sensors were faulty for the sake of the pilot not knowing until it was too late to know that the flaps were bad. Jmo