Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. What do you think?

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Samantha Spade said:
Mr. B,
Youd think a fixer would be of a sadistic nature by a description of the job reqirements alone. who says one cannot also be a serial killer.
Click to expand...

A fixer wouldn't be in business for long if he causes that much of unwanted attention. His job is to fix, not to drag all cops between the East Coast and the Midwest on his client's heels.
 
Fixers arent as smart as they used to be. not the low level street gang ones anyway.
 
Theforeigner said:
In the A&E "long Island Serial Killer" program there was an interview with Shannan Gilbert's driver Michael Pak.

In that interview it seems, IMO, that it was Michael Pak who talked to Joseph Brewer and made the arrangement.

And the fact that Shannan Gilbert didn´t know where she was at when she called 911, indeed indicate that it was Michael Pak that
made the arrengement with Joseph Brewer and NOT Shannan Gilbert.
After all, it WAS Michael Pak who drove the car that night and found his way to Joseph Brewer's house.

This is what Michael Pak said in the interview:

The Long Island Serial Killer. www.dore1.com - YouTube

Michael Pak interview at 2:33 :
" He (Joseph Brewer) said he was on Long Island, so I go; not so far...but then he offered 2 hours for 450$ and so, since there was no other appointments she (Shannan Gilbert) said ok lets go.
It took like a while to get there, it gets darker and darker, I was like; oh my God where are we going"

SO, IMO this indicate that is WAS Michael Pak who made the arrangement with Brewer and NOT Shannan Gilbert.
Click to expand...

The way it usually works is that the escort has a driver, and may or may not have a phone person who takes the calls. The escort may not specifically know where she is going, but usually agrees to go there. In this case Pak seems to have been playing both roles (it usually isn't the same person). It doesn't seem like he knew where he was going either, and was following the directions the car was giving.
 
fred&edna said:
Not the same thing, but just for the record... I still don't buy the paradoxical undressing theory in SG's case.
Click to expand...

Me neither. Besides, the proximity in time and space between paradoxical undressing and terminal burrowing is rather short, i.e., upon the onset of paradoxical undressing, the ability to walk 1/4 of a mile is hampered by the numbing of legs and feet thereby rendering patient rather incapable of walking on a paved surface, much less a prickly, marshy area for any real distance at all. Usually the terminal burrowing phenomenon following paradoxical undressing occurs minutes thereafter.

I'm with you: I do not think SG went to the Anchor Way side of the marsh, undressed paradoxically, and then walked through 1/4 mile of bramble--barefoot and mostly undressed, and ended up "burrowing" under a shrub 157 feet from the same Parkway that the other SK victims were found.

Is there evidence for this hypothesis of ours? Nah. Jest common sense.

Also, as someone astutely inquired here (was it you?): Why were the belongings found on the Anchor Way/Larboard Ct. side not waterlogged? Why was her purse, paper material (such as id in the purse), etc. not more damaged by rainwater? Furthermore, and this has more to do with the skeletal remains found by Ocean Parkway, did it appear as though the body was placed there, or completely decomposed there? Only SCPD knows that. This they know.

As for the question pertaining to the floating hyoid bone, folks, ALL bones in the skeleton are floating following decomp, technically speaking, right? All. the real question then is, if all the other bones were found, why was the hyoid bone the ONLY one missing? Why weren't other bones missing?

PB mentioned that SG possibly had the hyoid removed when SG had her jaw reconstructed. Could this be the case?
 
Adler said:
Me neither. Besides, the proximity in time and space between paradoxical undressing and terminal burrowing is rather short, i.e., upon the onset of paradoxical undressing, the ability to walk 1/4 of a mile is hampered by the numbing of legs and feet thereby rendering patient rather incapable of walking on a paved surface, much less a prickly, marshy area for any real distance at all. Usually the terminal burrowing phenomenon following paradoxical undressing occurs minutes thereafter.

I'm with you: I do not think SG went to the Anchor Way side of the marsh, undressed paradoxically, and then walked through 1/4 mile of bramble--barefoot and mostly undressed, and ended up "burrowing" under a shrub 157 feet from the same Parkway that the other SK victims were found.

Is there evidence for this hypothesis of ours? Nah. Jest common sense.

Also, as someone astutely inquired here (was it you?): Why were the belongings found on the Anchor Way/Larboard Ct. side not waterlogged? Why was her purse, paper material (such as id in the purse), etc. not more damaged by rainwater? Furthermore, and this has more to do with the skeletal remains found by Ocean Parkway, did it appear as though the body was placed there, or completely decomposed there? Only SCPD knows that. This they know.

As for the question pertaining to the floating hyoid bone, folks, ALL bones in the skeleton are floating following decomp, technically speaking, right? All. the real question then is, if all the other bones were found, why was the hyoid bone the ONLY one missing? Why weren't other bones missing?

PB mentioned that SG possibly had the hyoid removed when SG had her jaw reconstructed. Could this be the case?
Click to expand...

Hyoid bone: If she had still one in the first place, it would be the first bone to drift away since it is the only bone only connected with relative delicate tissue. Which makes it the only bone which CAN drift away. But hey, it's not the first time, we discuss the special features of the hyoid here, isn't it?
And please, would you link some material from where these times come, you mention about paradoxical undressing? You know, on the Mount Everest, Mallory's partner was found how many miles away from his pants? Was that two, three, or four? Can't remember exactly. And may I suggest, you look up that "burrowing" because it usually happens if the person has something to burrow in ...
And from where is your knowledge that the paper items weren't damaged? LE didn't publish that as far as I remember. Of course, I wonder still, what makes you think, SG's ID was a paper product in the first place, since in most places in the civilized world (I include NY state to that without further evidence) IDs are made from plastic material since the late 80s or early 90s. And that needs in nature easily 50 years to rot away.

Peter
 
Peter Brendt said:
Hyoid bone: If she had still one in the first place, it would be the first bone to drift away since it is the only bone only connected with relative delicate tissue. Which makes it the only bone which CAN drift away. But hey, it's not the first time, we discuss the special features of the hyoid here, isn't it?
And please, would you link some material from where these times come, you mention about paradoxical undressing? You know, on the Mount Everest, Mallory's partner was found how many miles away from his pants? Was that two, three, or four? Can't remember exactly. And may I suggest, you look up that "burrowing" because it usually happens if the person has something to burrow in ...
And from where is your knowledge that the paper items weren't damaged? LE didn't publish that as far as I remember. Of course, I wonder still, what makes you think, SG's ID was a paper product in the first place, since in most places in the civilized world (I include NY state to that without further evidence) IDs are made from plastic material since the late 80s or early 90s. And that needs in nature easily 50 years to rot away.

Peter
Click to expand...

Peter, see the second to the last sentence there? I may be no Beckett, but I must tell you that that little comma after your "think" changes the whole meaning of the concept. Yes, I do think. (No need for the comma afterward to imply otherwise.) I have noticed your propensity to place the erroneous comma between the verb and direct object only late at night.

Stop it. I say this only because I want to understand that which you mean to communicate. Others want that, too.

Here are the seven reasons to use commas:
1) between series or three or more items. cph, jb, and mp, for example.
2) between adjectives: The Websleuthers reading this are united in their quest for reasonable, total and sweet truth in the SG case.
3) after introductory words. For example: Oh, why can't we agree on one hypothesis in the SG case?
4) direct address. For example: PB, I'll make an effort to work on the subject/verb agreement if you double-check those commas after midnight.
5) misunderstanding (and here is where you need to look into it). If a reader has to look twice to try to figure out what you are saying, then recast it. In your case, take the comma out.

examples of where you insert the comma: Above the jet roared through the sky.
to
Above, the jet roared through the sky.

Take it out in, "What makes you think, SG's belongings . . ."

6) dates, addresses, geographical names
7) salutations in letters

If you place a comma and it's justification is not listed above, delete it.

Again, I'll agree to get the tense and subject/verb in alignment if you agree to work on those commas. I want to hear what you are sayin'.

Next Week: Tone
 
Peter Brendt said:
We talk the "months" from July 2007 till the September 2010, so the time between MBB disappeared till ALC disappeared. So, what? 38 months. And we talk salinity about that of the Dead Sea, which is much higher than Atlantic water can provide.
Click to expand...



Let me clarify. When I said "as we really talking years?" I meant the time frame between a kill and a placement. For example, the time between amber being killed and amber being placed is more than likel less than months. We know this because she dissappeared and and was found by police within a few months.
 
Peter Brendt said:
I assure you, there is no conspiracy between me, the illuminati, any Oak Beach residents or the owners of Websleuths.com. I also assure you, I was never involved in any 9/11 inside jobs nor preparations of alien invasions. Happy now?
Click to expand...

Hmm...now he's denying things he was never even accused of. Sounds suspicious to me. ;)
 
Adler said:
Me neither. Besides, the proximity in time and space between paradoxical undressing and terminal burrowing is rather short, i.e., upon the onset of paradoxical undressing, the ability to walk 1/4 of a mile is hampered by the numbing of legs and feet thereby rendering patient rather incapable of walking on a paved surface, much less a prickly, marshy area for any real distance at all. Usually the terminal burrowing phenomenon following paradoxical undressing occurs minutes thereafter.

I'm with you: I do not think SG went to the Anchor Way side of the marsh, undressed paradoxically, and then walked through 1/4 mile of bramble--barefoot and mostly undressed, and ended up "burrowing" under a shrub 157 feet from the same Parkway that the other SK victims were found.

Is there evidence for this hypothesis of ours? Nah. Jest common sense.

Also, as someone astutely inquired here (was it you?): Why were the belongings found on the Anchor Way/Larboard Ct. side not waterlogged? Why was her purse, paper material (such as id in the purse), etc. not more damaged by rainwater? Furthermore, and this has more to do with the skeletal remains found by Ocean Parkway, did it appear as though the body was placed there, or completely decomposed there? Only SCPD knows that. This they know.

As for the question pertaining to the floating hyoid bone, folks, ALL bones in the skeleton are floating following decomp, technically speaking, right? All. the real question then is, if all the other bones were found, why was the hyoid bone the ONLY one missing? Why weren't other bones missing?

PB mentioned that SG possibly had the hyoid removed when SG had her jaw reconstructed. Could this be the case?
Click to expand...

@Adler
I mentioned it - when i was asking WHY MP said to GC that shannan was "in trouble now"
when GC told PK that he had just called the cops.

i dont understand
shannan had been on the phone with 911 - which SENDS COPS - 911 - dispatches cops to locations.... so shannan had been on 911 to get cops to help her because she felt her life was in danger.

why then - was MP's reaction to GC - OH SHE's IN A LOT OF TROUBLE NOW

and while we are at it.
i always had an immediate reaction to MK - when
he said in the A&E special - when he went into the john's house and shannan was screaming - into the 911 phone call - HE;s TRYING TO KILL ME - and she mentioned MP - P's reaction was "OH - YOU'RE TRYING TO SET ME UP"
that was his gut reaction
what kind of reaction is THAT? a WRONG reaction if you're telling the truth.

If there was danger in that household and MP knew it - he could have took her away - and drove her home. He didn't do that. He LEFT the house - while she was screaming for her life.

and last but not least
SG had her hyoid bones....the attorney for the Gilbert family would have made it known that she was missing those bones due to AD breaking SG's jaw. The attorney is not going to play games with the public and say - SHE WAS MISSING HER HYOID BONES .... he's trying to HELP the Gilbert family - not play smoke and mirrors.

I also find it odd that the police READ the Gilbert family a transcript of the 911 call and did NOT play the call for the family or the lawyer. This will be addressed in the 48 hours to come on tv in 2 weeks. Yup - you read it here folks - the POLICE DID NOT PLAY the 911 call for Gilbert family and attorney - they READ THEM A TRANSCRIPT.

how bizarre is THAT!!!! All you cops out there.... how often does THAT happen?

@Peter Brendt - you asked (adler?) how adler knew that SG had paper identification on her that was pristine.
I'm so sorry - I was told that by SG's mom. yup- from the mother herself. I will stop posting and just read, as it seems
that some things....are private ...and I thought the public knew -- so - i apologize to MG if she reads this.

TKM
tkm
 
To Kill a Mockingbird said:
@Adler
I mentioned it - when i was asking WHY MP said to GC that shannan was "in trouble now"
when GC told PK that he had just called the cops.

i dont understand
shannan had been on the phone with 911 - which SENDS COPS - 911 - dispatches cops to locations.... so shannan had been on 911 to get cops to help her because she felt her life was in danger.

why then - was MP's reaction to GC - OH SHE's IN A LOT OF TROUBLE NOW

and while we are at it.
i always had an immediate reaction to MK - when
he said in the A&E special - when he went into the john's house and shannan was screaming - into the 911 phone call - HE;s TRYING TO KILL ME - and she mentioned MP - P's reaction was "OH - YOU'RE TRYING TO SET ME UP"
that was his gut reaction what kind of reaction is THAT? a WRONG reaction if you're telling the truth.


TKM
tkm
Click to expand...

Mockingbird-As far as why MP said to GC "Oh she's in alot of trouble now", I think TheForeigner explained it fairly well earlier. It's fairly certain that he knew that Shannan didn't know exactly where they were, and it was pitch black when they drove in to the house. It was mentioned in the 48 Hours show that the 911 dispatcher couldn't determine exactly where Shannan was calling from. There was no address given. IIRC she said she was at Jones Beach. So when GC told him he'd called 911, MP knew that the cops were on his way. I'm thinking like The Foreigner that it was probably just cut and dried. Shannan was involved in an illegal scene and she'd be in trouble if the cops came. So would MP, and he wasn't pleased about that. Obviously there were many, many details about this period after she made the 911 call that are very confusing and bizarre. I do agree with you that the MP interview was odd, the guy had quite a casual attitude and didn't seem to be on the up and up. "Oh, you're trying to set me up" was sort of an odd statement from someone who was theoretically trying to "help" her. Perhaps they were arguing about the money earlier (if in fact, they were paid...not even sure on that-maybe JB wasn't willing to pay her). As far as anything sinister involving MP, if he in fact wanted to harm/silence Shannan after she ran from GC's, he knew he had very little time. Personally, I don't think he had anything to do with her death, with the cops coming so soon even he had to realize that he didn't have enough time to kill her and make an escape. He IS guilty of just leaving poor Shannan at the mercy of the elements and/or whoever wanted to kill her. Very pathetic...Such a mystery.

MOO
 
alaskanblue said:
Mockingbird-As far as why MP said to GC "Oh she's in alot of trouble now", I think TheForeigner explained it fairly well earlier. It's fairly certain that he knew that Shannan didn't know exactly where they were, and it was pitch black when they drove in to the house. It was mentioned in the 48 Hours show that the 911 dispatcher couldn't determine exactly where Shannan was calling from. There was no address given. IIRC she said she was at Jones Beach. So when GC told him he'd called 911, MP knew that the cops were on his way. I'm thinking like The Foreigner that it was probably just cut and dried. Shannan was involved in an illegal scene and she'd be in trouble if the cops came. So would MP, and he wasn't pleased about that. Obviously there were many, many details about this period after she made the 911 call that are very confusing and bizarre. I do agree with you that the MP interview was odd, the guy had quite a casual attitude and didn't seem to be on the up and up. "Oh, you're trying to set me up" was sort of an odd statement from someone who was theoretically trying to "help" her. Perhaps they were arguing about the money earlier (if in fact, they were paid...not even sure on that-maybe JB wasn't willing to pay her). As far as anything sinister involving MP, if he in fact wanted to harm/silence Shannan after she ran from GC's, he knew he had very little time. Personally, I don't think he had anything to do with her death, with the cops coming so soon even he had to realize that he didn't have enough time to kill her and make an escape. He IS guilty of just leaving poor Shannan at the mercy of the elements and/or whoever wanted to kill her. Very pathetic...Such a mystery.

MOO
Click to expand...

ditto.
 
Adler said:
Peter, see the second to the last sentence there? I may be no Beckett, but I must tell you that that little comma after your "think" changes the whole meaning of the concept. Yes, I do think. (No need for the comma afterward to imply otherwise.) I have noticed your propensity to place the erroneous comma between the verb and direct object only late at night.

Stop it. I say this only because I want to understand that which you mean to communicate. Others want that, too.

Here are the seven reasons to use commas:
1) between series or three or more items. cph, jb, and mp, for example.
2) between adjectives: The Websleuthers reading this are united in their quest for reasonable, total and sweet truth in the SG case.
3) after introductory words. For example: Oh, why can't we agree on one hypothesis in the SG case?
4) direct address. For example: PB, I'll make an effort to work on the subject/verb agreement if you double-check those commas after midnight.
5) misunderstanding (and here is where you need to look into it). If a reader has to look twice to try to figure out what you are saying, then recast it. In your case, take the comma out.

examples of where you insert the comma: Above the jet roared through the sky.
to
Above, the jet roared through the sky.

Take it out in, "What makes you think, SG's belongings . . ."

6) dates, addresses, geographical names
7) salutations in letters

If you place a comma and it's justification is not listed above, delete it.

Again, I'll agree to get the tense and subject/verb in alignment if you agree to work on those commas. I want to hear what you are sayin'.

Next Week: Tone
Click to expand...

Okay, first I apologize to be sometimes tired after midnight. Second, I apologize to speak three languages and bits of pieces of some more, which essentially causes occasional grammatical and even vocabulary mess-ups. I'm sorry for that. How many languages do you speak exactly?
Otherwise: You avoided carefully to comment on the arguments of the case and went all language teacher on me, which makes me think, this is maybe some kind of evasion maneuver?

Peter
 
BKS said:
I agree and also want to add that JB refused to pay her. Which in effect he refused to pay Pak as well.
Click to expand...

And who said that? Pak? Or SG? I so would like to see a link to that, because if there isn't, this is the assumption Brewer has to be the killer based on the assumption that he didn't want to pay based on the assumption he is the killer and therefore ...
 
To Kill a Mockingbird said:
@Adler
@Peter Brendt - you asked (adler?) how adler knew that SG had paper identification on her that was pristine.
I'm so sorry - I was told that by SG's mom. yup- from the mother herself. I will stop posting and just read, as it seems
that some things....are private ...and I thought the public knew -- so - i apologize to MG if she reads this.

TKM
tkm
Click to expand...

So you are in permanent contact with the family?
 
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