Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. What do you think?

[PAXIMUS]

Points I would like to make.

1) It does not matter one iota what MP was convicted for in relation to the Chinese girl that was coming to America. The day SG died, MP was providing transportation for a sex worker and earning a portion of his living by that means. If he was hired by JB as some have implied, he was also facilitating the sale of sexual services. It really does not matter what name you give it, sex-trafficking, pimping, living off the avails of prostitution, a procurer or flesh-peddler; he was aiding and abetting the traffic of sexual services for money............It is what it is.

2) There is a possibility that SG died as a result of natural causes, and there is a possibility that her death (even if it involved foul play) has no linkage to the LISK.

However when you weigh all the evidence, rumors, speculations, probabilities, hearsay and opinions, the likelihood that foul play was involved with SG's death and that it had some linkage to the LISK are pretty strong.

3) I believe the longer it takes the autopsy results to be released the greater the chance that foul play was involved; It is my understanding that drowning and hypothermia deaths are relatively routine and identifiable even on skeletal remains. The fact there is a long delay already in the release of the results leads me to believe the ME has found evidence that is inconsistent with a natural cause death.


MOO

BBM

Irrelevant to this discussion which was centered on the allegation that Mr. PAK was CONVICTED of sex trafficking, he was not, end of story.


He was also not "sexually trafficking" SG, she willfully and knowingly and voluntarily and of her own accord and free will HIRED MR. PAK, according to all reports, to drive her around while she provided escort services to clients. Hiring an escort is not against the law, paying for sexual intercourse is, we dont know that was the case, perhaps her clients hired her to just go on dates with them and paid her just to be arm candy, that is what an escort by definition is. She may have been a PROSTITUTE, I do not know, she advertised as an escort though and that is not illegal and someone who drives her so she can provide escort services is not a sex trafficker.

If there is evidence that Mr. Pak was her PIMP then I would need to see that, I havent seen anything to that end, I have seen only people say she hired him to drive her around after they worked together for another escort agency and decided to leave to pursue their own business.

Is this naive? Probably, but that is the facts as they are laid out before us and that is all we have to go on.

 

[dc20015]

Ok...and this is in no way a criticism, argument, etc. of anyone and I could be missing something. But I've been reading and rereading the portion of the thread given (which is in and of itself someone on LISK.com claiming to be MG)...

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150787&page=6

I'm not seeing her saying Shannan identified MP or anyone named Mike as her attacker.

Here is one MSM source claiming the family said she named her attacker:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/york-police-hunting-serial-killer/story?id=12410292&page=2#.Tz2EbYePVTI

reference page 2.

But I don't see anywhere a person named specifically.

This supposed MG (and maybe it was...I don't know) answers alot of questions about MP and AD, but I don't see her saying SG named MP or a Mike as her attacker. She talks about CPH and MP/AD activity in the days following the disappearance.

So, again, not here to harp. Just in the interest of clarification and fact collection.

 

[the quiet girl]

Making money off of the back of a prostitute makes a pimp, in my world at least.
oh a new code imwal ( in my world at least)
I never get these short hand anyway.

 

[the quiet girl]

Ok...and this is in no way a criticism, argument, etc. of anyone and I could be missing something. But I've been reading and rereading the portion of the thread given (which is in and of itself someone on LISK.com claiming to be MG)...

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150787&page=6

I'm not seeing her saying Shannan identified MP or anyone named Mike as her attacker.

Here is one MSM source claiming the family said she named her attacker:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/york-police-hunting-serial-killer/story?id=12410292&page=2#.Tz2EbYePVTI

reference page 2.

But I don't see anywhere a person named specifically.

This supposed MG (and maybe it was...I don't know) answers alot of questions about MP and AD, but I don't see her saying SG named MP or a Mike as her attacker. She talks about CPH and MP/AD activity in the days following the disappearance.

So, again, not here to harp. Just in the interest of clarification and fact collection.

There hasn't that I have heard any info on who SG named on the 911 call. We will never know NY does not release the recorded tape as a law now.

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

What I don't understand is
why did pak leave?

He was last seen - as he stated himself - that he went searching for Shannan - and he said on the A&E documentary that he called her name and got no answer and left.

But GC has said many times that when GC told Pak that he called the cops - that Pak said "you shouldnt have dont that now shes going to be in real trouble" and Pak left.

why did pak leave? He himself has stated that oak beach was dark and in the middle of no where and really far away. How did he expect shannan to get home to her boyfriend AD? Mari Gilbert said that shannan did not have a drivers license - and so shannan couldnt drive. Since she was in the middle of NO WHERE - and REALLY FAR AWAY

how was she supposed to get home?

Why would he leave? he was PAID to be her DRIVER?

Pak's "alibi" is that shannan was screaming (you're) trying to kill me - and running AWAY
from him - toward Coletti's house. AT COLETTI's HOUSE - when she saw Pak - (while hiding
under that little dinghy) she "darted" away - running AWAY from Pak. At this point - she's on the
phone with 911- and it has been alleged that Pak's voice could be heard in the background of the
phonecall - soothing her and coaxing her...

so Pak's own words in his interviews
CONTRADICTS the SCPD detective - who wrote a editorial to the (newsday?) paper that
shannan was calm and reasonable on the phone call - and that's my final statement.

 

[truthspider]

We will never know NY does not release the recorded tape as a law now.

wiki leaks! wiki leaks! wiki leaks!
:rocker:


I think we will hear it someday, but hopefully not until the trial and conviction.

 

[truthspider]

What I don't understand is
why did pak leave?

why did pak leave?

Why would he leave? he was PAID to be her DRIVER?

ok, everyone needs a reality check here, he is her driver, not her boyfriend, pimp, lover, etc.

He is a minority who served actual jail time for passport follies and you want him to hang out and explain to the police the fine line between escorting and prostitution? Pak is allergic to the police like the sk is allergic to dogs. If you can't understand why he bolted maybe you shouldn't watch so much tv about hero soldiers risking their life to find there downed man. You don't hang out waiting for the cops in reality, if you are doing some slightly shady ish and your friend bugs out, that's there problem, it's everybody for themselves in black market business. The mere fact that he looked for her for a little while once he knew the police was coming is impressive if you ask me. The night of May 1st wasn't a horror movie, (not until days later and then months later) it was just another night and MP didn't think this was a life or death situation, it was a get caught an arrested or leave and don't get arrested situation.

Pak wasn't, isn't and shouldn't go back to jail because SG is freaking out, I think that was his line of thinking anyway and I don't think I would have acted much differently.

"Now she's really gonna be in trouble" because she is going to be arrested not because MP is a killer. The man's biggest crime is document related and he dresses up poodles, that is not the track record of a 41 year old murderer.

People need to stop pretending that interaction with law enforcement is standard operating procedure for black market business, the last thing pak would do is wait around to be arrested, and that isn't a crime.

Pak came back and looked, filed a MP report, isn't turning down polygraphs, and is willing to do interviews....Because he isn't hiding anything. <Modsnip>

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

ok, everyone needs a reality check here, he is her driver, not her boyfriend, pimp, lover, etc.

He is a minority who served actual jail time for passport follies and you want him to hang out and explain to the police the fine line between escorting and prostitution? Pak is allergic to the police like the sk is allergic to dogs. If you can't understand why he bolted maybe you shouldn't watch so much tv about hero soldiers risking their life to find there downed man. You don't hang out waiting for the cops in reality, if you are doing some slightly shady ish and your friend bugs out, that's there problem, it's everybody for themselves in black market business. The mere fact that he looked for her for a little while once he knew the police was coming is impressive if you ask me. The night of May 1st wasn't a horror movie, (not until days later and then months later) it was just another night and MP didn't think this was a life or death situation.

Pak wasn't, isn't and shouldn't go back to jail because SG is freaking out, I think that was his line of thinking anyway and I don't think I would have acted much differently.

"Now she's really gonna be in trouble" because she is going to be arrested not because MP is a killer. The man's biggest crime is document related and he dresses up poodles, that is not the track record of a 41 year old murderer.

People need to stop pretending that interaction with law enforcement is standard operating procedure for black market business, the last thing pak would do is wait around to be arrested, and that isn't a crime.

TS - you have pointed out that SG was freaking out - which totally contradicts what the editorial letter writing SCPD Detective Vincent Stephan wrote to Newsday on Jan. 23, 2012.

 

[the quiet girl]

Personally, I don't think MP did it as shady as he is I just don't think so for some reason or another. I think he may know who and the what/why if something foul did happen to SG and he just wanted to be as far away from that as possible. It would explain him saying now shes going to be in trouble takes one last quick look to save her and runs? or the trouble was just typical prostitute trouble with the cops?

 

[dc20015]

Making money off of the back of a prostitute makes a pimp, in my world at least.
oh a new code imwal ( in my world at least)
I never get these short hand anyway.

Traditionally, pimps have been...oh shall we say...the business managers or agents of prostitutes. They find them jobs and take a huge portion of the money in exchange for management of their affairs and protection from the customer. In this world also, there is almost always an exploitative nature to the whole deal, with the understanding that the pimp is in charge.

In a situation where a prostitute hires a driver to work with her and she usually or aways finds the jobs and he is there to shuttle to and fro, not so much to protect. And the money and power is fairly shared or mostly with her. That, I do not consider a pimp. IMHO and also I think by dictionary definition.

 

[SoSueMe]

Please stop with the pettiness and veiled accusations back and forth. And please DO NOT respond to such posts. We'd like to keep this forum open, but we can easily remove it with three easy clicks. It's that simple. It's up to you whether it is removed or whether it remains. We've warned everyone numerous times. I've read your posts and you all seem to be very intelligent individuals, so you know what you're doing. We've given a lot of leeway in this forum, but evidently it's being abused.

From this point on, post at your own peril. Loss of posting privileges will be handed out swiftly for those violating TOS.

Sue
WS Co-Owner

 

[WINDSOR]

ok, everyone needs a reality check here, he is her driver, not her boyfriend, pimp, lover, etc.

He is a minority who served actual jail time for passport follies and you want him to hang out and explain to the police the fine line between escorting and prostitution? Pak is allergic to the police like the sk is allergic to dogs. If you can't understand why he bolted maybe you shouldn't watch so much tv about hero soldiers risking their life to find there downed man. You don't hang out waiting for the cops in reality, if you are doing some slightly shady ish and your friend bugs out, that's there problem, it's everybody for themselves in black market business. The mere fact that he looked for her for a little while once he knew the police was coming is impressive if you ask me. The night of May 1st wasn't a horror movie, (not until days later and then months later) it was just another night and MP didn't think this was a life or death situation, it was a get caught an arrested or leave and don't get arrested situation.

Pak wasn't, isn't and shouldn't go back to jail because SG is freaking out, I think that was his line of thinking anyway and I don't think I would have acted much differently.

"Now she's really gonna be in trouble" because she is going to be arrested not because MP is a killer. The man's biggest crime is document related and he dresses up poodles, that is not the track record of a 41 year old murderer.

People need to stop pretending that interaction with law enforcement is standard operating procedure for black market business, the last thing pak would do is wait around to be arrested, and that isn't a crime.

Pak came back and looked, filed a MP report, isn't turning down polygraphs, and is willing to do interviews....Because he isn't hiding anything. <Modsnip>

Truth, good points and plausible. However I think he had SG in his vehicle with him and that was even more motivation for him to leave.

If as some people believe that SG was not in Oak Beach when LE looked for her, she must have been taken away that morning. Nobody else is documented as having left prior to LE arriving.

MOO

 

[truthspider]

Truth, good points and plausible. However I think he had SG in his vehicle with him and that was even more motivation for him to leave.

If as some people believe that SG was not in Oak Beach when LE looked for her, she must have been taken away that morning. Nobody else is documented as having left prior to LE arriving.

MOO

or taken inside someones home, or put someplace that le couldn't have looked?

I think le could have determined if she left in paks vehicle, also le has admitted that the 911 call actually corroborates paks side of the story. I don't think it is plausible that she left oak beach in paks car while colletti is at gate, then her remains and possessions are later brought back and placed deep in the brush behind larboard court.

 

[Aleph]

In a situation where a prostitute hires a driver to work with her and she usually or aways finds the jobs and he is there to shuttle to and fro, not so much to protect. And the money and power is fairly shared or mostly with her. That, I do not consider a pimp. IMHO and also I think by dictionary definition.

(RSBM)

I agree with you. But it's worth keeping in mind that MP had arranged this particular date with JB. (And how did he know JB? A world of questions I wish I could ask him about that.) That didn't make him her full-time pimp, but he was involved more deeply than just as a driver, at least on this occasion.

 

[MrsPC]

My newest opinion on the case after thinking all night about it....

When police finally got serious about looking for Barthelemy, her boyfriend stated that Barthelemy & another girl used to go to Long Island all the time. He described the john's home to police & at that time they told him they were already aware of the john. This was in 2010.

And per a police association report, when Malia actually went looking along Ocean parkway with his dog he was searching for Barthelemy - not Gilbert. But when bodies were found (including Barthelemey's) they descended on Brewer's home & impounded his vehicle.

I believe that Joseph Brewer is the serial killer of the Gilgo 4...but, he didn't kill Gilbert. True, there was a major problem with her & her cellphone, but she got away. He thought she was still alive. But, that's also why he felt bold enough to kill again with the last 2 victims afterward. And, it's why he convinced them not to bring their cellphones along. He didn't want any problems like another 911 call with them.

I think now that Gilbert did die of either a drug overdose, or a stroke, a heart attack, or hypothermia....and Brewer didn't count on that.

here I go again...couldn't sleep all night & this was on my mind again.

I'm retracting my post above. I don't think that Brewer is the killer now because *if* he had threatened to kill Shannan, even if he thought she got away on foot, he would realize that she would phone police about him, and he wouldn't risk killing the other 2 ladies so soon after the episode with Shannan.

And I cannot get that photo of Shannan's remains out of my head. I have about 30 different copies on my computer - rotated, enlarged, brightened, contrasted, color inverted, etc...and I *still* say that there is something on top of her body that isn't clothing, vegetation or bone.

And, it's still my opinion that Pak skeedaddled outta there when Coletti told him he was calling police (and Pak even stated he didn't know that there were homes off to the right where Gilbert ran and reports also say he was looking for her along Ocean Parkway.

And I believe the Coletti's that no other vehicles came or went thru the gate til police arrived.

So....either the Doc or someone in his general vicinity killed Gilbert or she died on her own.

But, police took cadaver dogs on the doc's property....so where was Gilbert if he was the killer?

 

[Dwntwnslim]

What I'm wondering is if MP might be calling himself a "driver" as opposed to "pimp" for legal reasons?

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

Originally Posted by MrsPC
My newest opinion on the case after thinking all night about it....

When police finally got serious about looking for Barthelemy, her boyfriend stated that Barthelemy & another girl used to go to Long Island all the time. He described the john's home to police & at that time they told him they were already aware of the john. This was in 2010.

And per a police association report, when Malia actually went looking along Ocean parkway with his dog he was searching for Barthelemy - not Gilbert. But when bodies were found (including Barthelemey's) they descended on Brewer's home & impounded his vehicle.

@Mrs. PC -- Am i correct in believing that JB "hired" Barthelemy and another girl to go to LI? (oak beach?) location? and when sleuthers were saying that the police knew of the johns house - they knew of JB?

i have to say - if you answer yes - that literally takes my breath away.

I always thought JB was only involved in....all this.....with regards to Shannan and the ONE party - but if JB gets ...connected to Barthelemy (which was AFTER shannan went missing) this is ......jaw dropping information. Shocking....I guess... I have really been in the dark.

 

[Redbird]

Maureen Brainerd Barnes last seen July 9,2007 lived in Connecticcut, only in Manhatten one day. Not likely she knew any of the other women.

Melissa Barthelemy last seen on July 10, 2009.

Megan Waterman was traveling back and forth from Maine (according to her mother) with her abusive and controlling pimp/boyfriend and disappeared June 16, 2010 and she is unlikely to have hung out with a girlfriend on L.I.

Shannan disappeared May 1, 2010 and was unfamiliar with Long Island according to her family and MP.

Amber Lynn Costello had only been living in North Babylon, arriving from North Caroline, for six months. She disappeared September 2, 2010. So Shannan could have only been alive the first two months Amber lived on LI. Not likely she was the escort buddy.

LE must have the information of who the other escort was and the john they used to visit. One can't help but think it might have been CPH or JB. But it was probably some older man we have not heard about.

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

Originally Posted by MrsPC
My newest opinion on the case after thinking all night about it....

When police finally got serious about looking for Barthelemy, her boyfriend stated that Barthelemy & another girl used to go to Long Island all the time. He described the john's home to police & at that time they told him they were already aware of the john. This was in 2010.

And per a police association report, when Malia actually went looking along Ocean parkway with his dog he was searching for Barthelemy - not Gilbert. But when bodies were found (including Barthelemey's) they descended on Brewer's home & impounded his vehicle.

@Mrs. PC -- Am i correct in believing that JB "hired" Barthelemy and another girl to go to LI? (oak beach?) location? and when sleuthers were saying that the police knew of the johns house - they knew of JB?

i have to say - if you answer yes - that literally takes my breath away.

I always thought JB was only involved in....all this.....with regards to Shannan and the ONE party - but if JB gets ...connected to Barthelemy (which was AFTER shannan went missing) this is ......jaw dropping information. Shocking....I guess... I have really been in the dark.

thank you red bird for your ...details on the women and when they went missing.

I was shocked.....when...mrs. pc - was (thinking out loud?) or stating that Malia was searching for Melissa Barthelemy and he and Blue found....the bodies by the side of the road. and then...the next sentence does say the police descended upon Brewer's house.

I never put two and two together like that before.....I know the dogs and police were at Brewer's and GC's and CPH's - but i thought it was just because shannan was last seen there and they realized.....
something was .....not good....in the land of oak beach.

and they (the police) were grasping at straws......by going back to brewer's.

What is more perturbing than anything is - One of Shannan's drivers - said - that she has freaked out - and acted out - such as like at Oak Beach before....but....did THAT driver leave her stranded with no way to get home? in the middle of NO WHERE? and did she end up DEAD...in a marsh????? THAT time (um i know the answer is NO)

its a huge leap to go running into the night - and screaming someone is trying to kill you - and you are obviously freaked out - and then.......end up deceased.....SEPARATED from your PHONE and JEANS....... with the very same M.O. as the other 9 victims (plus the one baby) and the baby was dismembered by the way......

I really do believe she met up with LISK. yes, i do. It's kind of hard not to think that. If not - then a really sick creepy copy cat...but....?????
oh this is.....just.......like a tennis match.....
and it does roll around your head.

 

[nugzter]

thank you red bird for your ...details on the women and when they went missing.

I was shocked.....when...mrs. pc - was (thinking out loud?) or stating that Malia was searching for Melissa Barthelemy and he and Blue found....the bodies by the side of the road. and then...the next sentence does say the police descended upon Brewer's house.

I never put two and two together like that before.....I know the dogs and police were at Brewer's and GC's and CPH's - but i thought it was just because shannan was last seen there and they realized.....
something was .....not good....in the land of oak beach.

and they (the police) were grasping at straws......by going back to brewer's.

What is more perturbing than anything is - One of Shannan's drivers - said - that she has freaked out - and acted out - such as like at Oak Beach before....but....did THAT driver leave her stranded with no way to get home? in the middle of NO WHERE? and did she end up DEAD...in a marsh????? THAT time (um i know the answer is NO)

its a huge leap to go running into the night - and screaming someone is trying to kill you - and you are obviously freaked out - and then.......end up deceased.....SEPARATED from your PHONE and JEANS....... with the very same M.O. as the other 9 victims (plus the one baby) and the baby was dismembered by the way......I really do believe she met up with LISK. yes, i do. It's kind of hard not to think that. If not - then a really sick creepy copy cat...but....?????
oh this is.....just.......like a tennis match.....
and it does roll around your head.

Thats something new. I have never read a report about the baby being dismembered. Can you please send me a MSM link to that for my boards?