Common sense tells us SG died of homicide, accident, or natural causes. There is absolutey no proof that SG was suicidal! None.
On the contrary, there is no proof that she wasn't suicidal but there are mounds of proof that she was at high risk for suicide and that she repeatedly put herself in harm's way. Her intentional reckless behavior, refusal to take her bi-polar medication, her extreme mood swings, excessive drug & alcohol use, her tendencies to act anxious as well as agitated... these are all warning signs & risk factors. As I mentioned in my previous post, people with bi-polar disorder are on the top of the high risk for suicide list along with people with depression. Drug abusers are 2nd on the list. The two combined can be a lethal combination for suicide. Add to that the high risk associated with those who have been in foster care along with the long list I just gave you and there is your evidence.
Like I said, I am not saying that she committed suicide. Just pointing out that you cannot rule it out because there is more evidence pointing towards suicide than any other cause of death.
On the contrary, there is no proof that she wasn't suicidal but there are mounds of proof that she was at high risk for suicide and that she repeatedly put herself in harm's way. Her intentional reckless behavior, refusal to take her bi-polar medication, her extreme mood swings, excessive drug & alcohol use, her tendencies to act anxious as well as agitated... these are all warning signs & risk factors. As I mentioned in my previous post, people with bi-polar disorder are on the top of the high risk for suicide list along with people with depression. Drug abusers are 2nd on the list. The two combined can be a lethal combination for suicide. Add to that the high risk associated with those who have been in foster care along with the long list I just gave you and there is your evidence.
Like I said, I am not saying that she committed suicide. Just pointing out that you cannot rule it out because there is more evidence pointing towards suicide than any other cause of death.
RE: BBM
How many suicide cases involve a 911 call with cries of "they are trying to kill me"? The call negates the bipolar, drug use, foster child mix... imo
Seriously, suicide?! No way!
I agree that rational thinking makes the possibility of suicide unlikely. However, when it comes to the actions of chronic drug users or people with a history of mental illness, rational thinking is not applicable. In this case, we have a victim with a drug addiction along with a mental disorder that is known to be one of the leading factors that causes suicide (incidentally, right behind depression & bipolar disorder, substance abuse is the 2nd leading factor attributed to suicide). Time spent in foster care along with the inability to leave an abusive relationship are also on the list of risk factors.
With the ME stating that her cause of death cannot be determined, anything is possible. There is no proof that can rule out the possibilty that SG completely lost her mind that evening and decided to overdose on drugs. Before you knock this possibility you should be aware that there have been plenty of cases of bi-polar drug addicts committing suicide after experiencing extreme paranoia. It's fairly difficult for us to understand this possibility using rational thought & common sense. It also seems sureal to envision any theory where we are asked to accept that SG was not murdered given the discovery of all of the other victims found nearby.
I know this is probably asking too much of anyone to consider.
All I can say is that a suicidal rampage cannot be ruled out because there is not a shred of evidence that points away from it. There are actually more pieces to the puzzle that fit this possibility than any other. For instance, this would explain why she was running around the swampy bramble with no pants on (as well as why she left her purse, jacket and cell phone behind).
This isn't my theory on what happened (although now that I am thinking it through, it does seem more likely than the crazy one-legged doctor theory). I am just simply pointing out that out of the five legal definitions of causes of death (as pointed out by BKS), we cannot make the assumption that suicide is off the table just like we cannot take "Accident" or "Homicide" off the table.
On the same line of thinking, I have a question;
If a woman's low self-esteme or poor judgement placed her in an extremely dangerous & reckless situation and then she dies as a result of her lack of regard for her own safety (reckless self-endangerment), is that considered suicide or accidentally killing oneself?
You would be surprised. But that's not the point. Can you prove, by hard evidence, it wasn't suicide? This is a logic exercise: You can't prove a thing, but you assume. It shows the problem. As long as the ME has no COD, we can only profile the behavior, which, depending on experience, knowledge of human behavior and personal believes and theories, will lead us to different results.
Peter
:waitasec:
You can do all the exercising you'd like, PB... but, it makes me sweaty so I don't wanna'Yes, of course you are correct in that I made an assumption, but I used logic... it's what I call "logical" common sense. I know you have that teaching/lecture/professor background (which I respect) do we really need a flowchart, a pie chart, or an equation?
** I feel an assignment on Schrodinger's cat is gonna be next!
No Offense, it's total nonsense what you're shoveling.....ones actions explains the intent, the motive.....I can not even believe I read such nonsense.
Of course that can be ruled out.....OMG.....this is why this place is getting pretty wacky....
the Movie before hand can also set a stage to ones behavior, when dealing with a time frame.....The day before charting each hour...or even clumping a week long Chart.....From hour to hour can achieve setting a base line & one gets a real good Idea of SG state of being...stressors, relationship issues, need for money...I FEEL MP did more of the trolling because while they were at the show.....wasn't MP posting on a website & Craigs list.....They do earn there income from SG....
It's called charting behaviors to get a baseline on them....So you are all creating a shameful bunch of nonsense IMO....
I really read a lot of nonsense crap that is not used in the field....I just think it is like when a drug company conducts a research group using a controlled group insuring the outcome they wanted....
But charting behaviors are realistic, It actually gives a true baseline for each behavior. So you can focus on the whole picture of a client......
Really not complicated....I do not buy your personal opinion in regards to different theories....it means one is using personal opinions......
When you go by a structured criteria for charting behaviors......It's very different than what you people SEEM to BE Discussing....In psychology....it's about the Approach the Professional uses to determine why a behavior is caused.
Freud, BF Skinner, Jung....than Cognitive Behavioral Therapies, Dialectical Behavioral Therapies...etc
It's about finding what works & clinical structured paperwork & documentation will tell you the state of the individual & you will know the percentages of each outcome....
YOU WILL KNOW THE:
Antecedents
Precursors
Life Interfering Behavior
Aggression/SIB
And exactly how long the recovery time is for the person after onset of target behavior
This is the area that is focused on By Real Behavioral Specialists
So we know when to interviene & what is the best way to approach this, even what type of voice, Firm but Calm, Gave 3 controlled choices so the client doesn't feel he is being controlled...telling someone what they are going to do maintains anger, aggressiveness....so giving 3 controlled choices is a great tool. reminding a client of past event (if it has worked in the past).
AFter every event a detailed behavioral report is preformed:
The Day of the week,
What was the person doing before target behavior
What were the weather Conditions
The Enviromental Conditions
What did the client say
Who was around during behavior
Who did what to who
So just from what was public ......suicide is ruled Out IMO
People who REALLY work with those who have suicidal thoughts, I have not ever read of 1 case of that happing in all within an hour. Impossible
Some target specific people, specific look
There is so much I feel they already know & this board throws unbelievable nonsense
I do not even have to base line & chart to tell you THERE WAS NO WAY SG WAS GOING TO TAKE HER OWN LIKE EVER That Night>
I also would wonder about the person who wrote that & I would be more concerned that they are projecting & if they were not than I would think that they are trying to help the SK get away with MURDER.......That's my OPINION..... I do not know who you are but I do know that you are off by Magnitudes at time. So I question your up to date knowledge base .......So you have a self serving agenda my friend....
My logic professor was an algorithm prodigy, but he couldnt find his way out of a paper bag.
I get the argument from a logic's class standpoint, but this is the real deal. we have shannan's family and friends reading here. you know the chances of shannan committing suicide that night are between slim and none. we will do less damage discussing whether or not the sun will come up tomorrow, because there is a possibility it wont. i hated that pompous *advertiser censored*, but i refused to drop his class.
Money gets transfered upon arrival....is that where they went for 15 minutes....Money up front for hours paid & he RAN OVER REmember???? They always get money up front lets remember the 3 talk & maybe that was the plan as MP would have been arrested & they agreed to that story.
FRANKLY they are all liars...Not one word that comes out of any of there mouths.....should be repeated as facts. THE Dead victims deserve that much till the truth comes out....
That is old news Dormer said shannan agreed on price & what he wanted than monety amount. These are seasoned people I think Shannan wanted the money for the extra time....that he made excuses about...JMO
I do not believe Possible sadistic Serial Killers who torture young Girls all the same type of victims for that matter....Why go on a edge to make statements that were proven to be false over a year ago...???
I agree that rational thinking makes the possibility of suicide unlikely. However, when it comes to the actions of chronic drug users or people with a history of mental illness, rational thinking is not applicable. In this case, we have a victim with a drug addiction along with a mental disorder that is known to be one of the leading factors that causes suicide (incidentally, right behind depression & bipolar disorder, substance abuse is the 2nd leading factor attributed to suicide). Time spent in foster care along with the inability to leave an abusive relationship are also on the list of risk factors.
With the ME stating that her cause of death cannot be determined, anything is possible. There is no proof that can rule out the possibilty that SG completely lost her mind that evening and decided to overdose on drugs. Before you knock this possibility you should be aware that there have been plenty of cases of bi-polar drug addicts committing suicide after experiencing extreme paranoia. It's fairly difficult for us to understand this possibility using rational thought & common sense. It also seems sureal to envision any theory where we are asked to accept that SG was not murdered given the discovery of all of the other victims found nearby.
I know this is probably asking too much of anyone to consider.
All I can say is that a suicidal rampage cannot be ruled out because there is not a shred of evidence that points away from it. There are actually more pieces to the puzzle that fit this possibility than any other. For instance, this would explain why she was running around the swampy bramble with no pants on (as well as why she left her purse, jacket and cell phone behind).
This isn't my theory on what happened (although now that I am thinking it through, it does seem more likely than the crazy one-legged doctor theory). I am just simply pointing out that out of the five legal definitions of causes of death (as pointed out by BKS), we cannot make the assumption that suicide is off the table just like we cannot take "Accident" or "Homicide" off the table.
On the same line of thinking, I have a question;
If a woman's low self-esteme or poor judgement placed her in an extremely dangerous & reckless situation and then she dies as a result of her lack of regard for her own safety (reckless self-endangerment), is that considered suicide or accidentally killing oneself?
like I said, I am not saying that she committed suicide. Just pointing out that you cannot rule it out because there is more evidence pointing towards suicide than any other cause of death.
sounds like someone who has their own motives, your analysis defies rationality.