Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #8

[Hope4More]

Pocket.... Putting everything else aside for the moment, here's an example of the difficulty- likely impossibility- proving the when of forgery.

July 28, 2008. wrote TA's family and said, specifically, that Travis "had never hit her in the face" (but that he had "left bruises on her body."

She also wrote that he had been physically abusive, exactly twice. The second time, she says, was in early April 2008, just before she left Mesa. She doesn't include anything about a first time- neither circumstances or a date. Leaves that wide open, deliberately or not.

What she does also include in this letter is a near verbatim recapitulation of one of her post-murder journal entries she backdated to late May....about the "come clean" conversation in which TA told her about Mimi, which she was totally OK with, but that TA had completely lost it when she "came clean." In this version, he hits himself, not her.

Next. 's mother shopped two of the 10 letters to the National Enquirer (NE) (late 2012, early 2013), neither was the pedo letter we've all seen.

One of the forged letters was dated MARCH 2, 2008. In this letter, TA writes about having hit her in the face. He also says marrying her would help him control his deviant feelings (that's a NE paraphrase).

March 2, 2008. The wrote in her journal that entry about telling TA she was leaving Mesa, and that he'd given her 4 "soft kisses" in the car to say goodbye.

At trial, on the stand, the said TA had hit (slapped?) her in the face on March 2, in the car, after she told him she was leaving Mesa.

------
The problem? Her lies are too inconsistent to try to know with any certainty, in terms of content, when she forged the letters. In this specific instance, IMO the most logical guess is that her journal entry & the July 28th letter predated the forgery. Soft kisses, no hits to the face, TA never hit her in the face.

Next alignment: a forged letter dated March 2, 2008 saying hit in the face, and trial testimony saying exactly that.

 

[pocketaccent]

Pocket.... Putting everything else aside for the moment, here's an example of the difficulty- likely impossibility- proving the when of forgery.

July 28, 2008. wrote TA's family and said, specifically, that Travis "had never hit her in the face" (but that he had "left bruises on her body."

She also wrote that he had been physically abusive, exactly twice. The second time, she says, was in early April 2008, just before she left Mesa. She doesn't include anything about a first time- neither circumstances or a date. Leaves that wide open, deliberately or not.

What she does also include in this letter is a near verbatim recapitulation of one of her post-murder journal entries she backdated to late May....about the "come clean" conversation in which TA told her about Mimi, which she was totally OK with, but that TA had completely lost it when she "came clean." In this version, he hits himself, not her.

Next. 's mother shopped two of the 10 letters to the National Enquirer (NE) (late 2012, early 2013), neither was the pedo letter we've all seen.

One of the forged letters was dated MARCH 2, 2008. In this letter, TA writes about having hit her in the face. He also says marrying her would help him control his deviant feelings (that's a NE paraphrase).

March 2, 2008. The wrote in her journal that entry about telling TA she was leaving Mesa, and that he'd given her 4 "soft kisses" in the car to say goodbye.

At trial, on the stand, the said TA had hit (slapped?) her in the face on March 2, in the car, after she told him she was leaving Mesa.

------
The problem? Her lies are too inconsistent to try to know with any certainty, in terms of content, when she forged the letters. In this specific instance, IMO the most logical guess is that her journal entry & the July 28th letter predated the forgery. Soft kisses, no hits to the face, TA never hit her in the face.

Next alignment: a forged letter dated March 2, 2008 saying hit in the face, and trial testimony saying exactly that.

Her journal entry and the July 28th letter would match because she wrote them (both) post murder, but not the forged letters. When the letter to family was written, she was claiming total innocense. She knew if she was seen as a prolonged abuse victim, she might be looked on as a person who killed her abuser. Needed to avoid 'Just couldn't take it any more beating, so killed him in defense' scenario. She didn't write about abuse in her journal for the same exact reason.

Her claim of very small amount of abuse in the letter and then saying that 'I know it is common behavior for women in abusive relationships to protect their partner by covering for him (or her) and by making excuses, but I din't see it so much like that...' , only tells me she is a master at manipulation. She tried to look sympathetic, while begging for sympathy for suffering just a little bit of abuse, mixed in a bit of reverse psychology, all while managing to put down Travis, and hurting the family even more.

But more importantly, I think the unmatched dates and incidents or inconsistensies on the forged letters vs her journal, the letter to the family, testimony etc, are further proof the letters are pre-murder. Why? Because she forged the letters to destroy alive Travis, rather than to use them as her defense just in case she got caught, just in case she murders him. I don't think she even had a murder in mind when she wrote the letters.

One day during cross, after kept lying and made excuses for her lies, JM yelled (almost) out to her 'You didn't know what your defense was going to be!'
That statement sort of applies here, too. She didn't know she'd end up killing him.
For example, the Jan 2007 letter, the date didn't match her testimony because 'she didn't know what her defense was going to be!'. I don't even understand why she used the nothing noteworthy to report, Jan 2008 as the date anyway. JM demolished her on that.

Do you know what Travis wrote in his journal on March 2, 2008? Maybe he wrote something there that made her use that date as one of the abuse date?

 

[Niner]

WOW! Great discussions going on here. I remember 1/2 the stuff you all mentioned. Must be getting "old". LOL!

 

[salberg7]

Thank you, H4M. I forgot about poor Aylice. She did have an ER visit during trial as well. Do you think that her “if you were in my group now, Mr. Martinez, you’d be put in a time out” (paraphrased) will matter here? (being cynical now)
I am just so angry that the killer continues to get whatever she wants from the courts. Angry that her manipulation continues at the time & expense of so many.
Isn’t the latest impasse in her case against Nurmi have to do with a videotaped deposition? Not sure if she is requesting to be brought to the actual court for the case.
She is a despicable human being.
As we fast approach the June 4 10 year anniversary of the murder, the killer continues to run the show.

 

[Hope4More]

Pocket- will reply later in the day, tending to near & dears for the time being.

Until then:


The second forged letter helpful Mom tried to get the NE to print..

The letter was dated November 27, 2006.

In it TA instructs the to wear boy's underwear (for a particular rendezvous or not the NE does not say), and that he wants to "tear them off."

"TA" also told her he wanted to have her um, service him, while she wore a formal shirt with cufflinks with his initials on them, so he could see his initials while she did his bidding.


November 26, 2006. The is baptized into the LDS church. She's living in CA.

February 14, 2007. According to at trial, the day TA sent her little boy briefs as a Vday gift. And she professed to be, what? A bit puzzled by that, but willing & eager to please him by wearing them?

 

[pocketaccent]

Pocket- will reply later in the day, tending to near & dears for the time being.

Until then:


The second forged letter helpful Mom tried to get the NE to print..

The letter was dated November 27, 2006.

In it TA instructs the to wear boy's underwear (for a particular rendezvous or not the NE does not say), and that he wants to "tear them off."

"TA" also told her he wanted to have her um, service him, while she wore a formal shirt with cufflinks with his initials on them, so he could see his initials while she did his bidding.


November 26, 2006. The is baptized into the LDS church. She's living in CA.

February 14, 2007. According to at trial, the day TA sent her little boy briefs as a Vday gift. And she professed to be, what? A bit puzzled by that, but willing & eager to please him by wearing them?

I didn't know anything about the two letters you shared (thank you). I wonder what other garbage the other letters say.

So, JM read these letters, the knew that he read them when she testified, still she lied inconsistent lies fully knowing JM would recognize the inconsistency. What a she is!

Looks like she was claiming to have known T was a pedophile shortly after meeting him (Nov 26). Then she received the Jan 2007 pedo letter confessing he is. And he wanted to marry her in order to control his deviant feelings (March 2). wow. What a crock of you know what.

 

[Hope4More]

I didn't know anything about the two letters you shared (thank you). I wonder what other garbage the other letters say.

So, JM read these letters, the knew that he read them when she testified, still she lied inconsistent lies fully knowing JM would recognize the inconsistency. What a she is!

Looks like she was claiming to have known T was a pedophile shortly after meeting him (Nov 26). Then she received the Jan 2007 pedo letter confessing he is. And he wanted to marry her in order to control his deviant feelings (March 2). wow. What a crock of you know what.

Dating the "confession" to pedo letter January 21, 2007 was a mistake- hers or someone else's.

She lived in CA, not Mesa, in January 2007. She wouldn't have happened to stop by his house without his expecting her, and he wouldn't have WRITTEN her to tell her to call so he could explain, including why it was he had told her she was never allowed to go into/clean the attic.

Not to mention, around about the 3rd week in January, 2007, she was hanging out, uninvited, at Sky & Chris Hughes' house, manipulating the bejeebers out of them so they would guilt Travis into having a relationship with her, and driving a wedge between TA and these friends, in order for her to gain more control over TA by isolating him.


Oops on the 2007, a big, big, mistake no matter when she forged that letter or had someone else do it.

 

[Hope4More]

Pocket:

How about a brain exercise?

Logic only. Following the evidence and what is known, from scratch, no conclusions drawn about when or how the letters were written; in fact, making that question come second to and contingent upon context.

Here's where I'd start.


1. When did the decide to kill TA?

Here are the possibilities:

1. She began planning to kill him while she was still in Mesa, perhaps as early as January through March , 2008.

2. She began planning to kill him in late March, early April, 2008, when she realized TA wasn't going to change his mind and allow her/help her stay in Mesa, and that although she'd finally scared Lisa away & had waged an extreme sex campaign for months , TA had chosen Mimi , not her.

3. She decided to kill TA after she returned to Yreka, sometime in April.

4. She decided to kill TA in early-mid May.

5. She decided to kill TA sometime between mid-May and the 3rd week of May, when she first called Brewer about the gas cans.

------------------


2. On her way out of town (over a 2 week span), she stole his diamond ring, his Lisa journal, blew up his car, gaslighted him, and tried to prevent him from making the PPL quota that his trip to Cancun was contingent upon. At least these attacks, and likely many more that we don't know about because evidence of them wasn't admissable, and because JM, by choice, didn't explore every rabbit hole of her pathology and wickedness.
------


3. Though the was raging at TA and battering him every which way in late March-the first week of April, the content and tone of what she was writing him was entirely different.

The message she wrote in HIS journal (!)in her journal, in emails, and after she left, in texts, was this (paraphrased):

I'm glad to be going, because I've not been acting like myself, the spiritual and enlightened and devout self I know myself to be. I'm responsible for that, because I should have been strong enough to say no when you constantly asked me/enticed me to trangress.

It will be better for both of us TO TAKE THIS TEMPORARY BREAK from each other. Thank you for all your generosity, you are amazing, life is perfect and we are both on the path to amazing lives. I love you.


Interpretation of that message (versus her actions) is contingent in part upon determining/concluding/speculating whether or not she had already decided to kill Travis, or was already plotting to destroy him, or was deeply delusional about the prospect of TA choosing her as wife, or was certain she could force TA to choose her by eliminating every other of his prospects, no matter what she had to do to chase them off.

Just a start....

 

[Hope4More]

BTW on the COA appeal, the motion to seal.

Looks like the COA is being exceedingly cautious in making this ruling.

's attorneys requested briefs be sealed (not that unusual); and discussed their reasons for doing so to the media (definitely unusual, especially for attorneys screaming violations of due process caused by too much media); and the State objected to the sealing (fairly unusual), without telling the media their reasons for doing so (refreshingly normal& typical); and instead of simply ruling, the COA allowed 's attorneys to RESPOND to the State's objections (reaching the level of WTF?!); and....it seems possible now that the COA granted 's attorneys this last extension of deadline (the 7th? 8th? 10th?) to early June because that's how long they think it will take counsel & the court to resolve the question of whether or not to seal.

 

[pocketaccent]

Pocket:

How about a brain exercise?

Logic only. Following the evidence and what is known, from scratch, no conclusions drawn about when or how the letters were written; in fact, making that question come second to and contingent upon context.

Here's where I'd start.


1. When did the decide to kill TA?

Here are the possibilities:

1. She began planning to kill him while she was still in Mesa, perhaps as early as January through March , 2008.

2. She began planning to kill him in late March, early April, 2008, when she realized TA wasn't going to change his mind and allow her/help her stay in Mesa, and that although she'd finally scared Lisa away & had waged an extreme sex campaign for months , TA had chosen Mimi , not her.

3. She decided to kill TA after she returned to Yreka, sometime in April.

4. She decided to kill TA in early-mid May.

5. She decided to kill TA sometime between mid-May and the 3rd week of May, when she first called Brewer about the gas cans.

------------------


2. On her way out of town (over a 2 week span), she stole his diamond ring, his Lisa journal, blew up his car, gaslighted him, and tried to prevent him from making the PPL quota that his trip to Cancun was contingent upon. At least these attacks, and likely many more that we don't know about because evidence of them wasn't admissable, and because JM, by choice, didn't explore every rabbit hole of her pathology and wickedness.
------


3. Though the was raging at TA and battering him every which way in late March-the first week of April, the content and tone of what she was writing him was entirely different.

The message she wrote in HIS journal (!)in her journal, in emails, and after she left, in texts, was this (paraphrased):

I'm glad to be going, because I've not been acting like myself, the spiritual and enlightened and devout self I know myself to be. I'm responsible for that, because I should have been strong enough to say no when you constantly asked me/enticed me to trangress.

It will be better for both of us TO TAKE THIS TEMPORARY BREAK from each other. Thank you for all your generosity, you are amazing, life is perfect and we are both on the path to amazing lives. I love you.


Interpretation of that message (versus her actions) is contingent in part upon determining/concluding/speculating whether or not she had already decided to kill Travis, or was already plotting to destroy him, or was deeply delusional about the prospect of TA choosing her as wife, or was certain she could force TA to choose her by eliminating every other of his prospects, no matter what she had to do to chase them off.

Just a start....

Okay, first I had to meditate a couple minutes to get the forged letters out of my brain. Wasn't easy but done.

(1) I chose #5. Reason - She hated him throughout the period mentioned of course but after mid-May she felt threatened by TA's fighting back and he had to die.

(2) She hated him, yes.

(3) When she wrote that wishful thinking (to take this temporary break), I believe she truly hoped to be back together with Travis after a temporary break. She was delusional.

How did I do? I don't understand your last paragraph.

 

[pocketaccent]

Dating the "confession" to pedo letter January 21, 2007 was a mistake- hers or someone else's.

She lived in CA, not Mesa, in January 2007. She wouldn't have happened to stop by his house without his expecting her, and he wouldn't have WRITTEN her to tell her to call so he could explain, including why it was he had told her she was never allowed to go into/clean the attic.

Not to mention, around about the 3rd week in January, 2007, she was hanging out, uninvited, at Sky & Chris Hughes' house, manipulating the bejeebers out of them so they would guilt Travis into having a relationship with her, and driving a wedge between TA and these friends, in order for her to gain more control over TA by isolating him.


Oops on the 2007, a big, big, mistake no matter when she forged that letter or had someone else do it.

Could have been a mistake, yes, or maybe not.

I don't think she necessarily matched the real life time period or circumstances to that of the forged letters. After all, these(written pre-murder) were not meant to be introduced as trial evidence where details would be scrutinized, rather the letters were written to destroy and shame TA while he was alive, in general. Nobody will be the wiser.

Her forged timeline sort of pan out. Nov 2006 (boy's underwear) to Jan 2007 (confession) to Mar 2008 (marriage proposal to control deviant feelings)

I have a feeling all 10 letters contain pedo vibes/accusation one way or another.

 

[pocketaccent]

Sorry- last questions, then I'll stop.

1. How did the come in possession of the index cards she had in her cell? They were contraband, forbidden. If someone gave them to her, was it a visitor who smuggled them in? Would that person, then, be equally willing & able to smuggle out index cards on which she'd forged TA's handwriting?

2. JM included in his book what she'd forged in TA's handwriting on one of the index cards confiscated from her cell (it was from TA to the , saying he'd followed her/spied on her out with a guy, that he'd be watching, and would know if she didn't return to her home that she was a *advertiser censored*).

- All 10 forged letters had already been provided to Nurmi via "Bob White." Why was she still making forgeries? Did she intend to have additional forgeries smuggled out? To whom? To produce more "evidence" against Travis? How would that evidence come to be magically discovered? And by whom?

While I firmly believe that the forged letters are pre-murder, the confiscated index cards are mystery. If I have to guess: At the time of this new forgery, Nurmi was bugging her about Bob White's identity and nagging for the originals, so she had to quickly manufacture 'original' forged letters. (Do I have the timeline correctly, Hope?)

Maybe MM got the job for this? But who would be the messenger? IDK. To me, this is another proof the letter forging business could not have been orchestrated from jail. Things seem to get confiscated.

 

[Niner]

snipped by me....
As we fast approach the June 4 10 year anniversary of the murder, the killer continues to run the show.

Oh my god... 10 years already.... No wondering I forgot stuff! LOL!

:candle: Travis!

snipped by me....
5. She decided to kill TA sometime between mid-May and the 3rd week of May, when she first called Brewer about the gas cans.

Not pocketaccent, but...
I have to go with this one. When Travis started to threatening to reveal "who" she really was.

So we wait until June 7, 8 or 9 for COA or the 2 parties to come to a decision to seal or not to seal?

 

[Hope4More]

Could have been a mistake, yes, or maybe not.

I don't think she necessarily matched the real life time period or circumstances to that of the forged letters. After all, these(written pre-murder) were not meant to be introduced as trial evidence where details would be scrutinized, rather the letters were written to destroy and shame TA while he was alive, in general. Nobody will be the wiser.

Her forged timeline sort of pan out. Nov 2006 (boy's underwear) to Jan 2007 (confession) to Mar 2008 (marriage proposal to control deviant feelings)

I have a feeling all 10 letters contain pedo vibes/accusation one way or another.

CUTTING TO THE CHASE....


1. I can't be convinced that the forged the letters, for whatever her reasons, while Travis was still alive. IMO, that possibility makes no sense, for one overriding reason.

Yes, the was certainly malignant enough to scheme such a thing. She was (and is) also delusional, narcissistic, pathological, and supremely confident in her ability to manipulate others.

The big "BUT....." here though, IMO, is that she had to have known not one of TA's friends or even acquaintances would have believed TA was a pedophile. Period. These letters alleging such a thing, mysteriously appearing anywhere at all, letters supposedly written by TA and addressed to the , would only serve to point the finger of suspicion directly at HER.

Most of TA's friends neither liked or trusted her. A fair number of his women friends thought she was downright creepy. TA's closest friends had warned him, repeatedly, that she was either crazy or dangerous, or both. Even before the left Mesa, word had spread (and NOT just via TA, if he blabbed at all) that the was a stalker & a tire slasher, obsessed with TA & that she didn't respect bounderies. There was a reason why so many voiced their suspicion about her to LE immediately after Travis was found dead.

And, I have the distinct feeling that had the tried to blackmail or threaten TA with them directly, he would have slammed her out of his life so quickly & absolutely even that brazen wouldn't have dared to try again.

2. But......it occurs to me there IS a possibility other than she forged them in jail post-ninjas, or that she did so before she murdered him. And....as far as I can think it through, at least as a theoretical possibility, everything lines up.

 

[Hope4More]

So, here's the middle path possibility: she forged the letters sometime in the weeks after she murdered TA and before she was arrested, and most likely in this theory, AFTER Flores had told her by phone that a great many of TA's friends in Mesa were, to paraphrase, saying "some pretty terrible things about her," including that she had stalked him, slashed his tires and the tires of his girlfriend (ouch), had routinely snuck into his house, and had hacked not only into his SM accounts, but also into his bank accounts.

Flores told her that LE would know if she had accessed his SM accounts from Yreka, so from that point forward she wouldn't have dared to delete or plant anything in any of his SM accounts, or, I'd guess, on his phone, if she had until then been able to hack the latter.

2. I think it possible that until Flores told the about these suspicions, she was absolutely convinced she had committed the perfect murder (especially after Flores told her the camera and photos on it had been destroyed). As she replied to her mother when asked if she had been involved in TA's death- "no, and I have the receipts to prove it."

 

[Hope4More]

So, here's the middle path possibility: she forged the letters sometime in the weeks after she murdered TA and before she was arrested, and most likely in this theory, AFTER Flores had told her by phone that a great many of TA's friends in Mesa were, to paraphrase, saying "some pretty terrible things about her," including that she had stalked him, slashed his tires and the tires of his girlfriend (ouch), had routinely snuck into his house, and had hacked not only into his SM accounts, but also into his bank accounts.

Flores told her that LE would know if she had accessed his SM accounts from Yreka, so from that point forward she wouldn't have dared to delete or plant anything in any of his SM accounts, or, I'd guess, on his phone, if she had until then been able to hack the latter.

3. So, she couldn't change or make go away the accusations TA had made about her in emails and texts, those sent directly to her, and those he had exchanged with friends, in which her craziness was alleged & discussed, and in which friends had told TA she was dangerous and that he should get a restraining order against her.

 

[Hope4More]

Timed out, lost next paragraphs, bbl on computer instead of this frikking phone ....

 

[RickshawFan]

While I firmly believe that the forged letters are pre-murder, the confiscated index cards are mystery. If I have to guess: At the time of this new forgery, Nurmi was bugging her about Bob White's identity and nagging for the originals, so she had to quickly manufacture 'original' forged letters. (Do I have the timeline correctly, Hope?)

Maybe MM got the job for this? But who would be the messenger? IDK. To me, this is another proof the letter forging business could not have been orchestrated from jail. Things seem to get confiscated.

I don't get something at all about the potential jail forgery. How was JA going to do a good job of forging TA's handwriting without a sample in front of her?

The only method I can think of is that she and accomplices were holding up written bits during video conference calls. Folks on the other end could have just used screen capture, and voilà: pedophilic text.

Do we even know what was on the cards JM saw her passing in the jail waiting area? These might have been for some other plot that didn't come up at trial?

 

[Niner]

Timed out, lost next paragraphs, bbl on computer instead of this frikking phone ....

I don't see how anyone can see anything on a phone! I have a laptop with a 17" screen and still need to make it 120% bigger! :lol:

 

[TrialWatcher]

:clap:: Niner.

Hope4More and I have disagreed on some key areas. Nonetheless, my admiration for her ability to type huge responses on a smart phone is considerable. I struggle on a MacBook Pro. The site also makes demands to type and edit quite quickly. Doubly impressive!