If I recall, in the Hughes' book, they thought that Travis had gone to his Bishop before the killed him. Their youngest child had a Temple (naming?) ceremony, and Travis stayed outside for it. I don't remember the date tho. But if he did, it makes it even harder to figure out what she threatened him with.
Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #8
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If I recall, in the Hughes' book, they thought that Travis had gone to his Bishop before the killed him. Their youngest child had a Temple (naming?) ceremony, and Travis stayed outside for it. I don't remember the date tho. But if he did, it makes it even harder to figure out what she threatened him with.
Off topic for a minute...does anyone else have issues with getting all of their alerts? I've noticed on mine that I'll be alerted that one or two people have posted but,when I look through the thread,waaay more than that have posted.
salberg7
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About getting access to docs....
I'm pretty sure the COA will keep sealed the docs that were sealed during trial, at least until the time they deny the 's appeal. It's not impossible that sealed docs will stay sealed through the AZ Supreme Court declining to hear her appeal, assuming she tries that route.
I don't believe the seals will stay in place for her PCR.
But, even when the sealed is unsealed, and even when the entire trial record is available to the public, there is the not small matter of how those if us who don't live close to Phoenix AZ will actually get our hands on the docs.
I doubt BK will make the effort, and who else out there will make the investment in time & dollars to dig through the record & copy what is of most interest?
(hmm.)
Someone wanting to write a comprehensive book on Travis’ murder would want some of not all.
We’ll see it but not for a decade or two.
But an author could pick and choose what documents he/she needed.
Travis lost his Temple Recommend in January, 2008. All I know about Mormonism I learned during this trial, so I'm not especially well informed about what exactly Travis had to do to regain his Recommend. From the Bishop's testimony at trial, it sounded like it was at the discretion of T's bishop to determine whether or not Travis had repented sufficiently/fully enough to be Temple worthy again.
From the texts, it appears Travis was still waiting for his Bishop's approval before committing to attend the ceremony for the Hughes' baby.
I think Travis actually might have felt very threatened by the going to her bishop. He was already out of time before being kicked out of the singles ward, and sorry to say, it doesn't appear that he had remained chaste during his repentence process (whether or not he confessed each indiscretion to his bishop can't be known, and seriously, shouldn't be known).
But, as I wrote a short while ago, my guess is that when Travis calmed down a bit after the twisted, warped, malignant, hateful, thief-of-souls told him she felt an urgent need to unburden herself to her bishop, he knew the odds of her doing that were slim to none.
As I understand the May 26 chat, Travis had come to realize everything she claimed to be was a lie, including her constant grandious & farcical claims that she was a "spiritual seeker," trying her utmost to be a devout and true Mormon.
Travis to : "your words saying you loved me are lies, your actions are truth, and your actions are evidence that you hate me and have tried to ruin me."
My best guess is that Travis didn't believe she would go to "her" bishop, but had just enough concern she might to explain why he responded at all to her handful of attempts to reach him between May 30 and June 2.
pocketaccent
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If anyone is interested, here's an interesting thread (new).
Mystery Surrounds Malibu Creek State Park Shooting Death Of Tristan Beaudette, 35
Grabbed my attention because I live close enough to the area. We go near there for fish and chips often.
Mystery Surrounds Malibu Creek State Park Shooting Death Of Tristan Beaudette, 35
Grabbed my attention because I live close enough to the area. We go near there for fish and chips often.
pocketaccent
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My wishlist :(hmm.
-Melendez and Dworkin's complete report on Travis's laptop history/activity on June 3rd - 4th.
-Any or all text records on both Helios, for May and June.
-Emails between Travis and during May-June.
-10 pedo letters (is there any chance the letters will be available to us?)
Thanks for the clarification. I went back and watched the Bishops testimony.
RickshawFan
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She didn’t write this stuff after the murder?
RickshawFan
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It's possible he didn't have a large vocabulary of nasty things to say? And he might have had evidence that she was getting paid for sex? She WAS kinda making Travis pay for sex?((does this mean you have waded into the weeds??
The redundancy does seem odd. But maybe this context helps? On May 25-26, at various times (and sometimes simultaneously) Travis and the were communicating by phone, texting, exchanging GMail IM's, sending emails, and though we didn't see the evidence, apparently also leaving messages both on Facebook and on MySpace.
And, at times Travis was very, very, very, angry. Maybe it is no wonder he lost track of having said the same thing? He repeats himself A LOT within the chat, after all).
RickshawFan
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I'm thinking the journal entries might have served the dual purpose of trying to convince . She was so delusional, either for real or artificially, that writing about what she wished were true somehow made it so.
She must have drafted those words over and over. That will have seared them into her brain so as to eclipse any other "reality".
RickshawFan
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Does the order of these posts get mixed up for anyone else? Here we are reading about the messed up order of and TA chats, and the board keeps juggling things around.
Cinnalauda
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Just jumping in after finally catching up to say hello all and thank you to Hope for all the updates and her endless work on the texts / chats. It's nice to come back to a busy thread and see some rigorous debate going on! I was really disturbed to see the logging entries in her journal related to how Travis owes her by bringing her into the Church and his apparent responsibilities to her. Just chilling.
@Rickshaw - I'm not having any issues thankfully, I'm using the latest Firefox..I don't know if that helps?
@Rickshaw - I'm not having any issues thankfully, I'm using the latest Firefox..I don't know if that helps?
I'll be posting just 2 more things I've hauled away from BK's site: the January 2007 email exchange between Travis and the Hughes, and after that, the handful of Travis- texts in June 2008.
First up-the emails.
First up-the emails.
Here is the first email in the infamous email exchange between Travis and the Hughes that was taken so grotesquely out of context at trial.
I’m posting it (and a condensed version of the other emails on the exchange) largely with the May 26 chat and possible aftermath in mind.
This email exchange provides an example of how Travis responded to being hurt by his “best friends,” and how and why he went about forgiving them.
A refresher on the timing of these emails: Travis (AND THE HUGHES, FOR THAT MATTER!!) had met the only a few months beforehand; she had already invited herself to his house in Mesa (after being told not to come) and had slept under his Christmas tree; she had already told Sky that she’d had a holy vision and knew she would marry Travis, and she’d already had that date with Abe and had ended it by making out with him for 15 minutes near her car, and by telling him when his hands were down her pants that there was magic to be found there.
More to the point for the , perhaps: she had maxed out her credit cards and borrowed large amounts of money from multiple folks, including family members; had stopped making mortgage payments on the Palm Springs house months earlier and knew it would be foreclosed upon; had not told Darryl Brewer she wanted to end their relationship, and she knew Darryl hadn’t intended his move away from Palm Springs to be closer to his son as an end to his relationship with her.
The had already invested a great deal of time, money, and effort in researching PPL and Mormonism, then setting about hunting for prey at PPL events, culminating with her pursuit of Travis at the PPL convention in OKC (and beyond) in fall of 2006.
By late January 2007, when these emails were written, the was in desperate shape financially, and running out of time to plausibly fall back on Plan B --Darryl Brewer—if she couldn’t get Travis to commit to her.
So…….the made a surprise visit to Sky and Chris Hughes house, stayed for 3 days, and set about manipulating them as a means of manipulating Travis into making that commitment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monday, January 29, 2007, 2:27PM
Email, Travis to Chris & Sky: “you’ve crossed the line” (paraphrased, with quotes)
“I just got off the phone with a very reluctant to talk to me JA. “ She was so reluctant she didn’t even want me to talk with you, because she was afraid if you found out she had that you wouldn’t respect her.
She told me that you had told her not to call or email me ever again, to delete me from her MySpace, and to act as if I don’t exist. She also told me that she just spent the last 3 days with you, and that the entire time was a discourse on how I was a jerk, abusive to women, and that she is blind to the kind of person I am.
I didn’t pry too much to find out what else you said because it was obvious how uncomfortable she was in talking to me about it, because of how afraid she is about upsetting you, especially since you told her that you would lose all respect for her if she kept associating with me. She also told me that you continually called her Deanna over those 3 days.
“To sum up, you spent the last 3 days beating it into her head that I am a broken person that is F’ed up in the head who needs counseling, that I am extremely abusive to women, and the fact that she is interested in me means she has her own head problems and needs counselling too. “
What I find ironic is that I assume your whole basis for doing this is to keep me from hurting her. “What I also find ironic is that JA and I have never had an argument. Not one. We have always got along and enjoyed each other’s company. Have I ever been rude to her? Well, I’m sure I have, because I am rough around the edges and have told a joke that isn’t funny but seemed funny at the time. I have never said anything to her in anger, and if you asked her I bet she could easily count on one hand with fingers to spare how many times I have offended her.”
Now if that makes me the devil, I would ask you the same question Sky asked JA. Has he ever even once been a jerk to you. JA's answer was yes. Now if your answer is no, congrats, you’re a better person than me and everyone else for that matter. I think that is a very manipulative question to ask, and to use as a basis to conclude that I am a jerk. In fact, the whole 3-day experience sounds like a grand brain washing.
What I really don’t get is if you are so concerned about her feelings, did you ever consider what it does to her feelings to be called Deanna so many times, to be told your feelings for her are contingent upon her disowning one of her best friends and the person who introduced her into the church, and telling her she is blind and needs counselling?
“I have never once heard JA cry, not once, until I spoke to her a few minutes ago and all I heard were tears and fear. Next time you want to throw me under the bus, and there is no denying that that happened quite a bit (over those 3 days), remember the advice of the Secret, to not focus on an anti-Travis campaign , but more of a pro-someone else campaign. It would save my feelings and JAs a great deal of hurt. That may have been the Doctor Laura approach, but it is not the Jesus Christ approach.”
“Which bring me to my next thought, my feelings. If you really think I am so horrible to women, why would you want to associate with me and consider me a friend? If I am a bad person to women, I am simply a bad person. Feeling like you can be my friend and then telling JA to drop me like a dirty diaper is not consistent. If I am not good enough to be her friend, why am I good enough to be yours?”
“You have always been the epitome of kindness to me, and excellent friends, in fact unconditional friends, which is why this is so confusing to me.”
“I guess what I am getting at is I am very hurt by the comments you said about me. I think they were unfair, dramatically exaggerated, and most importantly, not yours to say. I realize everything said was with a righteous motive, but it was over zealous and inappropriate. I feel you shot beyond the mark.”
Now in most cases I would for ask for more clarity, “but I think we can all agree that they don’t get any more honest than the .” Whether or not you meant what you said to be heard the way it was doesn’t matter; what I’ve written is a very mild version of how it did come off. In my opinion you overstepped your bounds and caused way more problems than you solved. I know you were trying to help but you went overboard.
Which brings me to my next thought. Regardless of what you think, I am not mean to . “I adore . In fact, it has never been easier to be nice to someone as it is with her. Has a little of the imperfect Travis come out around her? The answer is yes, but the key word is little,” and by no fair standard can it be considered as mean to . “So much so that I can’t believe I have to defend myself on the matter.”
My next thought is about what you said about her waiting around forever. “Hence the name of Deanna being used in vain”. Let me point out I have known her for four months. I went from intrigued to interested to caring her about her deeply to realizing how lucky I would be to have her be part of my life forever. This all happened in 4 months. I would say that is pretty normal. “ I wouldn’t say our courtship has been about her waiting around forever and wasting her life. Let me reemphasize, 4 months ago we didn’t know the other existed.”
“I am scrambling and worrying and am receiving extreme outside pressure from so many sources to fix myself that I am about to have a nervous breakdown.”
I realize I will lose, or more accurately, have already lost a great person in JA. “I realize how amazing she is. I am aware of my fear of commitment.”
I think though that I have made measurable progress in a reasonable amount of time, at least as far as my relationship with her goes. “Does that mean I expect her to wait around 4 more months or 4 more years or until I figure things out? No. My selfish side wants her to, but I know it’s not fair, and believe it or not, I do care enough to out others, including a girl, above my own selfish desires.”
My point is this. I’m trying, it hasn’t been a long time, and it certainly hasn’t been a long enough time that you should justified to intervene and to tell her never to speak to me again.
“It makes me wonder who it is you think I should marry. We have had so many conversations about my needing to marry, but then you tell JA I am mean, abusive, and a jerk. I suppose you told her that because you like her and care for her.
Who should I marry then? Someone not as good as her. Someone you don’t like and who doesn’t have the potential for you to care about, someone who sucks so bad she deserves to be abused and to wait around indefinitely? If I am as bad as you depicted, then I shouldn’t be marrying anyone.”
“So my question to you is, am I that bad a person, or just not good enough for the likes of JA? “
“What you have accomplished is irreparable damage to my relationship with her. She is paranoid that this evil person you have depicted will someday surface. No matter what I say or do, she will always have that image of me lurking in the back of her mind. “
“She told me, “I haven’t seen any of what they said about you, but they know you well enough to know that is who you really are. Why would they say it if it wasn’t true?”
So I am atoning for sins I have not committed. She respects your opinion enough that you have done as much damage to our relationship as I would have done if I backhanded her across the face myself. Three days ago she thought I was a great guy.
Tonight she said I was “someone with major character flaws, “ and that she just hadn’t experienced the severity of them yet.
How do you think that made me feel about my good friends Sky and Chris Hughes? Guys, I’m sorry, but I’m trying desperately to overcome my problems so I don’t lose something great like I’ve done before. You are kicking me while I’m down and ruining any chance that I had.
“It’s one thing if she decides I am not the one based on who I am or what I’ve done, but this is ridiculous. Your remarks have become part of the problem and not the solution. How with such an endorsement am I ever supposed to get married? “
Before I forget, why on earth would you tell her to date a non-member who has already told her to throw the church aside to have a relationship? (he’s referring to JOHN DIXON) “That has to be the most ridiculous thing of all. Am I so bad a borderline Mormon is better? “
Against my own desires I have told her to go date other good church members so she can at least see a contrast from me, but non-members? I just don’t get it.
Guys, I hope I’m making an a-s-s out of myself and am missing something that would make everything you said appropriate, but I’m just not seeing it. What is certain is that you’ve done your share of hurting JA. She loves you and respects you, but on the other hand she is not interested in having another Travis Alexander roast ever again.
“I would like to think I have enough redeeming qualities that you wouldn’t need to spend 3 days inflating my imperfections. The only thing I ask is that you both take the time to apologize to her and to make her feel comfortable so that this incident won’t cause any weird moments between you and her. She is terrified of losing your friendship or even diminishing it in any way. She loves you as much as you love her, probably even more.”
“As for me, you probably don’t think you owe me an apology so I won’t ask for one. If you do feel inclined to reply on all this, I would ask that you reply to every part of this email so nothing is left unresolved. Your friendship is also very important to me. I love you both so much. Which is probably why your poor opinion of me hurt me.”
I can usually give a c-rap. I’m fully aware that some people don’t like me, but I don’t care what most people think. I do however care what the two of you think. I know you only had good intentions, but that’s not what occurred. You will have to forgive my sternness. I am just very upset.
I don’t know who said what, I just know it shouldn’t have been said. “My name is apparently not safe in your home. I know you are aware of my problems, but I didn’t think they were so big as to cause you to be so violently opposed to me. I realize how you meant things was way different than how they were perceived. I know you are loving people who just want the best for JA and I. “
“I think sometimes we just get carried away and desensitized when something has been the subject of conversation for so long. I know being chided by the likes of me probably isn’t easy to take because I am usually the one being chided, but I ask you to respect what is written, not the writer.”
JA has so much respect and admiration for your entire family, she even wants to format her own family after yours. She thinks you are going to think she is stupid, whether you say it aloud or not, and that things will never be the same.
“My only request is that you please do your best to make her feel comfortable around you. I don’t even ask for an apology, just don’t send me a rebuttal putting me in to my place because I already know my faults clearly, and honestly, it would only upset me.”
Travis
“PS. After I wrote this I slept on it, reread it, edited it, and described what I felt when I wasn’t angry. So please take it in the spirit it was sent. I love you both very much. “
I’m posting it (and a condensed version of the other emails on the exchange) largely with the May 26 chat and possible aftermath in mind.
This email exchange provides an example of how Travis responded to being hurt by his “best friends,” and how and why he went about forgiving them.
A refresher on the timing of these emails: Travis (AND THE HUGHES, FOR THAT MATTER!!) had met the only a few months beforehand; she had already invited herself to his house in Mesa (after being told not to come) and had slept under his Christmas tree; she had already told Sky that she’d had a holy vision and knew she would marry Travis, and she’d already had that date with Abe and had ended it by making out with him for 15 minutes near her car, and by telling him when his hands were down her pants that there was magic to be found there.
More to the point for the , perhaps: she had maxed out her credit cards and borrowed large amounts of money from multiple folks, including family members; had stopped making mortgage payments on the Palm Springs house months earlier and knew it would be foreclosed upon; had not told Darryl Brewer she wanted to end their relationship, and she knew Darryl hadn’t intended his move away from Palm Springs to be closer to his son as an end to his relationship with her.
The had already invested a great deal of time, money, and effort in researching PPL and Mormonism, then setting about hunting for prey at PPL events, culminating with her pursuit of Travis at the PPL convention in OKC (and beyond) in fall of 2006.
By late January 2007, when these emails were written, the was in desperate shape financially, and running out of time to plausibly fall back on Plan B --Darryl Brewer—if she couldn’t get Travis to commit to her.
So…….the made a surprise visit to Sky and Chris Hughes house, stayed for 3 days, and set about manipulating them as a means of manipulating Travis into making that commitment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monday, January 29, 2007, 2:27PM
Email, Travis to Chris & Sky: “you’ve crossed the line” (paraphrased, with quotes)
“I just got off the phone with a very reluctant to talk to me JA. “ She was so reluctant she didn’t even want me to talk with you, because she was afraid if you found out she had that you wouldn’t respect her.
She told me that you had told her not to call or email me ever again, to delete me from her MySpace, and to act as if I don’t exist. She also told me that she just spent the last 3 days with you, and that the entire time was a discourse on how I was a jerk, abusive to women, and that she is blind to the kind of person I am.
I didn’t pry too much to find out what else you said because it was obvious how uncomfortable she was in talking to me about it, because of how afraid she is about upsetting you, especially since you told her that you would lose all respect for her if she kept associating with me. She also told me that you continually called her Deanna over those 3 days.
“To sum up, you spent the last 3 days beating it into her head that I am a broken person that is F’ed up in the head who needs counseling, that I am extremely abusive to women, and the fact that she is interested in me means she has her own head problems and needs counselling too. “
What I find ironic is that I assume your whole basis for doing this is to keep me from hurting her. “What I also find ironic is that JA and I have never had an argument. Not one. We have always got along and enjoyed each other’s company. Have I ever been rude to her? Well, I’m sure I have, because I am rough around the edges and have told a joke that isn’t funny but seemed funny at the time. I have never said anything to her in anger, and if you asked her I bet she could easily count on one hand with fingers to spare how many times I have offended her.”
Now if that makes me the devil, I would ask you the same question Sky asked JA. Has he ever even once been a jerk to you. JA's answer was yes. Now if your answer is no, congrats, you’re a better person than me and everyone else for that matter. I think that is a very manipulative question to ask, and to use as a basis to conclude that I am a jerk. In fact, the whole 3-day experience sounds like a grand brain washing.
What I really don’t get is if you are so concerned about her feelings, did you ever consider what it does to her feelings to be called Deanna so many times, to be told your feelings for her are contingent upon her disowning one of her best friends and the person who introduced her into the church, and telling her she is blind and needs counselling?
“I have never once heard JA cry, not once, until I spoke to her a few minutes ago and all I heard were tears and fear. Next time you want to throw me under the bus, and there is no denying that that happened quite a bit (over those 3 days), remember the advice of the Secret, to not focus on an anti-Travis campaign , but more of a pro-someone else campaign. It would save my feelings and JAs a great deal of hurt. That may have been the Doctor Laura approach, but it is not the Jesus Christ approach.”
“Which bring me to my next thought, my feelings. If you really think I am so horrible to women, why would you want to associate with me and consider me a friend? If I am a bad person to women, I am simply a bad person. Feeling like you can be my friend and then telling JA to drop me like a dirty diaper is not consistent. If I am not good enough to be her friend, why am I good enough to be yours?”
“You have always been the epitome of kindness to me, and excellent friends, in fact unconditional friends, which is why this is so confusing to me.”
“I guess what I am getting at is I am very hurt by the comments you said about me. I think they were unfair, dramatically exaggerated, and most importantly, not yours to say. I realize everything said was with a righteous motive, but it was over zealous and inappropriate. I feel you shot beyond the mark.”
Now in most cases I would for ask for more clarity, “but I think we can all agree that they don’t get any more honest than the .” Whether or not you meant what you said to be heard the way it was doesn’t matter; what I’ve written is a very mild version of how it did come off. In my opinion you overstepped your bounds and caused way more problems than you solved. I know you were trying to help but you went overboard.
Which brings me to my next thought. Regardless of what you think, I am not mean to . “I adore . In fact, it has never been easier to be nice to someone as it is with her. Has a little of the imperfect Travis come out around her? The answer is yes, but the key word is little,” and by no fair standard can it be considered as mean to . “So much so that I can’t believe I have to defend myself on the matter.”
My next thought is about what you said about her waiting around forever. “Hence the name of Deanna being used in vain”. Let me point out I have known her for four months. I went from intrigued to interested to caring her about her deeply to realizing how lucky I would be to have her be part of my life forever. This all happened in 4 months. I would say that is pretty normal. “ I wouldn’t say our courtship has been about her waiting around forever and wasting her life. Let me reemphasize, 4 months ago we didn’t know the other existed.”
“I am scrambling and worrying and am receiving extreme outside pressure from so many sources to fix myself that I am about to have a nervous breakdown.”
I realize I will lose, or more accurately, have already lost a great person in JA. “I realize how amazing she is. I am aware of my fear of commitment.”
I think though that I have made measurable progress in a reasonable amount of time, at least as far as my relationship with her goes. “Does that mean I expect her to wait around 4 more months or 4 more years or until I figure things out? No. My selfish side wants her to, but I know it’s not fair, and believe it or not, I do care enough to out others, including a girl, above my own selfish desires.”
My point is this. I’m trying, it hasn’t been a long time, and it certainly hasn’t been a long enough time that you should justified to intervene and to tell her never to speak to me again.
“It makes me wonder who it is you think I should marry. We have had so many conversations about my needing to marry, but then you tell JA I am mean, abusive, and a jerk. I suppose you told her that because you like her and care for her.
Who should I marry then? Someone not as good as her. Someone you don’t like and who doesn’t have the potential for you to care about, someone who sucks so bad she deserves to be abused and to wait around indefinitely? If I am as bad as you depicted, then I shouldn’t be marrying anyone.”
“So my question to you is, am I that bad a person, or just not good enough for the likes of JA? “
“What you have accomplished is irreparable damage to my relationship with her. She is paranoid that this evil person you have depicted will someday surface. No matter what I say or do, she will always have that image of me lurking in the back of her mind. “
“She told me, “I haven’t seen any of what they said about you, but they know you well enough to know that is who you really are. Why would they say it if it wasn’t true?”
So I am atoning for sins I have not committed. She respects your opinion enough that you have done as much damage to our relationship as I would have done if I backhanded her across the face myself. Three days ago she thought I was a great guy.
Tonight she said I was “someone with major character flaws, “ and that she just hadn’t experienced the severity of them yet.
How do you think that made me feel about my good friends Sky and Chris Hughes? Guys, I’m sorry, but I’m trying desperately to overcome my problems so I don’t lose something great like I’ve done before. You are kicking me while I’m down and ruining any chance that I had.
“It’s one thing if she decides I am not the one based on who I am or what I’ve done, but this is ridiculous. Your remarks have become part of the problem and not the solution. How with such an endorsement am I ever supposed to get married? “
Before I forget, why on earth would you tell her to date a non-member who has already told her to throw the church aside to have a relationship? (he’s referring to JOHN DIXON) “That has to be the most ridiculous thing of all. Am I so bad a borderline Mormon is better? “
Against my own desires I have told her to go date other good church members so she can at least see a contrast from me, but non-members? I just don’t get it.
Guys, I hope I’m making an a-s-s out of myself and am missing something that would make everything you said appropriate, but I’m just not seeing it. What is certain is that you’ve done your share of hurting JA. She loves you and respects you, but on the other hand she is not interested in having another Travis Alexander roast ever again.
“I would like to think I have enough redeeming qualities that you wouldn’t need to spend 3 days inflating my imperfections. The only thing I ask is that you both take the time to apologize to her and to make her feel comfortable so that this incident won’t cause any weird moments between you and her. She is terrified of losing your friendship or even diminishing it in any way. She loves you as much as you love her, probably even more.”
“As for me, you probably don’t think you owe me an apology so I won’t ask for one. If you do feel inclined to reply on all this, I would ask that you reply to every part of this email so nothing is left unresolved. Your friendship is also very important to me. I love you both so much. Which is probably why your poor opinion of me hurt me.”
I can usually give a c-rap. I’m fully aware that some people don’t like me, but I don’t care what most people think. I do however care what the two of you think. I know you only had good intentions, but that’s not what occurred. You will have to forgive my sternness. I am just very upset.
I don’t know who said what, I just know it shouldn’t have been said. “My name is apparently not safe in your home. I know you are aware of my problems, but I didn’t think they were so big as to cause you to be so violently opposed to me. I realize how you meant things was way different than how they were perceived. I know you are loving people who just want the best for JA and I. “
“I think sometimes we just get carried away and desensitized when something has been the subject of conversation for so long. I know being chided by the likes of me probably isn’t easy to take because I am usually the one being chided, but I ask you to respect what is written, not the writer.”
JA has so much respect and admiration for your entire family, she even wants to format her own family after yours. She thinks you are going to think she is stupid, whether you say it aloud or not, and that things will never be the same.
“My only request is that you please do your best to make her feel comfortable around you. I don’t even ask for an apology, just don’t send me a rebuttal putting me in to my place because I already know my faults clearly, and honestly, it would only upset me.”
Travis
“PS. After I wrote this I slept on it, reread it, edited it, and described what I felt when I wasn’t angry. So please take it in the spirit it was sent. I love you both very much. “
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FelicityLemon
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o m g
editing to add: I would LOVE to be able to hear the in her own voice as she had this conversation. I'll bet it would sound textbook manipulative. Anything but directly accusing the Hughes, soft-pedaling and acting demurely while setting the stage for him to come to conclusions is usually how it works. I suspect it is because (I'm paraphrasing) of the way he describes her as crying about this and saying she would give anything if she didn't have to damage the relationship between TA and the Hughes, the fact that he BELIEVED the over his years' long and sincere relationship with the Hughes is HUGE RED FLAG that she is very good at manipulation.
This just makes me so sick. The had forced herself into their lives only a short time before and was like a deadly bacteria infecting everyone who came into contact with her, even peripherally. Bacteria? No, she is truly the epitome of a walking Social Disease.
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First reply to Travis, from Sky, January 29, 3:35PM
This conversation needs to happen over the phone, but I only have 15 minutes and do better in writing, and Chris may be writing you now.
I’ll address some things, and if you want me to address the rest, I’ll be happy to.
What I want to say promptly though: You are a wonderful person and we love you (even if you think we don’t). We are excited for you to get married and want you to be happy.
“I knew you would be upset and hurt-you have every right to be-you should be. "
I was going to email you Saturday but it was too late, then I was going to yesterday, but assumed you would be writing me, and I didn’t want to distract you from saying what you wanted to say.
I’m sorry for all this, and would have preferred not to be put into this situation, but that’s what happens when you care about the 2 people who are involved, and I’m ok with that.
I don’t know if this makes sense, but with the info JA gave me, I did what I thought was the right thing, even though it wasn’t the “friend thing” to do.
I can only imagine all the pain you’ve been in over your situation with Deanna, and I know this thing with JA doesn’t help. (No transition to this next sentence).
Just because you have never heard JA crying doesn’t mean she hasn’t been crying. She LOVES you , so much so that she’s afraid to bring up with you anything that is bothering her, or of letting you know she doesn’t think you are perfect, because that might ruin any chance she has with you.
When she explains her CURRENT situation with you to her friends, we are not the only ones to tell her to move on. Everyone she has explained it to has given her the same advice. Telling us how she TRULY feels gave her the chance to tell it to you, indirectly,
Let me sum it up: your sister is in love with someone who is in love with someone else. He can’t be honest even with his friends about his feelings for her. "He won’t allow her" to put up pictures of them where “people” may see them.
He doesn’t call her during the day, only at night, after 1AM, giving her only what’s left of him. He jokingly calls her *advertiser censored*. He tells her to go out with other guys, then makes her feel guilty when she does, thus keeping control without giving her a commitment.
He kisses her in the dark, when no one is around, and messes around with her, but won’t commit. People who know them don’t even know they are “an item.” She loves him more than anything and would do anything for him, and all she wants is for that to be mirrored, but he is not available.
She feels insecure about where she stands with him most of the time, but is too afraid to be honest with him, out of fear she will lose what she doesn’t have. " She is sad and confused unless she’s talking with him, but again, he isn’t available."
“WHAT DO YOU TELL YOUR SISTER TO DO?
Move on, right? Were we so wrong in advising her to do the same?"
I have to go, but will talk with you later, and “JA should know I wouldn’t lose respect for her. I thought I made it clear that even if nothing changes we love her just the same. I will send her a copy of this email.”
“I love ya! (even though you hate me)”
Sky
This conversation needs to happen over the phone, but I only have 15 minutes and do better in writing, and Chris may be writing you now.
I’ll address some things, and if you want me to address the rest, I’ll be happy to.
What I want to say promptly though: You are a wonderful person and we love you (even if you think we don’t). We are excited for you to get married and want you to be happy.
“I knew you would be upset and hurt-you have every right to be-you should be. "
I was going to email you Saturday but it was too late, then I was going to yesterday, but assumed you would be writing me, and I didn’t want to distract you from saying what you wanted to say.
I’m sorry for all this, and would have preferred not to be put into this situation, but that’s what happens when you care about the 2 people who are involved, and I’m ok with that.
I don’t know if this makes sense, but with the info JA gave me, I did what I thought was the right thing, even though it wasn’t the “friend thing” to do.
I can only imagine all the pain you’ve been in over your situation with Deanna, and I know this thing with JA doesn’t help. (No transition to this next sentence).
Just because you have never heard JA crying doesn’t mean she hasn’t been crying. She LOVES you , so much so that she’s afraid to bring up with you anything that is bothering her, or of letting you know she doesn’t think you are perfect, because that might ruin any chance she has with you.
When she explains her CURRENT situation with you to her friends, we are not the only ones to tell her to move on. Everyone she has explained it to has given her the same advice. Telling us how she TRULY feels gave her the chance to tell it to you, indirectly,
Let me sum it up: your sister is in love with someone who is in love with someone else. He can’t be honest even with his friends about his feelings for her. "He won’t allow her" to put up pictures of them where “people” may see them.
He doesn’t call her during the day, only at night, after 1AM, giving her only what’s left of him. He jokingly calls her *advertiser censored*. He tells her to go out with other guys, then makes her feel guilty when she does, thus keeping control without giving her a commitment.
He kisses her in the dark, when no one is around, and messes around with her, but won’t commit. People who know them don’t even know they are “an item.” She loves him more than anything and would do anything for him, and all she wants is for that to be mirrored, but he is not available.
She feels insecure about where she stands with him most of the time, but is too afraid to be honest with him, out of fear she will lose what she doesn’t have. " She is sad and confused unless she’s talking with him, but again, he isn’t available."
“WHAT DO YOU TELL YOUR SISTER TO DO?
Move on, right? Were we so wrong in advising her to do the same?"
I have to go, but will talk with you later, and “JA should know I wouldn’t lose respect for her. I thought I made it clear that even if nothing changes we love her just the same. I will send her a copy of this email.”
“I love ya! (even though you hate me)”
Sky
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Yes, that he believed the over the Hughes was a red flag about how good she was at manipulation.
But, I'm looking at it from another point of view. Travis was being manipulated all right, as were the Hughes.
However Travis felt about the at that point, though, the Hughes were supposed to be some of his closest friends. As Travis said to Sky, he believed that Sky and Chris were his "unconditional" friends; in other words, that they loved him for who he was, as he was.
Yet, Travis on January 29 believed these "unconditional" friends by all appearances had believed everything the said about him, had LISTENED to all the derogatory things she had said about him, over THREE DAYS, and had on every occasion sympathized with HER and HER feelings.
It's TA's response to the Hughes, given what HE believed to be true, (and further in, in response to what they say to him to justify what they said) that I think helps provide some insight into how he responded to not just manipulation, but IMO what Travis got right the first time around (truly egregious boundary crossing by the HUGHES), and how readily he forgave them.
(He recognized that the Hughes had violated those boundaries and was justifiably upset & angry with them. At first. No matter what else he saw & got wrong about the situation, he got that part just right).
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RickshawFan
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I missed the part about him telling her not to come to Mesa that early in their relationship....Before Christmas 2006?
Also...she invited herself to Sky's and Chris's house? For 3 days? I missed that...Besides, what were they thinking? They didn't think something was wrong with a person who shows up uninvited for 3 days? They didn't even think to wonder about basics, like why she wasn't at work? They shoulda been asking all kinds of questions! They hardly knew this person...
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