Sect to forbid underage marriage...

[southcitymom]

They should both be tested. A child should be guarenteed a certain level of education if at all possible (barring extremely low IQ or other mental issues) in this society. Some parent who decides they never needed to learn to read so their child doesn't either should not be able to neglect their child to that degree. Reading to a 10th grade level, writing, reasonable math, history, science, etc. should never be an option. I knew about homeschooling - but never that it was so lax on what it requires from parents.

And every citizen should learn what the government requires from them too - taxes, laws, all that civics course stuff that tells you how the country you live in operates. Especially when the parents don't want their kids to know.

I adore you Details, but hope this point of view never ever catches on in our Courts! Parents have the right to teach their kids whatever the heck they want without government interference. They do anyway!

If we want everyone to pass a citizenship test when they're 18 to be official - fine. But government should be far far removed from curriculum (formal and informal) of private educational pursuits. If the gov sticks their nose in private schooling, we'll have much of the BS private schoolers seek to escape - evolution, history, compulsory moral stances. Yuck! Yuck, yuck, yuck!

 

[SewingDeb]

I am fine with dropping public school testing. I think it's a bunch of hooey (is that a word?):crazy:! I feel like there should always be options outside the structure of compulsory government schools that are completely free from the rules and regulations of those schools. Hence, private schools!:blowkiss:

The testing in the public schools has gotten ridiculous too. I'm just the opposite, just because someone can afford private school or has the time and inclination to home school should not exempt them from the rules and a real education should be assured whether it's testing or not.

 

[SewingDeb]

That is odd... in PA, my mother never made it past 8th grade. Arlen Specter has always been an advocate for the rights of our local Amish.. he is a big voice though. FLDS does not have a Specter on their side just yet, I suppose. I wonder why the FLDS would be in violation for not schooling past the 8th grade, yet with the Amish, it is a given that they quit school after 8th grade.

In TX, schooling is required to age 18 and that's where this particular FLDS compound is located. I don't know what the rules are in PA for the drop out age.

 

[SewingDeb]

Found the PA rules, PSUfan. Keep in mind that they may have been different in your mother's day.

In Pennsylvania children are required to attend school until the age of 17. One exception to this is if a student has reached age 16 and is employed during the time the public schools are in session. In that case, he/she is not required to attend school. The student must hold "an employment certificate" which is usually issued by the school district.


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/At_what_a..._school_with_parental_consent_in_Pennsylvania


Also, the spiritual marriages are not recognized by the state since they are not legally filed. I think if a parent gives permission, they should be held responsible if statuatory rape laws are violated in whatever state they live in, and the older man should be charged as well.

 

[southcitymom]

The testing in the public schools has gotten ridiculous too. I'm just the opposite, just because someone can afford private school or has the time and inclination to home school should not exempt them from the rules and a real education should be assured whether it's testing or not.

What rules? Who defines "a real education"? You favor the government doing so, I think. I don't!!

 

[SewingDeb]

What rules? Who defines "a real education"? You favor the government doing so, I think. I don't!!

I have no problem with the public schools my children have attended. 3 daughter have graduated high school with honors. One daughter graduates from college this year and I will have two daughters in college and one son in high school next year. I say they are receiving (have received) a real education. My middle daughter was placed as a sophomore in college her first year of attendance.

I guess since I have no problem with evolution being taught, I have no problem with the government's idea of a real education. Of course, there are things I would do differently if I was in charge...lol...but all in all, they have learned a lot.

We're really off topic here. The thread is about discontinuing underage marriage. : )

 

[southcitymom]

I have no problem with the public schools my children have attended. 3 daughter have graduated high school with honors. One daughter graduates from college this year and I will have two daughters in college and one son in high school next year. I say they are receiving (have received) a real education. My middle daughter was placed as a sophomore in college her first year of attendance.

I guess since I have no problem with evolution being taught, I have no problem with the government's idea of a real education. Of course, there are things I would do differently if I was in charge...lol...but all in all, they have learned a lot.

We're really off topic here. The thread is about discontinuing underage marriage. : )

I attended a private school for 12 years and a private college for 4. My kids are currently in public school and I am happy as a clam about that. But I don't think the government should fiddle into private schools or determine what a real education is. It should not be the only game in town or the alpha determinator!

Yes - we've gotten offtrack. I'll bet we agree about the underage marriage thing - I'm against it!!

 

[SewingDeb]

I attended a private school for 12 years and a private college for 4. My kids are currently in public school and I am happy as a clam about that. But I don't think the government should fiddle into private schools or determine what a real education is. It should not be the only game in town or the alpha determinator!

Yes - we've gotten offtrack. I'll bet we agree about the underage marriage thing - I'm against it!!

Yes, we definitely agree on that! LOL.

 

[Truly]

I expect there is a rather strong correlation between lack of a basic education and underage marriage. I recently attended an end-of-year homeschoolers association banquet to applaud some of my favorite kids who presented stunning speeches, excellent skills, and stirring musical abilities at the event. There was one man there who got up and said that his son was excelling at math, but that his daughter would only be taught 'consumer math'. I asked him about this and he said that she only needed the math skills necessary to balance a checkbook. Basic addition and subtraction at grade-two level. He is effectively cutting off her future by denying her an education. What options will she have to earn any money to fill up a checking account? What will happen when she meets kids outside of her family and realizes that she knows nothing about science, math, history...etc.? What if she decides she wants to become a doctor? No math. No science. No hope.

Parents who refuse to educate their children are committing child abuse, IMO. Denying them their own liberty and pursuit of happiness. And, in the case of the FLDS, the right to their own lives. FLDS children are not permitted to become free citizens when they turn 18. Everyone has the right to have the opportunity to grow up and decide their own lives for themeselves. Parents who intentionally force their young girls to be sexually assaulted by creepy old men are guilty of the exact same thing as Warren Jeffs. A person can try to call it 'underage spiritual marriage', and whitewash the sickening habits of the child molestors. They can lie to the girls and refuse to let them learn anything except what is indoctrinated by the criminal adults in their cult . It is still sexual abuse of a child and it will forever be wrong.

 

[SewingDeb]

Truly, it is shocking that this kind of attitude toward a young girl's education even exists. I agree with you that is child abuse.

I also agree that the FDLS effectively cut off any choice for the future for their members. It is wrong that they teach the girls that they are expected to marry early (and to whomever their prophet gives them to) and have a baby a year.

I think it is this patriarchal attitude that really gets to me. Young girls deserves the same choices for their futures as everyone else in this country, including choosing their marriage partner. Pairing them with old men is disgusting!

 

[Truly]

I know, Deb! It was shocking! Fortunately, the next speaker at the banquet was a doctor who spoke eloquently about how her and her husband are providing an exceptional education to their young daughter. It is the patriarchal nonsense that bothers most people. Nobody wants kids in America to be raised by Taliban-like religious extremists, (With the exception, of course, of the religious extremists like the Fundamentalist LDS and their supporters! That is exactly what they are forcing upon children. No choice on who or when to marry. No chance for girls and women to make their own decisions. It is quite twisted.) The one nasty 'father' at the banquet was such an arrogant man. Calling himself a Christian. Ha! And he didn't even do any of the teaching... that was his wife's (unpaid) job. People who refuse to educate their kids have a big wake-up call awaiting them when the children grow up and resent the parents for denying them an education. The FLDS have imprisoned their children in locked compounds; they are 400 times worse than the father who imprisoned Elisabeth Fritzl in the basement in Austria.

I don't know why there are some American parents who don't ensure that their kids learn math, science, history...etc., in addition to whatever their personal beliefs are. Because, provided they don't lock the kids up in armed compounds like the FLDS do, the kids are going to become aware of all that they have missed. But no. The fundamentalist extremists of all stripes teach nothing but their dogma. I want popcorn when these kids wake up!

Fortunately, everyone besides the FLDS lived through the seventies in America, and will never go back to the days when women were nothing but the property and chattle of men. People will fight and die to protect the rights which so many women have fought and died for.

 

[Details]

I adore you Details, but hope this point of view never ever catches on in our Courts! Parents have the right to teach their kids whatever the heck they want without government interference. They do anyway!

If we want everyone to pass a citizenship test when they're 18 to be official - fine. But government should be far far removed from curriculum (formal and informal) of private educational pursuits. If the gov sticks their nose in private schooling, we'll have much of the BS private schoolers seek to escape - evolution, history, compulsory moral stances. Yuck! Yuck, yuck, yuck!

Nope - simple education. Parents should have the right to teach their children whatever the heck they want - but children should have the right to enough education to choose their own path in the world. A child should learn that they have a right not to be abused - particularly if the parent doesn't want them to learn that. A child must be taught the basics about the laws in the world. And a child deserves an education that allows them to move on in the world - the basics of reading, writing, math, history (FLDS members say they didn't even know who the president was - thought it might be Jeffs), etc. No parent should have the right to educate their child only to the role they want to force them into.

Children are not our posessions, they are our responsibilities. And we've got tons of leeway in how we raise them - but I do think there are minimum standards.

 

[southcitymom]

Nope - simple education. Parents should have the right to teach their children whatever the heck they want - but children should have the right to enough education to choose their own path in the world. A child should learn that they have a right not to be abused - particularly if the parent doesn't want them to learn that. A child must be taught the basics about the laws in the world. And a child deserves an education that allows them to move on in the world - the basics of reading, writing, math, history (FLDS members say they didn't even know who the president was - thought it might be Jeffs), etc. No parent should have the right to educate their child only to the role they want to force them into.

Children are not our posessions, they are our responsibilities. And we've got tons of leeway in how we raise them - but I do think there are minimum standards.

I agree completely - and it is our (the parents, not the government)responsibility to decide what their educational standards (minimum and otherwise) will be!

 

[SewingDeb]

I agree Details. There should definitely be minimum standards for education.

You said: Fortunately, everyone besides the FLDS lived through the seventies in America, and will never go back to the days when women were nothing but the property and chattle of men. People will fight and die to protect the rights which so many women have fought and died for.

Imo, it should be a crime not to give these women their equality as human beings. Religion or not!

 

[southcitymom]

I agree Details. There should definitely be minimum standards for education.

You said: Fortunately, everyone besides the FLDS lived through the seventies in America, and will never go back to the days when women were nothing but the property and chattle of men. People will fight and die to protect the rights which so many women have fought and died for.

Imo, it should be a crime not to give these women their equality as human beings. Religion or not!

I think we all agree with this. I think the disgreement is about what entity should set those standards and what those standards should be.

 

[yolorado]

It's deeply disturbing to me that the FLDS exists and thrives in this country. Why do we even have laws if we don't enforce them? The FLDS society continues to repress its women and children and to thrive while thwarting the laws of this land regarding bigamy, under age marriage, and various court orders in addition to the possibility of labor code violations and welfare abuse. Beyond that, they evoke the constitution whenever it suits them while ignoring it if it doesn't. They cry out for public understanding and assistance if they consider themselves oppressed but thumb their noses at 'us' all other times. They rant and rave against 'us.' They see themselves as having done no wrong. They think 'we' are all bad. They insist 'they' are only good. They whine that everyone is persecuting them and lying, but apparently, they can lie with impunity. They lie about who they are when they purchase land. They sheltered and protected Jeffs when he was a fugitive from the law. Indeed, they continue to venerate Warren Jeffs as their prophet. His picture was on their walls after the raid. This is a man who re-assigns wives, who casts out unwanted male members, dumping them on 'us,' who is in jail for child abuse, who kisses twelve year olds and whose own nephew says Jeffs molested him. These people have no use for American society in general unless it's to line their pockets with tax dollars from government contracts or to take government assistance to support their lifestyle, one which the majority of US citizens find abhorrent. It's completely annoying that these people continue to ply their cult in this country. Why can't they find some place to be other than here?

 

[southcitymom]

It's deeply disturbing to me that the FLDS exists and thrives in this country. Why do we even have laws if we don't enforce them? The FLDS society continues to repress its women and children and to thrive while thwarting the laws of this land regarding bigamy, under age marriage, and various court orders in addition to the possibility of labor code violations and welfare abuse. Beyond that, they evoke the constitution whenever it suits them while ignoring it if it doesn't. They cry out for public understanding and assistance if they consider themselves oppressed but thumb their noses at 'us' all other times. They rant and rave against 'us.' They see themselves as having done no wrong. They think 'we' are all bad. They insist 'they' are only good. They whine that everyone is persecuting them and lying, but apparently, they can lie with impunity. They lie about who they are when they purchase land. They sheltered and protected Jeffs when he was a fugitive from the law. Indeed, they continue to venerate Warren Jeffs as their prophet. His picture was on their walls after the raid. This is a man who re-assigns wives, who casts out unwanted male members, dumping them on 'us,' who is in jail for child abuse, who kisses twelve year olds and whose own nephew says Jeffs molested him. These people have no use for American society in general unless it's to line their pockets with tax dollars from government contracts or to take government assistance to support their lifestyle, one which the majority of US citizens find abhorrent. It's completely annoying that these people continue to ply their cult in this country. Why can't they find some place to be other than here?

Thanks for your input, vol.

I did want to repost a link Glow posted on another thread in this forum that states unequivocally that these folks were self-sustaining and not on welfare. In fact, they paid a good deal of taxes into the system. It looks like a lot of the noise about them funding themselves via givernment assistance was smoke and mirrors:

Prior to the raid the YFZ community was self sustaining. According to the Deseret News of May 18, 2008, “the Texas Health and Human Services Commission has reported that none of the families who are members of the west Texas FLDS sect targeted by child protective services were on welfare.” In addition, the children were attending a private school, which received no public funds.
The cost to taxpayers since the raid, however, has been staggering. The Austin American-Statesman of May 21, 2008 estimates the entire population of Schleicher County as about 3,000, with an annual budget of $3.9 million. Court costs for the raid are expected to top $2.25 million even before attorney fees are added. Most of these expenses the county is obligated to pay.
Far from being a burden to taxpayers, the YFZ community prior to the raid was one of the largest taxpaying entities in Schleicher County. According to the Schleicher County Appraisal District, the assessed valuation of the community, including land and improvements, is $21 million. From 2004 to 2007, the FLDS have paid $1 million in property taxes, and the figure has been climbing every year.

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/inde...tid=1&index=41

 

[yolorado]

Thanks for your input, vol.

I did want to repost a link Glow posted on another thread in this forum that states unequivocally that these folks were self-sustaining and not on welfare. In fact, they paid a good deal of taxes into the system. It looks like a lot of the noise about them funding themselves via givernment assistance was smoke and mirrors:

Prior to the raid the YFZ community was self sustaining. According to the Deseret News of May 18, 2008, “the Texas Health and Human Services Commission has reported that none of the families who are members of the west Texas FLDS sect targeted by child protective services were on welfare.” In addition, the children were attending a private school, which received no public funds.
The cost to taxpayers since the raid, however, has been staggering. The Austin American-Statesman of May 21, 2008 estimates the entire population of Schleicher County as about 3,000, with an annual budget of $3.9 million. Court costs for the raid are expected to top $2.25 million even before attorney fees are added. Most of these expenses the county is obligated to pay.
Far from being a burden to taxpayers, the YFZ community prior to the raid was one of the largest taxpaying entities in Schleicher County. According to the Schleicher County Appraisal District, the assessed valuation of the community, including land and improvements, is $21 million. From 2004 to 2007, the FLDS have paid $1 million in property taxes, and the figure has been climbing every year.

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/inde...tid=1&index=41

No government contracts? No WIC? No food stamps? NO EIC? No AFCD? No state education funds? No government funds toward the sustinance of cast out young males or escaped young women dumped on society? No CPS investigations necesitated by the cults known 'religious practices.' You assume the CPS investigation wasn't necessary. I assume it was and blame the FLDS for necesitating it. I'm not just talking about TX. I'm talking about UT and AZ as well and thinking about a Youtube video I saw with a state legislator talking about the disproportinate share of welfare (and other government funds) having been paid to recipients in Hilldale. What about the costs to the states of UT and AZ to prosecute cases against Jeffs and other convicted child abusers, like the man who married two of his 12 or 13 year old daughters or step daughters ? Anyone who owned the TX land would pay the property taxes and I wish it was anyone but this group, someone who had been honest about who they were and why they were buying the property when they bought it. They are in the vast minority, so I don't understand why they can't find some other country. Maybe they'll have less chance of being 'misunderstood' or 'persucuted' somewhere else.

'They' think 'we're' misguided and evil. Most of 'us' think exactly the same thing about 'them.' Oh, I know, they insist haven't done anything wrong. They assert they are all sweetness and light. It's all other people persecuting them. They're pure and good and honest. Everyone else is lying. Everyone else is wrong. Everyone else baaaaad. Blah, blah, blah. If they want to live this way, if they don't want to participate with us in a general society, why can't they just go somewhere else? Mexico, Guatemala, Saudi Arabia. Anywhere out of here. They don't like us or our way. We don't like them or their ways. Why do they stay?

 

[southcitymom]

No government contracts? No WIC? No food stamps? NO EIC? No AFCD? No state education funds? No government funds toward the sustinance of cast out young males or escaped young women dumped on society? No CPS investigations necesitated by the cults known 'religious practices.' You assume the CPS investigation wasn't necessary. I assume it was and blame the FLDS for necesitating it. I'm not just talking about TX. I'm talking about UT and AZ as well and thinking about a Youtube video I saw with a state legislator talking about the disproportinate share of welfare (and other government funds) having been paid to recipients in Hilldale. What about the costs to the states of UT and AZ to prosecute cases against Jeffs and other convicted child abusers, like the man who married two of his 12 or 13 year old daughters or step daughters ? Anyone who owned the TX land would pay the property taxes and I wish it was anyone but this group, someone who had been honest about who they were and why they were buying the property when they bought it. They are in the vast minority, so I don't understand why they can't find some other country. Maybe they'll have less chance of being 'misunderstood' or 'persucuted' somewhere else.

'They' think 'we're' misguided and evil. Most of 'us' think exactly the same thing about 'them.' Oh, I know, they insist haven't done anything wrong. They assert they are all sweetness and light. It's all other people persecuting them. They're pure and good and honest. Everyone else is lying. Everyone else is wrong. Everyone else baaaaad. Blah, blah, blah. If they want to live this way, if they don't want to participate with us in a general society, why can't they just go somewhere else? Mexico, Guatemala, Saudi Arabia. Anywhere out of here. They don't like us or our way. We don't like them or their ways. Why do they stay?

The link I posted only spoke about this particular FLDS compound.

Other than the fact that they have lived here for so long, I suspect they stay because America is famous for religious tolerance and takes it seriously. I do not, of course, think members of religious groups should escape prosecution when they break our laws, and I do not mind paying to prosecute those who break our laws.

But I love that our country is grounded, in part, by individual freedom to practice religion as one sees fit - even if some of those practices are unpopular or repugnant to the majority of us.

It is a balancing act though. So much of living in a free nation is a balancing act.

 

[yolorado]

The following exerpt says well what I've been thinking feeling and praying about every since this raid occurred. I will continue to wonder, when the FLDS seem so determined to separate their 'righteous selves' themselves from the rest of us 'sinful cretins, ' why they don't do so more forcefully, more geograhpically? There are other countries and places.

By Sarah Holland
San Angelo Standard-Times
Originally published Thursday, June 12, 2008


"The YFZ Ranch does appear to have, in a manner of speaking, its own laws; financial and food regulations; sexual code; peculiar version of world history; perception of wicked, if not demonized, outsiders and, by definition, its own borders, for which no passport or visa save obedience to the FLDS is deemed good enough to allow entry.

On their own testimony and according to their faith, the people of the YFZ Ranch are a group of reclusive devotees who built a gated community to emulate a city so righteous that its residents ascended to heaven, or to quote Ken Driggs, attorney and expert on the FLDS; " taken to Heaven to meet Christ and be rescued from the wicked Earth." Presumably, the rest of us will be stuck down here forever on our "wicked Earth," which is hardly a belief system that endears this sect to me or, indeed, the rest of my fellow "wicked Earth" dwellers.

Furthermore and also on their own testimony, the FLDS are trained, apparently from birth, to be afraid of us - our food, our lifestyles and our technology. Like paranoid loners, they hide behind high walls and, when questioned, destroy legal documents to ensure that "we" never find out what they're doing.

Finally, they appear, once again on their own testimony, to be teaching their children that underage sex is acceptable, and multiple sexual partners within "spiritual marriage" is the norm.

Outside the high walls of the YFZ compound, we call that list of practices and behaviors: brainwashing, conspiracy, child abuse, statutory rape, fraud and adultery. Yet the YFZ folk seem to have reclassified it along with a number of other trifling laws from "wicked Earth" such as being legally married and registering the birth of a child with the names of both parents.

In fact, the more one hears of this situation, the more one wonders whether their brains have been completely reversed. It reminds me of that scene in Oliver Stone's movie, "JFK," where Kevin Costner says: "We're through the looking glass, people. Black is white and white is black. "

But this astonishing ability for denying reality pales into insignificance beside the alleged worship of their great spiritual leader, Warren Jeffs, the man who is serving five years to life in a Utah jail for "rape by accomplice."

Here is another thing for which we must thank CPS: The weeklong raid begun April 3 is precisely what finally destroyed Warren Jeffs' reputation at the YFZ Ranch. Clearly, up until the raid, his people had been able to turn a blind eye to his illegal practices along with his arrest, conviction and imprisonment.

But thanks to the CPS, Jeffs was suddenly on every news channel in America, paraded every 15 minutes like the Demon King at the pantomime in his orange suit and chains, and no matter what else can be said for television news, it is regulated, monitored and simply not allowed to tell lies.

It must have been quite a shock to his followers to see him so completely exposed as a con man and a criminal, but it would be a much nastier and infinitely more damaging shock if one of their 12-year-old daughters lost her innocence to him or one of his sinister accomplices.

I'm sure every woman who saw that photograph of Jeffs kissing a 12-year-old girl remembered being 12 and felt a pang of sadness for what looked like her shining-eyed adoration of this monster. Most 12-year-old girls assume all romantic attention from men is just that: romantic.

In the case of Jeffs, it was rather more sinister. And if just one mother at the YFZ compound has recognized this and taken steps to protect her children, then she really ought to thank the CPS along with the rest of us."

Exactly, Sarah. Exactly.