Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #8

[pocketaccent]

Nothing wrong with firm beliefs...

In response to why she had someone (MM) email PDF's to Nurmi annonymously...

It is interesting, I think, but I think so for perhaps a different reason. If she had indeed forged them beforehand, and sent or given them to MM as PDFs, it would have SUPPORTED her story to tell Nurmi that she'd done so, rather than to conjure up a fictious "Bob White" who couldn't be located.

That is so for two reasons. First, as Nurmi explained in his book, he felt obligated to go all out in trying to find Bob White, a search he said began the end of what had been a reasonably good relationship with the . She really really didn't want him to look for Bob White.

How much easier & better for her it would have been if she could have told Nurmi that she'd destroyed the originals, but beforehand, had made a copy of the letters & sent them to MM, which was in part why he was so willing to testify that TA had in fact been abusive.


The other benefit of having MM acknowledge being the sender is that his doing so would have removed the chief legal barrier to having the letters admitted into evidence. Copies couldn't be admitted without authentication, and MM testifying that she'd sent them to him would have served as that authentication.

As for the no creases. As I've said, I think Debbie Maran nailed it with her detailed (with pics) analysis of why she thought the letters were cut & pasted. She even analyzed spacing between words, and where periods were placed.

There was no need for the to smuggle out full page forgeries, and she had no means of doing so. What she had were index cards. Even the pedo letter wasn't extremely long- maybe 6-8 index cards worth of writing.

I have no doubt she'd have been able to smuggle out those cards, to be cut & pasted by MM (or to be fair, whomever), then copied to remove the obvious traces of that cutting & pasting.

I just read Debbie Maran's post and am not convinced at all the letters were cut and pasted. To my eyes, those misplaced periods and uneven spacing are result of JA simply not doing a perfect job.

((I'm sorry dear Travis)) but he had a terrible handwriting. Some words, sometimes many words in a row, he would write boldly, sometimes his words are written legible then turn illegible, back to legible again. Words on the forged letter look too legible (for Travis) and feminine. I'm even more convinced JA handwrote the letter.

I have not a clue why the letters were sent anonymously.
What you said about that was spot on. Simpler was so much better.

First I need to know why MM would help her out at all when he knew the letters were forged whether she gave to him pre-murder or she ordered him to forge himself post-ninjas. Unless he really believed her abuse and pedo lies..
I often think that he helped her burglarize grandpa's home in some way and that's how he became her menion or hostage.

 

[Hope4More]

I don't disagree with this interpretation. But I agee with my interpretation more. lol.

Remember on June 3, Travis asking Brooke who knows about them on facebook and texting each other? And he wondered if others told her something about him?
This is after June 2, 1 hour phone with the .

I just read Debbie Maran's post and am not convinced at all the letters were cut and pasted. To my eyes, those misplaced periods and uneven spacing are result of JA simply not doing a perfect job.

((I'm sorry dear Travis)) but he had a terrible handwriting. Some words, sometimes many words in a row, he would write boldly, sometimes his words are written legible then turn illegible, back to legible again. Words on the forged letter look too legible (for Travis) and feminine. I'm even more convinced JA handwrote the letter.

I have not a clue why the letters were sent anonymously.
What you said about that was spot on. Simpler was so much better.

First I need to know why MM would help her out at all when he knew the letters were forged whether she gave to him pre-murder or she ordered him to forge himself post-ninjas. Unless he really believed her abuse and pedo lies..
I often think that he helped her burglarize grandpa's home in some way and that's how he became her menion or hostage.

I think MM probably did believe 's lies about TA being physically abusive. Remember her journal writing in fall 2007 (an especially whacked time for her, mostly relating to TA's relationship with Lisa)? When she says she has been in touch with MM & he thinks she should take psych meds/ be hospitalized, and leave Mesa?

For the sake of argument, if she forged them before being arrested and gave them to MM- for whatever reason- who is to say she told him they were forged? If SHE forged them after the fact, she may not have told him she had, and if she asked him to cut & paste to help her, I can easily imagine her telling MM that Nurmi or shrinks didn't believe her, and that she needed his help to avoid the DP.

Looks like you & I disagree about when she forged them (though I too reread Maran & now have some [different ] doubts) , but not at all on her intent to destroy him in every imaginable way.

You know I consider & reconsider & reconsider most everything. I may yet change my mind, but I came to my opinion only after a great many turns of the kaleidoscope, and a huge amount of researching every little aspect of the whole Letter Thing. Even going back over all of that again to explain my reasoning seems way too exhausting. Too much time spent underground in those rabbit holes.

About Brooke. I had a sense from TA's texting that asking gals what they had heard about him was pretty routine, and that sharing notes about prospects and asking for info on them was something many peeps in his singles ward did.

I do think that he might well have begun feeling paranoid about SM exchanges by mid-May...which I have the feeling was part of the 's goal of isolating him (and gaslighting him as well).

 

[pocketaccent]

I think MM probably did believe 's lies about TA being physically abusive. Remember her journal writing in fall 2007 (an especially whacked time for her, mostly relating to TA's relationship with Lisa)? When she says she has been in touch with MM & he thinks she should take psych meds/ be hospitalized, and leave Mesa?

For the sake of argument, if she forged them before being arrested and gave them to MM- for whatever reason- who is to say she told him they were forged? If SHE forged them after the fact, she may not have told him she had, and if she asked him to cut & paste to help her, I can easily imagine her telling MM that Nurmi or shrinks didn't believe her, and that she needed his help to avoid the DP.

Looks like you & I disagree about when she forged them (though I too reread Maran & now have some [different ] doubts) , but not at all on her intent to destroy him in every imaginable way.

You know I consider & reconsider & reconsider most everything. I may yet change my mind, but I came to my opinion only after a great many turns of the kaleidoscope, and a huge amount of researching every little aspect of the whole Letter Thing. Even going back over all of that again to explain my reasoning seems way too exhausting. Too much time spent underground in those rabbit holes.

About Brooke. I had a sense from TA's texting that asking gals what they had heard about him was pretty routine, and that sharing notes about prospects and asking for info on them was something many peeps in his singles ward did.

I do think that he might well have begun feeling paranoid about SM exchanges by mid-May...which I have the feeling was part of the 's goal of isolating him (and gaslighting him as well).

Not trying to persuade but just wanted to let you know about my thought process when I concluded the letters had to be pre-arrest. These can be interpreted in a million different ways, I know.

-DeMarte's testimony that she was a caretaker for little boy from Nov 2007 to Jan 2008. Gave her idea.
-JA's close relationship with Daniel Freeman. Spent a lot of times with his family during her stay at Mesa. Gave her idea.
-Text mentions of spidey underwear, braids, tootsie pops, school girl outfits, little red riding hood adventure.
-'I want to f you like a horny little school girl' text and more similar texts.
-Stolen T's journal
-Begged for sweet hand written note from TA.
-Her thirst for Helio. Sex tape.
-Actual naked picture of her with braids.
-Pure hatred for Travis.
-Communication problem. Jail calls recorded. Difficult to smuggle papers out.

Regarding your kaleidoscope, thank you a million for all your awesome work on this case. Absolutely admire your writing ability too. Some of your posts were so eloquently written and in style similar to Margaret Mitchell's writing, I once thought you should write a sequel to Gone With the Wind. The better one this time.

 

[RickshawFan]

My lengthy post self-destructed. Dang. Here's the gist.

I'm so glad we're all re-connecting over this topic. There was always something special about the way we shared our thoughts in this thread.

Also....From H4M's post above, it popped out that JA's fraud pedo letters must have involved extensive work with an eraser. This may be a clue about timing. She might not have been permitted erasers in jail. One clue was that she wasn't permitted them in the courtroom (do I have this right?). Instead, she had to use golf pencils, which don't have erasers.

If we had photocopies of her letters to the judge, we'd know right off the bat, since she'd very likely have had to cross at least one word out if she'd made a mistake and couldn't erase.

This would suggest that the pedo letters had to have been concocted before JA was arrested.

The other possible opportunity to use an eraser might have been while she was pro se. I'm thinking she might have had more supplies during that time.

But....were there any stray erasure signs on those letters? No one seems to have mentioned this. Concealing a cut and paste is easy. Trying to cover signs of erasing would be difficult.

 

[salberg7]

Appeal due today. I hope this will be denied by Christmas. I can’t see her winning an appeal on procedural errors.And I certainly hope her appeal isn’t written like her lawsuit re: Nurmi was although probably not as it will be written by her pro bono State appointed attorneys. They asked permission to exceed the 26000 word limit.
Ineffective counsel?
Prosecurial misconduct?
Out of control social media?
Bet she wishes she didn’t give all those interviews with all her lies now, as she revelled in the attention then...
And when this appeal is denied, will she be granted PCR from Judge Stevens?
I don’t think she will ever get out. She is a menace to society.

 

[Jewels53]

Jodi Arias wants appeal of murder conviction to be sealed

Now, Arias is seeking more secrecy: Her lawyers asked the Arizona Court of Appeals on Friday to bar the public from having access to the opening brief in her appeal.

“The contents of the opening brief may endanger some members of the public, given the continuing interest in this case by the public and the media,” her lawyers wrote, without explaining what the peril was and who would be affected by the public release of the brief.

https://nypost.com/2018/05/15/jodi-arias-wants-appeal-of-murder-conviction-to-be-sealed/

 

[Hope4More]

Jodi Arias wants appeal of murder conviction to be sealed

Now, Arias is seeking more secrecy: Her lawyers asked the Arizona Court of Appeals on Friday to bar the public from having access to the opening brief in her appeal.

“The contents of the opening brief may endanger some members of the public, given the continuing interest in this case by the public and the media,” her lawyers wrote, without explaining what the peril was and who would be affected by the public release of the brief.

https://nypost.com/2018/05/15/jodi-arias-wants-appeal-of-murder-conviction-to-be-sealed/

What a strange assertion by 's attorneys. Multiple COA clerks have told me that requests to seal opening briefs aren't unusual, and that they are typically granted.

Why go there? My guess is because it's part & parcel of what almost certainly is
their core argument - that the didn't a receive a fair trial because of extraordinary publicity, including negative publicity so intense that crucial defense witnesses were harassed & threatened, others wouldn't testify unless they were given psuedonyms, and others were too afraid to testify at all.

I'd also guess that some of those "intimidated " witnesses are the "members of the public" being referred to. JSS's rulings allowed them to try to tear down & lie about Travis in secrecy and with impunity, safe from being crossed by JM. 's attorneys will have to name names in their brief if they want to argue witness intimidation.

FWIW (I imagine very little), the State is supposedly objecting to the request to seal. I don't see any formal reflection of that objection on the COA docket (not yet, at least).

 

[Hope4More]

Not trying to persuade but just wanted to let you know about my thought process when I concluded the letters had to be pre-arrest. These can be interpreted in a million different ways, I know.

-DeMarte's testimony that she was a caretaker for little boy from Nov 2007 to Jan 2008. Gave her idea.
-JA's close relationship with Daniel Freeman. Spent a lot of times with his family during her stay at Mesa. Gave her idea.
-Text mentions of spidey underwear, braids, tootsie pops, school girl outfits, little red riding hood adventure.
-'I want to f you like a horny little school girl' text and more similar texts.
-Stolen T's journal
-Begged for sweet hand written note from TA.
-Her thirst for Helio. Sex tape.
-Actual naked picture of her with braids.
-Pure hatred for Travis.
-Communication problem. Jail calls recorded. Difficult to smuggle papers out.

Regarding your kaleidoscope, thank you a million for all your awesome work on this case. Absolutely admire your writing ability too. Some of your posts were so eloquently written and in style similar to Margaret Mitchell's writing, I once thought you should write a sequel to Gone With the Wind. The better one this time.

Thank you, sweet Pocket, definitely a party of the mutual admiration society that the many years here with so many really fine posters has created.

I have no objection, BTW, to even overt and explicit attempts to persuade me, lol, much less to insights & analysis being exchanged & discussed, that kind of discussion, even when agreement isn't reached, being just about my favorite hobby.

As to your list of what you found persuasive. IMO it's obvious from the texts that the , not TA, dreamt up & pushed the horny little school girl thing in all it's iterations, beginning in February, 2008, if IIRC.

I think TA was aiming at the (who he believed to be hacking in to read) when he brought up age & a 12 year old girl in the NA55 texts. I also am entirely convinced that the Little Red Riding Hood & the tree "fantasy" was 's, one for which she deliberately created a text record she believed would authenticate the related IM in May she claimed TA sent, that she in fact sent to herself.

And, not to be lurid, but that one terrible pic of her behind that I'll never be able to unsee strongly suggests that anal sex was a preference of hers, and one that obviously (ugh) long predated any interaction with TA.

The scenario I find most persuasive is that it never occurred to the , at the time, to interpret any of that as pedophilic. They were HER fantasies, after all.

Yes, the is vile enough to have ginned up the pedo lie beforehand, but really, who in TA's world - where he was known as a mega-flirt & even a skirt-chaser- could she possibly believe she could have convinced that TA was a pedophile?

The one person who leaps to mind who could be convinced, not least because convincing himself had the virtue of providing an illusion of moral cover, is Nurmi, legal advocate for pedophiles.

I believe she either sat in her cell, thinking about an alternative to ninjas, remembered the news of suicide, and realized that a portion of the evidence she had manufactured to use against TA in other ways could just as easily be used to paint him as a pedophile, or even liklier, that Nurmi inadvertently planted the idea after he read their texts & emails.

This is already too long, so will toss out 2 last quick observations & scram.

1. Consider when the not-stolen Helio was magically found and turned over to Nurmi.

2. Attaching the photo from JM's book of that letter the (in mid to late April, IIRC) the insisted TA write her.

Notice 2 things- how TA addressed the letter (Dear Jodi), and how he signed it- (Sincerely yours, Travis).

(Versus the forged letters addressed to "Jodi" and signed "TVA.")


This was the only letter TA ever sent her, and one she had demanded from him, for whatever reason. If she forged the 10 letters before her arrest, wouldn't she have paid close attention to and replicated exactly that kind of detail?

 

[gregjrichards]

“Jodi Arias wants part of an appeal over her conviction for murdering her boyfriend Travis Alexander in 2008 to be held in secret.

A sizeable portion of the sentencing retrial that sent Arias to prison for life in 2015 was shrouded in secrecy, with a white-noise machine turned to keep spectators from hearing legal arguments and the public sometimes barred from the courtroom.

Now, Arias is seeking more secrecy, with her lawyers asking the Arizona Court of Appeals on Friday to bar the public from having access to the opening brief in her appeal.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ling-boyfriend-held-secret.html#ixzz5FgpnkOyJ

 

[pocketaccent]

Thank you, sweet Pocket, definitely a party of the mutual admiration society that the many years here with so many really fine posters has created.

I have no objection, BTW, to even overt and explicit attempts to persuade me, lol, much less to insights & analysis being exchanged & discussed, that kind of discussion, even when agreement isn't reached, being just about my favorite hobby.

As to your list of what you found persuasive. IMO it's obvious from the texts that the , not TA, dreamt up & pushed the horny little school girl thing in all it's iterations, beginning in February, 2008, if IIRC.

hmmm...
Yes, those things came up starting Feb. If memory serves correctly, Spidey right after visiting Gus in Feb, Tootsie pop, braids and school girl after visiting Gus in March. Interesting I mention Gus twice already. Could have been their thing? (My memory could be faulty on time period)


I think TA was aiming at the (who he believed to be hacking in to read) when he brought up age & a 12 year old girl in the NA55 texts. I also am entirely convinced that the Little Red Riding Hood & the tree "fantasy" was 's, one for which she deliberately created a text record she believed would authenticate the related IM in May she claimed TA sent, that she in fact sent to herself.

Agree but question is why send them to herself. That is so bizarre. True she could have been producing evidence for some other purpose other than the Pedo one.


And, not to be lurid, but that one terrible pic of her behind that I'll never be able to unsee strongly suggests that anal sex was a preference of hers, and one that obviously (ugh) long predated any interaction with TA.

ugh!

The scenario I find most persuasive is that it never occurred to the , at the time, to interpret any of that as pedophilic. They were HER fantasies, after all.

Yes, the is vile enough to have ginned up the pedo lie beforehand, but really, who in TA's world - where he was known as a mega-flirt & even a skirt-chaser- could she possibly believe she could have convinced that TA was a pedophile?

Exactly why the pedo letter was necessary


The one person who leaps to mind who could be convinced, not least because convincing himself had the virtue of providing an illusion of moral cover, is Nurmi, legal advocate for pedophiles.

I believe she either sat in her cell, thinking about an alternative to ninjas, remembered the news of suicide, and realized that a portion of the evidence she had manufactured to use against TA in other ways could just as easily be used to paint him as a pedophile, or even liklier, that Nurmi inadvertently planted the idea after he read their texts & emails.

This is already too long, so will toss out 2 last quick observations & scram.

1. Consider when the not-stolen Helio was magically found and turned over to Nurmi.

2. Attaching the photo from JM's book of that letter the (in mid to late April, IIRC) the insisted TA write her.

Notice 2 things- how TA addressed the letter (Dear Jodi), and how he signed it- (Sincerely yours, Travis).

(Versus the forged letters addressed to "Jodi" and signed "TVA.")



This was the only letter TA ever sent her, and one she had demanded from him, for whatever reason. If she forged the 10 letters before her arrest, wouldn't she have paid close attention to and replicated exactly that kind of detail?

Travis signs off TVA in his journal. She was forging from the stolen journal is what I think.

Blue inks are written by me.

 

[pocketaccent]

It really doesn't matter when the letters were written. Really. For me though, the supposed pre-murder letters solved my questions on how could she have conquered the difficulty she faced orchestrating the project while sitting in jail.

 

[salberg7]

So....will the “legend in her own time” be permitted to seal her appeal? Because we all know what a danger it could be “to the public”. Give me a break.
I myself would love to read it.
Hope she burned enough bridges with the COA. After all, they denied her request to testify in secret. Why should she be allowed any more favors? JSS gave her everything she wanted during trial.
She is so delusional in more ways than one.
I hope they let the public have access after 2.5 million dollars of taxpayer funds paid for her trial. She already used her “Get out of Jail” free card. From here on out, the public should have privy to anything the killer files until she pays anything out of her own pocket.

 

[salberg7]

What a strange assertion by 's attorneys. Multiple COA clerks have told me that requests to seal opening briefs aren't unusual, and that they are typically granted.

Why go there? My guess is because it's part & parcel of what almost certainly is
their core argument - that the didn't a receive a fair trial because of extraordinary publicity, including negative publicity so intense that crucial defense witnesses were harassed & threatened, others wouldn't testify unless they were given psuedonyms, and others were too afraid to testify at all.

I'd also guess that some of those "intimidated " witnesses are the "members of the public" being referred to. JSS's rulings allowed them to try to tear down & lie about Travis in secrecy and with impunity, safe from being crossed by JM. 's attorneys will have to name names in their brief if they want to argue witness intimidation.

FWIW (I imagine very little), the State is supposedly objecting to the request to seal. I don't see any formal reflection of that objection on the COA docket (not yet, at least).

The guilt phase had none of that. Everyone testified except that woman Patty & her not being able to testify was due to the fact she took money from a tabloid, I believe.

It was the retrial that got weird when the killer was grasping for straws. Then the infamous Marc McGee showed up.

Gee, would the killer argue she was given too many concessions by JSS? That would be novel! (Being facetious here)

After all, Judge Sherry allowed her to proceed to clear out a courtroom so the killer could testify.

Which “members of the public” would be threatened? This appeal is for procedural errors only.

Eventually it will ALL be public whether she likes it or not.

Another try to manipulate whatever she can. And you know what? She will probably prevail as the rights of the convicted appear endless while the victim can be slaughtered over and over.

I expect this “brief” to be endless words directed by her via her attorneys. The killer loves words.

Again, we’ll have to see...

 

[salberg7]

So if I read correctly her brief submission was extended to
June 6. Geez Louise.

 

[Hope4More]

The guilt phase had none of that. Everyone testified except that woman Patty & her not being able to testify was due to the fact she took money from a tabloid, I believe.

It was the retrial that got weird when the killer was grasping for straws. Then the infamous Marc McGee showed up.

Gee, would the killer argue she was given too many concessions by JSS? That would be novel! (Being facetious here)

After all, Judge Sherry allowed her to proceed to clear out a courtroom so the killer could testify.

Which “members of the public” would be threatened? This appeal is for procedural errors only.

Eventually it will ALL be public whether she likes it or not.

Another try to manipulate whatever she can. And you know what? She will probably prevail as the rights of the convicted appear endless while the victim can be slaughtered over and over.

I expect this “brief” to be endless words directed by her via her attorneys. The killer loves words.

Again, we’ll have to see...

Based on the supplements to the court record 's attorneys requested and were granted, they are going to argue that Alyce LaViolette was subjected to witness intimidation. Nurmi argued during guilt phase sentencing that Patti didn't testify because she too was intimidated. JM refuted Nurmi's argument, but the fact that Nurmi put it on the record ensured that the allegation could be brought up on appeal.

It's up to the COA to determine the merits of arguments that the was denied a fair trial, for any reason, including pervasive publicity. They will do so by determining whether or not JSS either abused her discretion in making specific rulings, or if she misinterpreted relevant law. For the guilt phase, those rulings will include whether or not she erred in not granting Nurmi's motions for a change of venue; to sequester the jury; for jury voir dire; and any Nurmi motions or objections asserting prosecutorial misconduct by JM for how he handled/treated defense witnesses, including Patti and LaVa.

Yes, the entire appeal WILL be made public, at the time the COA rules. I doubt the State will prevail, but they did take the unusual step of formally opposing 's attorneys' request that opening briefs be sealed.

Interestingly, the COA expedited her attorneys' May 14th request for yet ANOTHER delay in filing a opening brief - they granted it (again!!) but they did NOT expedite their ruling on whether or not opening briefs will be sealed. On the docket, at least, that matter has yet to be decided.

 

[Hope4More]

It really doesn't matter when the letters were written. Really. For me though, the supposed pre-murder letters solved my questions on how could she have conquered the difficulty she faced orchestrating the project while sitting in jail.

I agree that ultimately it doesn't matter when she wrote the letters.

In one sense, NONE of all the very many specifics & details we've discussed and analyzed over the years matter. A too-long & nasty trial process revealed years ago that a really awful, malignant, hateful manipulated and tormented and slaughtered a flawed but remarkable & decent young man, then savaged him all over again during trial because she wasn't done hating him, and because she thought she could evade responsibility by smearing Travis so thoroughly that a jury would agree with her that she was justified in killing him.

Whether or not it mattered in any larger way, I still feel really gratified by the sleuthing & analyzing we all did for those several years post-trial, and especially post- release of texts and journals. All that poring over & dissection of "little" details cumulatively produced what IMO is the most thorough public exposure of the and her torment of Travis available anywhere. How satisfying.

From that perspective, I actually don't agree that when she wrote the letters -the 2 pedo letters, at least- is irrelevant. Coming up with that lie as a defense "strategy" after her first 2 lie-stories failed is one level of evil. Manufacturing that lie pre-murder in the hope of destroying Travis, if true, IMO would make her even more twisted than we already knew her to be.

Whether it matters in any way or in any sense of the word, I'm all in for exposing her on this yet one more twisted & vile act. If true. So far, I'm not convinced the letters were forged beforehand, but your conviction they were, and your reasons for doubting they were not, have made me rethink my certainty about their timing, and have led to questions, at least, I hadn't thought to think through before.

(Including:

1. Were the magazines JM intercepted the first mags she'd tried to smuggle out of jail? Or could she have used that method to gradually relay the content of letters she wanted MM to assemble?

2. If she was being so closely monitored she had to smuggle out coded magazines to communicate with MM, how was she able to explain to Donovan and/or MM what she was doing with the magazines, and how to read the code?

3. For MM (or anyone else) to cut or paste the letters together at the 's direction, using TA's journals or other original sources, the would have had to give him the journals/sources. She couldn't have done so herself AFTER she was arrested.

4. LE didn't find TA's journals when they searched her parents and grandparents' houses. It is theoretically possible she'd hidden them. If so, would Auntie Sue (or her mother) have been willing to fetch them and send them to MM? Seems crazy, except...Auntie Sue was willing to magically find the "stolen" phone, years later, in a car used daily. And mom was willing to try to shop the forged letters to National Enquirer, soon after trial began.

5. If the gave MM TA's journals before she was arrested, why would she have done that?

6. If the didn't give MM the journals beforehand, and if a family member didn't send MM the journals after she was arrested, then the letters were not cut and pasted from original sources (Maran was wrong).

If the letters weren't cut and pasted from original sources, that leaves, in terms of HOW the letters were manufactured, just two possibilities: the forged each of them as complete letters on pieces of paper that somehow were never creased, OR, she forged the letters in pieces and those pieces were cut and pasted into individual letters.

Like that, the questions.

 

[Hope4More]

Sorry- last questions, then I'll stop.

1. How did the come in possession of the index cards she had in her cell? They were contraband, forbidden. If someone gave them to her, was it a visitor who smuggled them in? Would that person, then, be equally willing & able to smuggle out index cards on which she'd forged TA's handwriting?

2. JM included in his book what she'd forged in TA's handwriting on one of the index cards confiscated from her cell (it was from TA to the , saying he'd followed her/spied on her out with a guy, that he'd be watching, and would know if she didn't return to her home that she was a *advertiser censored*).

- All 10 forged letters had already been provided to Nurmi via "Bob White." Why was she still making forgeries? Did she intend to have additional forgeries smuggled out? To whom? To produce more "evidence" against Travis? How would that evidence come to be magically discovered? And by whom?

 

[pocketaccent]

Sorry- last questions, then I'll stop.

1. How did the come in possession of the index cards she had in her cell? They were contraband, forbidden. If someone gave them to her, was it a visitor who smuggled them in? Would that person, then, be equally willing & able to smuggle out index cards on which she'd forged TA's handwriting?

2. JM included in his book what she'd forged in TA's handwriting on one of the index cards confiscated from her cell (it was from TA to the , saying he'd followed her/spied on her out with a guy, that he'd be watching, and would know if she didn't return to her home that she was a *advertiser censored*).

- All 10 forged letters had already been provided to Nurmi via "Bob White." Why was she still making forgeries? Did she intend to have additional forgeries smuggled out? To whom? To produce more "evidence" against Travis? How would that evidence come to be magically discovered? And by whom?

Aaaah... you carefully and lovingly pulled out your kaleidoscope from your drawer and said Hello friend, How are ya.

Yes, can't agree more she is even more vile and twisted if the letters were pre-murder. Last night I felt sad thinking about Travis who was killed almost 10 years ago. I even scolded him (I'm old enough to scold him) for not recognizing the danger in her and for not taking proper action against her.

I'm so happy you are rethinking. Some of your questions are asked as if you entered right inside my head and typed out my exact questions and thoughts.

Going out with cousin to help him choose a right piano. Be back.

 

[pocketaccent]

I agree that ultimately it doesn't matter when she wrote the letters.

In one sense, NONE of all the very many specifics & details we've discussed and analyzed over the years matter. A too-long & nasty trial process revealed years ago that a really awful, malignant, hateful manipulated and tormented and slaughtered a flawed but remarkable & decent young man, then savaged him all over again during trial because she wasn't done hating him, and because she thought she could evade responsibility by smearing Travis so thoroughly that a jury would agree with her that she was justified in killing him.

Whether or not it mattered in any larger way, I still feel really gratified by the sleuthing & analyzing we all did for those several years post-trial, and especially post- release of texts and journals. All that poring over & dissection of "little" details cumulatively produced what IMO is the most thorough public exposure of the and her torment of Travis available anywhere. How satisfying.

From that perspective, I actually don't agree that when she wrote the letters -the 2 pedo letters, at least- is irrelevant. Coming up with that lie as a defense "strategy" after her first 2 lie-stories failed is one level of evil. Manufacturing that lie pre-murder in the hope of destroying Travis, if true, IMO would make her even more twisted than we already knew her to be.

Whether it matters in any way or in any sense of the word, I'm all in for exposing her on this yet one more twisted & vile act. If true. So far, I'm not convinced the letters were forged beforehand, but your conviction they were, and your reasons for doubting they were not, have made me rethink my certainty about their timing, and have led to questions, at least, I hadn't thought to think through before.

(Including:

1. Were the magazines JM intercepted the first mags she'd tried to smuggle out of jail? Or could she have used that method to gradually relay the content of letters she wanted MM to assemble?

2. If she was being so closely monitored she had to smuggle out coded magazines to communicate with MM, how was she able to explain to Donovan and/or MM what she was doing with the magazines, and how to read the code?

1 and 2 - Many magazines and many hidden messages had to be relayed to MM in order to accomplish the task. Phone calls between them would be listened in. MM lived in California, Donovan and Ann Campbell lived wherever. The logistics required to have someone like MM forge the letters would be really difficult. And risky. How trustworthy Donovan and AC were to the ? I've no idea.


3. For MM (or anyone else) to cut or paste the letters together at the 's direction, using TA's journals or other original sources, the would have had to give him the journals/sources. She couldn't have done so herself AFTER she was arrested.

So true


4. LE didn't find TA's journals when they searched her parents and grandparents' houses. It is theoretically possible she'd hidden them. If so, would Auntie Sue (or her mother) have been willing to fetch them and send them to MM? Seems crazy, except...Auntie Sue was willing to magically find the "stolen" phone, years later, in a car used daily. And mom was willing to try to shop the forged letters to National Enquirer, soon after trial began.

Do we know how soon after the arrest Mom contacted National Enquirer? Has to be after April 2010, right? The aunt Sue and Helio deal also required communication from the to MM or whomever too. I suspected MM (I added Gus recently) had the 'not stolen phone' in his possession.


5. If the gave MM TA's journals before she was arrested, why would she have done that?

She wouldn't have. The letters have to be written already is my theory.


6. If the didn't give MM the journals beforehand, and if a family member didn't send MM the journals after she was arrested, then the letters were not cut and pasted from original sources (Maran was wrong).

If the letters weren't cut and pasted from original sources, that leaves, in terms of HOW the letters were manufactured, just two possibilities: the forged each of them as complete letters on pieces of paper that somehow were never creased, OR, she forged the letters in pieces and those pieces were cut and pasted into individual letters.

I thought about those two possibilities heavily too. I thought then who could have helped her smuggle out the letters uncreased. This person had to be someone who can sit with her in person, without being listened in, without glass partition between them, who can be unsuspected when papers are exchanged or given in an envelope, or whatever. I really feel uncomfortable accusing anyone so I won't but ...

So my third possibility was born. She wrote them already pre-murder. Then I thought about Jan-June timeline, mainly focused on April and May. Sure enough, things began to fall into place in my mind. Her crazy, bizarre, menacing actions began to make sense. She completely and utterly wanted to destroy Travis. After May 26, destroying him wasn't enough. Travis had to die before he could expose her. Still beat you Brat.



Like that, the questions.

Sorry- last questions, then I'll stop.

1. How did the come in possession of the index cards she had in her cell? They were contraband, forbidden. If someone gave them to her, was it a visitor who smuggled them in? Would that person, then, be equally willing & able to smuggle out index cards on which she'd forged TA's handwriting?

2. JM included in his book what she'd forged in TA's handwriting on one of the index cards confiscated from her cell (it was from TA to the , saying he'd followed her/spied on her out with a guy, that he'd be watching, and would know if she didn't return to her home that she was a *advertiser censored*).

Wow, I don't remember that part. Just wow!!!

- All 10 forged letters had already been provided to Nurmi via "Bob White." Why was she still making forgeries? Did she intend to have additional forgeries smuggled out? To whom? To produce more "evidence" against Travis? How would that evidence come to be magically discovered? And by whom?

My response in blue ink.

 

[Hope4More]

A quote from JM's book (he's discussing his thoughts after he listened to the first call Arias made from CA to Flores, unsolicited, post-murder):

"At the time it was easy to see this characterization of Travis being physically imposing as just an additional detail in the growing portrait of him. But in the months and years ahead, I often found myself returning to this initial call and thinking that even back then she was attempting to portray herself as a victim by claiming that Travis had a bad temper as shown by the mean electronic correspondence he had sent her. It didn't matter that she hadn't been implicated; she was already laying the groundwork for her ultimate defense in her first conversation with police. As I would soon learn, Arias always seemed to be thinking several steps beyond her current story."