Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #7

[GigiG]

JM was not so certain of the inevitability of the verdict. And only one possibly biased/tainted juror stood in the way of the DP.

There is IMO nothing inevitable about verdicts or sentencing in jury trials. From all after the fact indications, IMO the foreman #1 would have voted a lesser charge if the had taken Nurmi's advice and not gone for self-defense.

This! ^^

I think/know you're talking about the penalty phase, but I still insist that she could have gotten off with 2nd degree in the guilt phase had a few things worked out differently.

Think about it: If JM hadn't found those magazine messages; if he hadn't put together the gas can evidence, etc., that would change everything...

Also, if it had been some other prosecutor...

Or, if she had come clean right from the start and confessed, no further investigation would have taken place, so no gas cans, etc. would have made it into the trial...

My point is, early on, she had every reason to believe she could get off on 2nd degree, and every opportunity to make that happen; and were it not for her extreme hubris, she might have been successful. She has only her incredible arrogance to blame (and JM's excellent work!) for where she is now.

Karma, thy name is Jodi Arias...

 

[krkrjx]

This! ^^

I think/know you're talking about the penalty phase, but I still insist that she could have gotten off with 2nd degree in the guilt phase had a few things worked out differently.

Think about it: If JM hadn't found those magazine messages; if he hadn't put together the gas can evidence, etc., that would change everything...

Also, if it had been some other prosecutor...

Or, if she had come clean right from the start and confessed, no further investigation would have taken place, so no gas cans, etc. would have made it into the trial...

My point is, early on, she had every reason to believe she could get off on 2nd degree, and every opportunity to make that happen; and were it not for her extreme hubris, she might have been successful. She has only her incredible arrogance to blame (and JM's excellent work!) for where she is now.

Karma, thy name is Jodi Arias...

I agree with this all the way! There are a number of things she could have done to save herself from a life sentence. She could easily have gotten a second degree murder conviction had she played her cards right and I would lay odds that her defense team informed her right away of what needed to be done and all but begged and pleaded with the killer to play along. But she wouldn't. She couldn't. She is not capable of doing what needs to be done even to save her own life! She has to say things her way, do things her way, and not just ignore the advice of those wiser by leaps and bounds, but do a complete 180 from what they advise.

Arias is incapable of toeing the mark. While she went to great lengths to say and do all that served her purpose, her purpose was woefully misguided...it should have been to lessen the damage and save her from natural life behind bars or possibly even a death sentence but instead she had to have her say, to make sure everyone knew her story, to annihilate Travis' reputation as if murdering him wasn't enough, and to hurt his loved ones as completely and as often as possible. That was her purpose and it trumped all else. What a piece of work she is!

 

[TexMex]

Her trial strategy was scorched earth after her plan for pleading guilty to second degree was rejected by the Alexander family.
A second degree conviction would mean she's out of jail when she's about 50 years old. Once that was off the table imo she knew she'd get a life sentence and in her mind it was time to punish her victims family for taking HER life

 

[Madeleine74]

This! ^^

I think/know you're talking about the penalty phase, but I still insist that she could have gotten off with 2nd degree in the guilt phase had a few things worked out differently.

Think about it: If JM hadn't found those magazine messages; if he hadn't put together the gas can evidence, etc., that would change everything...

Also, if it had been some other prosecutor...

Or, if she had come clean right from the start and confessed, no further investigation would have taken place, so no gas cans, etc. would have made it into the trial...

My point is, early on, she had every reason to believe she could get off on 2nd degree, and every opportunity to make that happen; and were it not for her extreme hubris, she might have been successful. She has only her incredible arrogance to blame (and JM's excellent work!) for where she is now.

Karma, thy name is Jodi Arias...

People love to play the 'if / 'then' game as a way of arguing a point.

Okay, let's take it to the 5,000 ft. level:

IF JA had never gone to Mesa TA would still be alive, then JA would not have been on trial for his murder.
IF no evidence had ever been found to tie JA to TA's murder, then JA would never have been arrested, jailed, convicted for TA's murder.

See how that works?

But JA did go to Mesa, did murder Travis, did leave behind evidence, evidence was found, evidence of JA covering up the crime or attempting to was found, JA did go on a couple newsmagazine shows, JA did tell ridiculous lies that were EASY to uncover, JA did save receipts, JA did keep them in a box in her room, police did do a search and did find things... and on and on and on. It was all the various people doing their jobs as they are trained to do that caught Arias, and without much trouble. She was the *only* suspect from day 1. She helped point the finger to herself in addition. And JA did settle on a final self-defense claim because the other 2 claims had been proved not true long before the trial, and JA and her BPD and other mental issue didn't cause her to come clean or take responsibility.

Because JA isn't as smart as *she* believes, because there is no perfect murder, because JA's lies are so patently ridiculous that one can't help but laugh at her, and because JA was transparent with a history of stalking type behaviors, everything happened the way it did and no one could deny those things did occur.

Her being convicted of murder was (IMO) a slam dunk. Because she did do all those things and there was evidence to prove it.

 

[Hope4More]

Her trial strategy was scorched earth after her plan for pleading guilty to second degree was rejected by the Alexander family.
A second degree conviction would mean she's out of jail when she's about 50 years old. Once that was off the table imo she knew she'd get a life sentence and in her mind it was time to punish her victims family for taking HER life

Yah, I'm sure she knew JSS was going to give her natural life. I think the had planned on going with just what became act II, though, including her underwhelming statement of "remorse:" I'm disgusted with myself.

Nurmi has said she didn't get his OK about her sadistic attack on Samantha, though the claimed he'd given it. I don't think she planned to say those words. She stumbled over saying TA was still conscious when she slit his throat, IMO because she had a sense she was making a mistake (for herself) but couldn't control her need to inflict that pain.

I think she began the attack because she refused to allow TA's family to have the last word, and yah, because she wanted to punish them because of course it was all their fault she was about to be put away for life, their fault she said mean words about Travis, their fault she was ever put on trial at all.

I remember JM being asked, immediately after sentencing, his thoughts on why she spat out those words. He got a curious look on his face, and a hint of a smile, and said- "I suppose she thought it would benefit her in some way."

I've always wondered if JM, Tanisha, and Samantha set the up, Tanisha and Samantha saying the only comfort they could find is that Travis wasn't aware at that moment , JM bringing up that moment as well. Because they all knew the wouldn't be able to pass up an opportunity to torment TA's family, and would fully reveal her evil loathsome self in the telling.

 

[Hope4More]

This! ^^

I think/know you're talking about the penalty phase, but I still insist that she could have gotten off with 2nd degree in the guilt phase had a few things worked out differently.

Think about it: If JM hadn't found those magazine messages; if he hadn't put together the gas can evidence, etc., that would change everything...

Also, if it had been some other prosecutor...

Or, if she had come clean right from the start and confessed, no further investigation would have taken place, so no gas cans, etc. would have made it into the trial...

My point is, early on, she had every reason to believe she could get off on 2nd degree, and every opportunity to make that happen; and were it not for her extreme hubris, she might have been successful. She has only her incredible arrogance to blame (and JM's excellent work!) for where she is now.

Karma, thy name is Jodi Arias...

Actually, I was referring to the guilt phase trial.

I very much agree with you that a second degree conviction was theoretically possible, and IMO the only variable that had to be different was the agreeing to Nurmi's heat of passion strategy.

Heat of passion meant no pedo accusations, less emphasis on sex (Nurmi has alluded to flooding the jury with sex to drown out the pedo accusations he thought would land her on death row), making her BPD central to her defense, a more holistic narrative of the (JM has pointed this out, saying he thought the focus on sex was a strategic error), and most importantly, no on the stand for 18 days, her mask slipping with each day on cross.

Accept Nurmi's strategy and shut up. That's all. Not to be truthful, and she could still have puked up her lies about physical and emotional abuse.

IMO, the only explanation for her refusal to listen to Nurmi is she believed she was justified in killing Travis, shouldn't be held accountable, and that she could convince a jury of that. I mean, this is a who believed for years she could sell a jury on her ninjas story.

Remember her post conviction interview? When she said the jury had "betrayed" her? The little bit she threw in with that she could understand the felony murder charge sticking, maybe, because the law was written in such a way as to FORCE the jury to convict her on that, but premeditation? No, that was entirely unexpected. Period, pause. "Because that's not what happened."

((The being the , of course during that interview she blamed her DT as well as the jury as well as Travis as well as TA's family)).

 

[krkrjx]

Actually, I was referring to the guilt phase trial.

I very much agree with you that a second degree conviction was theoretically possible, and IMO the only variable that had to be different was the agreeing to Nurmi's heat of passion strategy.

Heat of passion meant no pedo accusations, less emphasis on sex (Nurmi has alluded to flooding the jury with sex to drown out the pedo accusations he thought would land her on death row), making her BPD central to her defense, a more holistic narrative of the (JM has pointed this out, saying he thought the focus on sex was a strategic error), and most importantly, no on the stand for 18 days, her mask slipping with each day on cross.

Accept Nurmi's strategy and shut up. That's all. Not to be truthful, and she could still have puked up her lies about physical and emotional abuse.

IMO, the only explanation for her refusal to listen to Nurmi is she believed she was justified in killing Travis, shouldn't be held accountable, and that she could convince a jury of that. I mean, this is a who believed for years she could sell a jury on her ninjas story.

Remember her post conviction interview? When she said the jury had "betrayed" her? The little bit she threw in with that she could understand the felony murder charge sticking, maybe, because the law was written in such a way as to FORCE the jury to convict her on that, but premeditation? No, that was entirely unexpected. Period, pause. "Because that's not what happened."

((The being the , of course during that interview she blamed her DT as well as the jury as well as Travis as well as TA's family)).

The defense strategy would have had to be very different for any hope of a second-degree conviction but it was never out of the realm of possibility going in. Killer quashed what possibility there might have been, however, with her testiphony. She had no way to know going into this that she would have such a kindred soul in the jury foreman but she did in fact score that and once that occurred her tiny chance of second degree murder conviction became much less microscopic...that is the sole reason I believe that had she played the game the way her DT would have liked, she could have come away with second degree rather than first degree. Foremen admitted after the fact that her testifying as she did is what did her in in the jury's collective mind. I believe he felt just terrible for having to go along with first degree but after she spoke, what choice did he have? Had she kept her mouth shut or at least practiced a bit of restraint when she did speak, I think there is a good possibility Foreman might have caved in her favor and she could have gotten off with second degree, or maybe a hung jury on the guilt phase.

That's just how I viewed it. I guess you could say that for me there was sufficient circumstantial evidence for this to have ended with her getting a possibility of parole one day. So I, for one, am happy as a clam that the killer could not keep her yap shut!

 

[LinasK]

Yes, but he's in jail and will be convicted (I predict) of his friend's death. Durst is a serial killer, he's actually much more dangerous than Arias.

She would have been if not arrested when she was- she had another gun and knives in her car at the time of arrest in Yreka. She was more vicious in her manner of death- the overkill with 3 different methods than somebody like Casey Anthony. That's what is her lure.

 

[LinasK]

I think everyone knew she would give self-defense her best shot, as obvious a lie as it was, but after the guilty verdict, and the specially cruel verdict, after it was clear no one, particularly the jury, believed her, to then not even miss a beat and to allocute as a domestic violence victim, to produce survivor T-shirts, for sale! to give so little reality to others' point of view and to maintain her own with such total disregard, to the people who had her life in their hands, I think couldn't help but surprise people not familiar with psychopathy.

Even at sentencing when there was the last thin chance to someday be free, she blew past it without even blinking, and just saw it as an opportunity to tell the same old story, to insist that her point of view was the only one that mattered.

You know, that Chutzpah is the same as George Zimmerman now trying to sell the murder weapon and act like he's a hero and that the Smithsonian wanted it!

 

[LinasK]

She was still facing a death sentence, so of course she was going to continue her ruse the whole way. It worked; she didn't get sentenced to death, although LWOP is maybe only marginally better.

Even upon sentencing, she didn't give it up, zero remorse- she tried to hurt Travis's family by admitting he was conscious when she slit his throat.

 

[LinasK]

Her trial strategy was scorched earth after her plan for pleading guilty to second degree was rejected by the Alexander family.
A second degree conviction would mean she's out of jail when she's about 50 years old. Once that was off the table imo she knew she'd get a life sentence and in her mind it was time to punish her victims family for taking HER life

Actually, I think Juan made that decision, not the Alexanders. A plea deal was never offered to her, her team proposed it.

 

[LinasK]

Yah, I'm sure she knew JSS was going to give her natural life. I think the had planned on going with just what became act II, though, including her underwhelming statement of "remorse:" I'm disgusted with myself.

Nurmi has said she didn't get his OK about her sadistic attack on Samantha, though the claimed he'd given it. I don't think she planned to say those words. She stumbled over saying TA was still conscious when she slit his throat, IMO because she had a sense she was making a mistake (for herself) but couldn't control her need to inflict that pain.

I think she began the attack because she refused to allow TA's family to have the last word, and yah, because she wanted to punish them because of course it was all their fault she was about to be put away for life, their fault she said mean words about Travis, their fault she was ever put on trial at all.

I remember JM being asked, immediately after sentencing, his thoughts on why she spat out those words. He got a curious look on his face, and a hint of a smile, and said- "I suppose she thought it would benefit her in some way."

I've always wondered if JM, Tanisha, and Samantha set the up, Tanisha and Samantha saying the only comfort they could find is that Travis wasn't aware at that moment , JM bringing up that moment as well. Because they all knew the wouldn't be able to pass up an opportunity to torment TA's family, and would fully reveal her evil loathsome self in the telling.

I agree with most of the above, except for setting her up. She should never have been allowed the last word because she would never express remorse. They wouldn't knowingly allow her to figuratively twist the knife.
She tried to justify the murder in her letter to them. She mentioned how she had to do it. She blamed it on his character.

 

[TexMex]

Actually, I think Juan made that decision, not the Alexanders. A plea deal was never offered to her, her team proposed it.

Yes. It's the State's job to officially reject it. IIRC Juan spoke with the family and informed them of the offer by Jodi to plead guilty to Second degree, avoid a trial and avoid her threats to damage Travis's reputation.
But right, the State never offered a deal like that. It was the defense that proposed the plea

 

[LinasK]

Actually, I was referring to the guilt phase trial.

I very much agree with you that a second degree conviction was theoretically possible, and IMO the only variable that had to be different was the agreeing to Nurmi's heat of passion strategy.

Heat of passion meant no pedo accusations, less emphasis on sex (Nurmi has alluded to flooding the jury with sex to drown out the pedo accusations he thought would land her on death row), making her BPD central to her defense, a more holistic narrative of the (JM has pointed this out, saying he thought the focus on sex was a strategic error), and most importantly, no on the stand for 18 days, her mask slipping with each day on cross.

Accept Nurmi's strategy and shut up. That's all. Not to be truthful, and she could still have puked up her lies about physical and emotional abuse.

IMO, the only explanation for her refusal to listen to Nurmi is she believed she was justified in killing Travis, shouldn't be held accountable, and that she could convince a jury of that. I mean, this is a who believed for years she could sell a jury on her ninjas story.

Remember her post conviction interview? When she said the jury had "betrayed" her? The little bit she threw in with that she could understand the felony murder charge sticking, maybe, because the law was written in such a way as to FORCE the jury to convict her on that, but premeditation? No, that was entirely unexpected. Period, pause. "Because that's not what happened."

((The being the , of course during that interview she blamed her DT as well as the jury as well as Travis as well as TA's family)).

Well of course the jury betrayed her! Remember "No jury will ever convict me"?

 

[LinasK]

Yes. It's the State's job to officially reject it. IIRC Juan spoke with the family and informed them of the offer by Jodi to plead guilty to Second degree, avoid a trial and avoid her threats to damage Travis's reputation.
But right, the State never offered a deal like that. It was the defense that proposed the plea

Even if Alexanders had said okay, I don't see that Juan would have accepted. The manner of overkill and 2 weapons was so vicious it merited 1st degree. This was no self-defense, heat of passion killing.

 

[Steve44]

You know, that Chutzpah is the same as George Zimmerman now trying to sell the murder weapon and act like he's a hero and that the Smithsonian wanted it!

Small mind in a big world, trying to be somebody for all the wrong reasons.

 

[Madeleine74]

A 2nd degree never would have been accepted because in order for 2nd degree murder there has to be a total absence of premeditation. That's why Arias so desperately tried her 3rd and final story of self-defense. It was the only possible way for her team to try and claim she had no choice.

However...

The use of TWO weapons alone quashes that theory. The moment someone is stabbed and then stabbed a bunch more times, that demonstrates the intention to kill. And into his back when clearly you could have run away if you were under attack. Then slashing a throat (again, instead of running away to safety) proves more deliberation. Then picking up a gun and firing it into the already deceased body is yet more on top. And then, the photos that she thought she had deleted/destroyed that literally showed her dragging his body after slashing his throat, the attempt to try and cleanup the crime scene, wash his bedding... it just went on and on.

And that's even before any consideration is made of all her pre-planning, of which there was ample evidence (a voluminous list, actually) that nails her coffin shut.

She was screwed six ways to Sunday and she did it to herself after annihilating Travis. There was so much evidence in this case I couldn't believe how much. Direct evidence + Circumstantial Evidence. A motherlode.

 

[TexMex]

A 2nd degree never would have been accepted because in order for 2nd degree murder there has to be a total absence of premeditation. That's why Arias so desperately tried her 3rd and final story of self-defense. It was the only possible way for her team to try and claim she had no choice.

However...

The use of TWO weapons alone quashes that theory. The moment someone is stabbed and then stabbed a bunch more times, that demonstrates the intention to kill. And into his back when clearly you could have run away if you were under attack. Then slashing a throat (again, instead of running away to safety) proves more deliberation. Then picking up a gun and firing it into the already deceased body is yet more on top. And then, the photos that she thought she had deleted/destroyed that literally showed her dragging his body after slashing his throat, the attempt to try and cleanup the crime scene, wash his bedding... it just went on and on.

And that's even before any consideration is made of all her pre-planning, of which there was ample evidence (a voluminous list, actually) that nails her coffin shut.

She was screwed six ways to Sunday and she did it to herself after annihilating Travis. There was so much evidence in this case I couldn't believe how much. Direct evidence + Circumstantial Evidence. A motherlode.

So if both sides, after consulting with the family, agreed to a second degree plea a judge wouldn't sign off on it?


AZ Statute


13-1104. Second degree murder; classification

A. A person commits second degree murder if without premeditation:

1. The person intentionally causes the death of another person, including an unborn child or, as a result of intentionally causing the death of another person, causes the death of an unborn child; or

2. Knowing that the person's conduct will cause death or serious physical injury, the person causes the death of another person, including an unborn child or, as a result of knowingly causing the death of another person, causes the death of an unborn child; or

3. Under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to human life, the person recklessly engages in conduct that creates a grave risk of death and thereby causes the death of another person, including an unborn child or, as a result of recklessly causing the death of another person, causes the death of an unborn child.

B. An offense under this section applies to an unborn child in the womb at any stage of its development. A person may not be prosecuted under this section if any of the following applies:

1. The person was performing an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on the pregnant woman's behalf, has been obtained or for which the consent was implied or authorized by law.

2. The person was performing medical treatment on the pregnant woman or the pregnant woman's unborn child.

3. The person was the unborn child's mother.

 

[Madeleine74]

No I mean a jury, looking at the evidence, the totality of it, would not (IMO) be able to say there was no premeditation and no pre-planning involved. By its very definition, and based on the evidence that proved premeditation (and also proved pre-planning, though that's not a requirement), it's first degree premeditated murder.

That said, *IF* the family and *IF* the state had agreed to allowed JA to take a 2nd degree plea and thus not go through a trial, that's a whole different thing. Plea deals are a staple of the justice system in all jurisdictions, but in this particular case, it was not something that would have been (or was) agreed to by either the family or the state. Of course judges allow plea deals to go forward...all the time. The judge would not have stopped it had it occurred.

 

[TexMex]

Rainy weather meal

Chili