Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. #2

[Adler]

In response to Alder. I was an adult entertainer/escort/ call girl/ for ten years. Like mosts lings in life you live and learn. It didn' t take me long to figure out that you NEVER trust the lient to pay you after the call, because for one...they will dangle the proverbial carrot, expecting more than you are willing to give and if they are not happy with the services that you have provided...guess what...they dont wanna pay. At that point you can call your security if you have any and hope that the clientt doesnt want any troubwant any trouble or you can try other tactics like refusing to leave or exposing him. Either way it increases the drama and danger considerably! Even if you insist upon collecting up front there is the danger of them trying to physically take the money back which happens more than you would think. I wpuld love to elaborate more but at the moment I am bouncing around in a moving semi ( my husband drives truck) And its very hard to type on my touch screen phone! ; ) Later when we stop I can go a little more into it if u r still interested!

I am going into work mode in a few here, so i just wanted to say that if I do not respond in a day or so, that's the reason. I look forward to your next post though. And please do not feel obligated to possess one and only one "theory" regarding my questions. I kinda like the recent Socratic approach to the subtopics within this thread--is it fair to say that it's okay not to know everything for now? To temporarily postulate instead? not knowing is the first step to posing, pondering, reflecting (PB might add speculating) upon the right questions perhaps. Einstein would insist upon it. We all want the same things. bb in a few . . .

 

[Theforeigner]

Thanks Seajay. When did Pak say Shannan was trying rip him off? I never heard that one. As far as I know Pak never really said what those phone calls were about either. Just wondering.

Here it is.
The website is "down for maintenance " but if you google a sentence from the quote I have posted here and then use the "Cached" function, you will get the entire newsreport:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...erial-killer?&Itemid=3502+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk
(this is the "Cached" link but I don´t think it will work)

Sunday, 24 June 2012 08:43
Was Shannan Gilbert a victim of the Long Island serial killer?
Written by Int Journalist

Quote:

The more you learn about Michael Pak, the stranger he becomes.

On one hand, he's obsessed with his pet Chihuahuas, dressing them up in YouTube videos. On the other hand, he's driving Shannan Gilbert to meet her johns.

And clearly, he was inside Brewer's house when she made that call to 911.

"She says things like, 'Stop it. Stop it.' And you can hear the driver's voice saying, 'Fine, fine, fine,' words to that effect," said Ray.

In a text message, Pak admits to being inside the house during the call. Although he texts that Shannan was in "a paranoid state" he believes it was calculated -- "she was actually coherent and just acting crazy because she didn't want to pay me my cut."

He also says he "never touched her" and maintains that he had nothing to do with Shannan's disappearance.

 

[waltson]

Here it is.
The website is "down for maintenance " but if you google a sentence from the quote I have posted here and then use the "Cached" function, you will get the entire newsreport:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...erial-killer?&Itemid=3502+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk
(this is the "Cached" link but I don´t think it will work)

Sunday, 24 June 2012 08:43
Was Shannan Gilbert a victim of the Long Island serial killer?
Written by Int Journalist

Quote:

The more you learn about Michael Pak, the stranger he becomes.

On one hand, he's obsessed with his pet Chihuahuas, dressing them up in YouTube videos. On the other hand, he's driving Shannan Gilbert to meet her johns.

And clearly, he was inside Brewer's house when she made that call to 911.

"She says things like, 'Stop it. Stop it.' And you can hear the driver's voice saying, 'Fine, fine, fine,' words to that effect," said Ray.

In a text message, Pak admits to being inside the house during the call. Although he texts that Shannan was in "a paranoid state" he believes it was calculated -- "she was actually coherent and just acting crazy because she didn't want to pay me my cut."

He also says he "never touched her" and maintains that he had nothing to do with Shannan's disappearance.

Awesome post

Does anyone else think JB and Pak are lying about never meeting before? It seems like an awfully long drive from Manhattan all the way to Oak Beach for a first time client. LINative13 claims SG was seen locally by JB's friends in the days before her murder. fieldnotes says Coletti told him that Pak referred to JB as "Brewer". Does anyone remember how someone (maybe dwntnslim) found Pak's phone # registered to a local Long Island home?

IMO either JB or drifter, one of them, was not a first time client. Remember the quote "Shannan knew her attacker". Did MP stay and talk with police that night?

 

[Maddalenasgirl]

It looks like it was the reason for the 911 call.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/12/shannan_gilbert_remains_found.html



The last day of Gilbert’s life began when 47-year-old Joseph Brewer, who used to live at 8 The Fairway, in Oak Beach, answered an ad she had posted on a social networking website in April of last year. The sexual encounter, however, never happened, Brewer told The Star-Ledger in an exclusive story in June. What he did say was, she asked him an odd question about transvestites, leading him to believe she was a man, and when Brewer asked her to leave, she began to act erratically, he said.
Brewer then called for help from her driver, Michael Pak, who was waiting in an SUV outside the home. When Brewer tried to grab Gilbert from behind, according to Pak, she slipped his grip and cowered behind a couch. From there she dialed 911 and during a 23-minute-long phone call pleaded with authorities to help her because someone was trying to kill her.

Not really buying JB's story. However, I am speculating why Shannan would have asked JB that question about transvestites. I wonder if could have heard about an Asian Transvestite that went missing after a job in Long Island?

 

[Maddalenasgirl]

Yes, still interested. I think your take can shed light on SG's actions and behavior at Brewer's house in ways the rest here fail. And thank you very much for considering a lengthier response when the truck stops. Among my questions in advance is this: Would "acting crazy" serve as a strategy for getting paid from an unruly client if you were still under his roof and had a driver outside? What do you think happened at JB's? If you were in a situation where a client suddenly changed the terms of agreement and said, "We ain't gonna pay ya; now scram," at what point would you chalk it up to a loss? I think Pak was resigned to that when he entered the house to retrieve Shannan. What do you think? I think the people on this thread need your insight and information about a trade we know nothing about. Please do so, copiously, if you please. Thanks again.

I would really be interested in hearing what you think happened to Shannan in that house to scare her so much into calling 911.

 

[waltson]

Not really buying JB's story. However, I am speculating why Shannan would have asked JB that question about transvestites. I wonder if could have heard about an Asian Transvestite that went missing after a job in Long Island?

imo the question really is why would JB say she asked about trannies

 

[Seajay]

Here it is.
The website is "down for maintenance " but if you google a sentence from the quote I have posted here and then use the "Cached" function, you will get the entire newsreport:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...erial-killer?&Itemid=3502+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk
(this is the "Cached" link but I don´t think it will work)

Sunday, 24 June 2012 08:43
Was Shannan Gilbert a victim of the Long Island serial killer?
Written by Int Journalist

Quote:

The more you learn about Michael Pak, the stranger he becomes.

On one hand, he's obsessed with his pet Chihuahuas, dressing them up in YouTube videos. On the other hand, he's driving Shannan Gilbert to meet her johns.

And clearly, he was inside Brewer's house when she made that call to 911.

"She says things like, 'Stop it. Stop it.' And you can hear the driver's voice saying, 'Fine, fine, fine,' words to that effect," said Ray.

In a text message, Pak admits to being inside the house during the call. Although he texts that Shannan was in "a paranoid state" he believes it was calculated -- "she was actually coherent and just acting crazy because she didn't want to pay me my cut."

He also says he "never touched her" and maintains that he had nothing to do with Shannan's disappearance.

Thank you for finding that for me. I had read it here many times and when I stated it as a point, I didn't know where it was, I just remembered the information. I knew he had thought she was trying to cut him out of his pay from articles previously posted here. When asked where I got it, I couldn't remember where it was. Thanks again.

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

Waltson, I have been sleuthing this case extensively since the very beginning. If you go back and read the old discussions you can certainly find a time when I was furious thinking the same thing (that the fact that she said they were going to kill her and then she died was proof enough that she was murdered). But then I kept digging deeper and deeper.

The facts of this case then lead me to question under what circumstances do killers allow their victim to make a 911 call and stay on the phone for 18 minutes while the police tried to figure out what island she was calling from (yes; they DID NOT even know if she was on Fire Island, Long Island or Jones' Island and either did she).

I then started to question why anyone would kill SG when they were fully aware that she brought a driver to protect her.

I then started to question whether or not SG was anything like the GB4 in that she was driven to client's homes while the others were clearly stalked by their killer.

I then started to question whether or not JB was intelligent enough to be the LISK.

I then started to question whether or not MP would be so stupid as to be the LISK and to kill the one girl they could easily trace to him.

When the crazy stuff about CPH's call came up the sleuthing clearly revealed that although he might be a colorful strange character who loves to inject himself into other people's business, he clearly is not the serial killer type.

I then started to question if CPH was the serial killer, why be so good at covering his tracks with the GB4 but so sloppy with SG?

The facts of this case then lead me to question under what circumstances does a person wind up dead but not murdered after a frantic call announcing that he/she was going to be killed. The answer I found was not under most circumstances unless the person has a known history of mental illness such as bipolar disorder. A little more research and I discover a long, long history of bipolar illness, refusal to take her medication to treat that illness, chronic use of cocaine & ectasy, a troubled childhood where she was removed from the care of her mother's home due to physical abuse and ANGER; lots and lots of anger. Her family, friends and neighbors all described this anger in the form of uncontrollable rages and emotional outbursts. Her rage and "episodes" were nothing new to MP because they had occured frequently (this WAS NOT the first time she ran from a client's home screaming and having one of her bipolar episodes).

Further sleuthing revealed that in addition to not taking her medication, being under huge amounts of stress, constantly putting herself in harm's way with her prostitution & drug use, she was clearly not healthy because she dropped a large amount of weight in a very short period of time. Further sleuthing revealed that she was at extremely high risk for heart attack, stroke as well as suicide due to all of the factors mentioned above.

Bottomline was that she clearly stopped caring about herself or her well being. She was in an abusive relationship that included severe violence and she didn't care about herself enough to get out of it.

I totally understand the emotions involved here for those who seek justice for Shannon.

I get it.

I understand that there is a rage... an anger against JB, CPH, MP and the rest of the Oak Beach gang. The unimaginable happened the evening of May 1st 2010. A mother lost her daughter. Siblings lost their sister. A baby lost her aunt. A bright young lady who was dealt a bad start to her life died before she ever had the chance to turn her luck around.

It is a tragedy on so many levels.

I understand the rage against the police investigators and against the Oak Beach association for appearing to do very little to investigate her case when she first disappeared.

I think the absolute most difficult obstacle I had when I attempted to sleuth this case was to distance myself from all of that rage and emotions (that none of us can help but to feel when we first look at this case). Then, as time went on and I weighed each and every aspect of this case I eventually found new ways to approach and evaluate the facts without the emotions clouding my vision (I guess I sort of grew numb to it all over time). I still have not made any conclusion as to what has happened to SG because we are missing so many pieces to the puzzle that we cannot possibly ever know without a confession that she was indeed murdered.

All I can say is that once you rise above letting the emotional aspect of this case get the best of you, the facts start to speak for themself and the likelyhood that SG was murdered by one of the Oak Beach clan or that the LISK accidentally stumbled upon her that evening becomes less with each passing day and the likelyhood that the police got it right that she died accidentally starts to reveal itself as being the more obvious answer.

I know this seems cold and harsh because it doesn't allow the justice that everyone seeks for Shannon.

Maybe one day the LISK will be caught and we will know the truth whether or not SG was one of his victims.

Until then, keep on sleuthing and try to do it with an open mind and without the rage and emotions that so easily cloud our judgement.

And please don't lash out at others who have been sleuthing this case for a very long time.

@Seaslug44 - in reference to the below bolded and large font ..information you are stating as fact here.

can you please give your reference - magazine article, interview, television special - that quotes - what you have said?

i am enclosing your quote about sg...being removed from the home from anger and physical abuse. in case you are not aware - shannan and her 3 sisters were removed when shannan was SIX....
thank you - i await your response.

A little more research and I discover a long, long history of bipolar illness, refusal to take her medication to treat that illness, chronic use of cocaine & ectasy, a troubled childhood where she was removed from the care of her mother's home due to physical abuse and ANGER; lots and lots of anger. Her family, friends and neighbors all described this anger in the form of uncontrollable rages and emotional outbursts.

 

[hawkshaw]

1. Shannan was found dead after she made an out-call to Brewer.
2. In less than 1 mile four other bodies were found that were also prostitutes.
3. Cause of death is undetermined.
4. She made a phone call to 911 screaming they are trying to kill me.

As a former detective I once had to go to a crime scene near JFK airport. A motorist had found a body in the marsh area. The body was bound in a rug. His hands were bound behind his back and his mouth was taped. The LT of the detective squad also responded and he tried to sell us the notion that this wasn't a murder. The guy may have died from a drug overdose and his friends got rid of the body.

 

[hawkshaw]

What is kind of 'funny' about this case is there was a cop that took his job seriously, the K-9 officer. From news accounts it seems that he went out on his own to search the area to take his dog Fido though the motions....a field trip, if you will.

Had Shannan's family not pestered the police to find Shannan, this cop probably would have stayed in his quarters and we never would have been posting these thousands of messages.

If there are ANY heroes in this case it is the K-9 cop and Fido. I'll betcha a good cigar that this cop has been told: DON'T EVER DO THAT AGAIN!!!

 

[fred&edna]

@Seaslug44 - in reference to the below bolded and large font ..information you are stating as fact here.

can you please give your reference - magazine article, interview, television special - that quotes - what you have said?

i am enclosing your quote about sg...being removed from the home from anger and physical abuse. in case you are not aware - shannan and her 3 sisters were removed when shannan was SIX....
thank you - i await your response.

*snipped by me to save space




I have also been curious about comments made by others regarding SG's supposed history of "rage" and "freaking out".

While I agree there is no evidence that SG was murdered, two of the strangest aspects of this case are:

1) The 23 minute 911 call (screams that they are trying to kill her) and then (eventually) her body is found.

2) Her pants, shoes, lip gloss and purse were found in one location while she was found quite some distance away. No one has successfully explained (imo) how this occurred. Sure, the paradoxical undressing theory has been discussed and stressed emphatically by several people here, but as far as I know this has never been stated by LE (nor the media) as fact. If I'm not mistaken, LE's theory is that the thick brambles, brush, thickets, etc. caused her pants to come off. Both of these explanations are just "theory", not fact.

While I don't know (nor do I have a good theory) as to what happened to SG that night, those two above-mentioned points alone keep me from believing her death was accidental. Even if you throw in supposed mental instability/rage from childhood... nope, it's not working for me.

 

[Seajay]

I guess unless there is any new evidence and/or SCPD makes another announcement, there is nothing left to talk about here and no one should be posting any longer.

 

[Just K]

Many of us do not believe that SG's hysteria, if that is what you want to call it, was not necessarily related to her drug or lack of drug use, prescribed or illegal, that night. Many of us feel that if she were terrorized and in fear of her life, she would have exhibited all of the same behaviors that GC and BC described and some of the behaviors that Pak described.

And, if someone had given her something like GHB, Ruffies, XTC, or any of a number of prescription drugs that it may have enhanced her terror but not been the only cause of it.

 

[Just K]

Just to Add: This case is still an open investigation, is it not?

 

[mcme]

1. Shannan was found dead after she made an out-call to Brewer.
2. In less than 1 mile four other bodies were found that were also prostitutes.
3. Cause of death is undetermined.
4. She made a phone call to 911 screaming they are trying to kill me.

As a former detective I once had to go to a crime scene near JFK airport. A motorist had found a body in the marsh area. The body was bound in a rug. His hands were bound behind his back and his mouth was taped. The LT of the detective squad also responded and he tried to sell us the notion that this wasn't a murder. The guy may have died from a drug overdose and his friends got rid of the body.

Regarding #2, SG was found about 3 miles and on the other side of the parkway from the nearest set of remains. That is a Jane Doe who's body parts were also found elsewhere. She was found about 7 miles from the GB4.
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/bodies-found-at-li-beaches-1.2541830?qr=1

Regarding #4, everyone who's heard the 911 tape said SG said they're trying to kill me. There's no credible report of her screaming it to anyone.

 

[fieldnotes]

Here it is.
The website is "down for maintenance " but if you google a sentence from the quote I have posted here and then use the "Cached" function, you will get the entire newsreport:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...erial-killer?&Itemid=3502+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk
(this is the "Cached" link but I don´t think it will work)

Sunday, 24 June 2012 08:43
Was Shannan Gilbert a victim of the Long Island serial killer?
Written by Int Journalist

Quote:

The more you learn about Michael Pak, the stranger he becomes.

On one hand, he's obsessed with his pet Chihuahuas, dressing them up in YouTube videos. On the other hand, he's driving Shannan Gilbert to meet her johns.

And clearly, he was inside Brewer's house when she made that call to 911.

"She says things like, 'Stop it. Stop it.' And you can hear the driver's voice saying, 'Fine, fine, fine,' words to that effect," said Ray.

In a text message, Pak admits to being inside the house during the call. Although he texts that Shannan was in "a paranoid state" he believes it was calculated -- "she was actually coherent and just acting crazy because she didn't want to pay me my cut."

He also says he "never touched her" and maintains that he had nothing to do with Shannan's disappearance.

A reminder that Pak and Diaz are FRIENDS. And these two with their sunglasses and their well rehearsed stories and smug smiles as well as their visit to Oak Beach together to look for Shannan are highly SUSPECT IMO.

 

[Redbird]

Early on in Mari's interviews with reporters she said after Shannan's 911 call there were no incoming calls from Alex on Shannan's phone or phones. She was pointing out that Alex must have already known what happened to her since he didn't need to call her. This is an interesting rumor it is probably too late to follow up on. Mods,please remove if you do not think it is appropriate for this thread.

 

[Harmony 2]

Friendly reminder: Please refrain from discussing other members and how they should post or what they should do before they post. :tyou:

 

[LINative13]

I came up with a new theory...what do you think?

SG showed up and got paid by JB for the hour or so she was supposed to be there. They hang for a while; For some reason SG stays longer than she was originally paid for. SG tries to collect an amount from JB for the extra time that JB does not agree with. A disagreement starts. MP is called by SG. JB tries to make her be quiet because he dont wanna draw attention to fact he got a hooker at his beach house. SG freaks. Finally after a little freaking out, SG is finally gotten out of the door. JB stays in house, because the last thing he wants anything to do with is a psychotic hooker running around his quiet beach neighborhood when they all know he is married. Closes his front door because he wants nothing to do with whats going on out front. (lets not sugar caot things please). I have said it before, JB and SG were not trying to split the atom in that house. From there she plits, MP follows. SG goes to GC. Then leaves once MP shows up. From there we are pretty foggy. WHy would MP stop SG and get her in the car going down the other road. Besides if she gets caught he will get in trouble because she will squeal about why and who brought her out there. So MP tries to find a girl he knew for a pretty solid period of time. From what goes on from there...I am confuised. I find it hard to belive MP stopped looking for her after she ran out from GC's boat.

Fire away, what do you guys think?

 

[fieldnotes]

I came up with a new theory...what do you think?

SG showed up and got paid by JB for the hour or so she was supposed to be there. They hang for a while; For some reason SG stays longer than she was originally paid for. SG tries to collect an amount from JB for the extra time that JB does not agree with. A disagreement starts. MP is called by SG. JB tries to make her be quiet because he dont wanna draw attention to fact he got a hooker at his beach house. SG freaks. Finally after a little freaking out, SG is finally gotten out of the door. JB stays in house, because the last thing he wants anything to do with is a psychotic hooker running around his quiet beach neighborhood when they all know he is married. Closes his front door because he wants nothing to do with whats going on out front. (lets not sugar caot things please). I have said it before, JB and SG were not trying to split the atom in that house. From there she plits, MP follows. SG goes to GC. Then leaves once MP shows up. From there we are pretty foggy. WHy would MP stop SG and get her in the car going down the other road. Besides if she gets caught he will get in trouble because she will squeal about why and who brought her out there. So MP tries to find a girl he knew for a pretty solid period of time. From what goes on from there...I am confuised. I find it hard to belive MP stopped looking for her after she ran out from GC's boat.

Fire away, what do you guys think?

Maybe she ran from GC's to the basketball courts and through the clearing along the trail parallel to the parkway. MP follows on foot after parking his truck in the clearing there and then perhaps a confrontation takes place. Ive heard her purse and shoes looked in "perfect" condition after being in the marsh for what would have been a year and a half. Maybe they were put there after the fact. I dunno, just thinking outloud. Not married to anything.