Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #2

[steveP120]

No-body cases are always more difficult than murder cases with a body, but just skimming the successful no-body prosecutions, they seem to have one or more of the following to have a chance of conviction.

1. A crime scene where the murder occurred (but the body was removed from), say with blood.

2. A person the victim was last seen alive with.

3. Confessions (often disputed or claimed coerced)

4. Threats against the victim (I'll kill my ex)

5. A history of violence against the victim (this time he not only beat her but killed her) or other victims.

6. A financial motive such as killing someone for the insurance.

Lloyd may or many not have confessed to a fellow inmate (jail house snitch) but even if he did, it could have been jailhouse bragging, "I'm a murderer."

Lloyd (assuming he is the long-hair man) looked at the girls at Wheaton Plaza long enough for a witness to make a sketch of him, but there has been no evidence that he talked to the girls after that. It's my favorite theory that Lloyd may have followed the girls or randomly run into the girls since they both took the same walking route, but there is no evidence to support this. There is some evidence that the girls were walking down Drumm Ave alone.

 

[Owutatangledweb]

BBM There is a lot of rock just below the surface on the mountain. Digging a hole deep enough to bury a car would require strong equipment and probably some dynamite!

One thing we know for sure in this case is that LE is talking a lot about there being coverups. I suspect part of the alleged coverups may be surrounding the alledged Chrysler New Yorker they are looking for. In one of the articles I read about the car which I linked in a previous post, LE stated something to the effect that it may have been stored in a shed or barn and been moved. . I am speculating that they believe it was moved after this investigation kickstarted again in the last few years. I think they may be looking for witnesses that are recent who may know something about that car being recently moved, particularly Welch family members to come forward under threat of indictment for any coverup. I think LE has either some direct knowledge that is was moved or have some suspicion that it was moved.

Thank you for pointing out the rocky terrain and subsoil. I guess a large fire for the car can't be ruled out either though. And charred remains of car buried? Is that a possibility? Or parts scrapped and taken off mountain? Or parted dumped in a lake or pond up there? Let's face it, when it comes right down to it LE knows they need corroborating evidence in this case. if they have some evidence that the car was moved after the investigation kickstarted again, that's some circumstantial evidence; if they have evidence that the car was destroyed after the investigation kickstarted again, then that's some stronger cicumstantial evidence; if they find the car, it's possible they could recover some direct evidence (DNA) . I don't know if the Chrysler awareness came from a State database or if LE gained some knowledge about that car from a relative, but it could be the latter. Why do they think it was in a barn or shed and why do they think it may have been moved? Anyway you slice it, that car, in a case where there are no bodies, is important as some kind of evidence if it was moved recently.

JMO

 

[Roselvr]

One thing we know for sure in this case is that LE is talking a lot about there being coverups. I suspect part of the alleged coverups may be surrounding the alledged Chrysler New Yorker they are looking for. In one of the articles I read about the car which I linked in a previous post, LE stated something to the effect that it may have been stored in a shed or barn and been moved. . I am speculating that they believe it was moved after this investigation kickstarted again in the last few years. I think they may be looking for witnesses that are recent who may know something about that car being recently moved, particularly Welch family members to come forward under threat of indictment for any coverup. I think LE has either some direct knowledge that is was moved or have some suspicion that it was moved.

Thank you for pointing out the rocky terrain and subsoil. I guess a large fire for the car can't be ruled out either though. And charred remains of car buried? Is that a possibility? Or parts scrapped and taken off mountain? Or parted dumped in a lake or pond up there? Let's face it, when it comes right down to it LE knows they need corroborating evidence in this case. if they have some evidence that the car was moved after the investigation kickstarted again, that's some circumstantial evidence; if they have evidence that the car was destroyed after the investigation kickstarted again, then that's some stronger cicumstantial evidence; if they find the car, it's possible they could recover some direct evidence (DNA) . I don't know if the Chrysler awareness came from a State database or if LE gained some knowledge about that car from a relative, but it could be the latter. Why do they think it was in a barn or shed and why do they think it may have been moved? Anyway you slice it, that car, in a case where there are no bodies, is important as some kind of evidence if it was moved recently.

JMO

Highly doubt there is DNA in the car still. They know LE has been looking into this the last few years; I assume someone would have taken bleach to the seats.

 

[steveP120]

Highly doubt there is DNA in the car still. They know LE has been looking into this the last few years; I assume someone would have taken bleach to the seats.

I highly doubt that there is any car (used to transport bloody duffel bags) left to test just by the fact that there are few cars from 1975 still around either on the road or in garages or in junkyards.

Even if the car was brand new in 1975, that is 40 years ago. How many cars that old are still around? And the car was likely not brand new in 1975, so add a few years to the car's life, which likely expired decades ago.

 

[Historydetective63]

Here is more information about the cars they are looking for and what LE thinks.

http://www.wset.com/story/28199815/...ormation-on-car-in-lyon-sisters-disappearance

Thanks, hopefully the description will jog some memories. When LLW showed up unannounced on Taylor's Mountain in the Spring of 1975 with bloody duffle bags, does anybody remember what kind and color of car he showed up in? Seems to me that a very large, white, 4 door, Chrysler New Yorker would stick out like a sore thumb up there in that area.

 

[steveP120]

Thanks, hopefully the description will jog some memories. When LLW showed up unannounced on Taylor's Mountain in the Spring of 1975 with bloody duffle bags, does anybody remember what kind and color of car he showed up in? Seems to me that a very large, white, 4 door, Chrysler New Yorker would stick out like a sore thumb up there in that area.

Unless Lloyd randomly stole the car off the street, I would hope the police have identified the owner from the limited number of family and friends who would lend Lloyd a car. Lloyd never had a drivers licence so he could not have rented a car even if he had the money which is doubtful.

I always thought the police claiming to be close to finding the car was more a police bluff to get a confession. "Hey Lloyd, we just found the car and are running DNA analysis on it; would you like to change your story." At this point many suspects would change their story to claim self defense, an accident, blame someone else or make a full confession.

Even if the car has long been destroyed, some of the tools such as a lug wrench or something else might have been saved from the trunk and picked up some blood. Men of Lloyds or his uncle's generation rarely throw anything away; I still have tools from my first car in the 1970s. I always wondered what the tools were that the police not only tested once for DNA, but later returned to the uncle and then had to go back with a second search warrant for further DNA testing.

 

[steveP120]

Seems to me that a very large, white, 4 door, Chrysler New Yorker would stick out like a sore thumb up there in that area.

Because Lloyd was only 18, jobless and nearly homeless in 1975 and he never had a drivers license, Lloyd showing up at in any nice car would cause relatives to wonder how Lloyd got the car.

 

[steveP120]

Be patient, all your questions will be answered in due time.

Some of what you hear today is pure speculation and the rest is exaggeration.

Certain elements of truth in this case have been ignored, denied or forgotten by the MCP.

The MCP have a 40-year record of failed investigations, with wrongful actuations of multiple possible perpetrators, the dismissal of key eyewitness reports between March 25th to April 7th and a 30-year failure to follow-up because of their instance that the case remain in MCP control.

I have been to Taylors Mountain to see the ‘site’ of interest. It’s a steep climb on a scrapped-out mountain-logging road for anyone. It gets as frigid as the Devil's breath at sundown! There is nothing there that will solve this murder case but only add to the ‘futility’ of solving this case

As a Manassas VA, April 7th 1975, eyewitness, I’ve given the Bedford Co VA Sheriff everything I know or believe relevant to solving this case.

The Bedford Co VA Commonwealth Attorney now needs to decide if he can truly risk a ‘high-profile’ national exposure trial based solely on the MCP’s rush-to-solve investigation of the past 2-years.

I hope he is wise enough to ask for a 3rd-party independent review by the AIOSCC of what he's been handed.

Because of the strident tone of this post, I first overlooked it.

On second reading, I noticed that this person claims to be "a Manassas VA, April 7th 1975, eyewitness."

I have no idea if the person posting this is telling the truth or an imposter/troll, but there is "a Manassas VA, April 7th 1975, eyewitness" who firmly believes he saw the two girls alive in the back of a station wagon that day.

I recall reading a newspaper article on the witness, who for decades was convinced or haunted by the siting of two girls who may or may not have been the Lyon sisters with an older man too old to be Lloyd. But I can't find the link at the moment.

There is a wide and established literature on the mistakes eyewitness can and do often make. With tens of thousands or people looking for the Lyon sisters in 1975, just the numbers make sure that there would have been false but honestly given reports by people who think they saw the girls.

However, the current police theory, while vague, is contradicted by the Manassas VA witness and likely the witnesses claiming to have seen the sisters walking down Drumm Ave.

 

[beachlvr0810]

The link is to a news story where the cousin of Lloyd Welch denies involvement in Lyon's sisters disappearance. I posted the interview with Henry Parker below, who clearly states he did not see any bodies. If he stayed at the fire for any length of time, enough for the duffel bags to burn off, and did not see any bodies, law enforcement has a huge problem with the case. If he left after one minute, because Lloyd was smart enough to ask him to leave, there could have been bodies in the duffel bags. A reporter should have asked how long he was there and if he saw the duffel bags burn. The old hamburger/meat story is not that bad if Lloyd or his uncle, a Giant Food Security Guard were taking meat from the grocery store. It would be theft if the meat was not thrown out. If the food was thrown out, it's not a criminal act to steal from a garbage can or dumpster, but a career-ending violation of Giant Food's policy for a Giant Food employee.

Henry Parker is Lloyd Welch's cousin.

He lived on Taylor's Mountain in 1975. And investigators say he confirmed that Welch burned two duffel bags when he visited the family's property.

We sat down with Parker in his Roanoke home Thursday morning. He wouldn't speak to us on camera, but he denied any involvement in the crimes that Lloyd Welch is accused of committing.

He told me he remembered Lloyd with a bandana on his head, coming to the family's home on Taylor's Mountain.

"I helped him throw something on the fire," Parker said, "but I didn't know what was in it."

"I don't know what was in the bags, never seen no kids. I don't know what happened to those kids."

"If I knew that was happening," Parker added, "I would have turned him in myself, because I couldn't do nothing to no babies like that."

If Lizzie told cousin Henry to help Jr. get the duffle bags out of the car, then that's what Henry did. He wouldn't disobey his mama and I believe with all my heart that cousin Henry did not know what was in those duffle bags. I don't believe ANY of them knew what Jr. had just gotten them all involved in.

 

[beachlvr0810]

One thing we know for sure in this case is that LE is talking a lot about there being coverups. I suspect part of the alleged coverups may be surrounding the alledged Chrysler New Yorker they are looking for. In one of the articles I read about the car which I linked in a previous post, LE stated something to the effect that it may have been stored in a shed or barn and been moved. . I am speculating that they believe it was moved after this investigation kickstarted again in the last few years. I think they may be looking for witnesses that are recent who may know something about that car being recently moved, particularly Welch family members to come forward under threat of indictment for any coverup. I think LE has either some direct knowledge that is was moved or have some suspicion that it was moved.

Thank you for pointing out the rocky terrain and subsoil. I guess a large fire for the car can't be ruled out either though. And charred remains of car buried? Is that a possibility? Or parts scrapped and taken off mountain? Or parted dumped in a lake or pond up there? Let's face it, when it comes right down to it LE knows they need corroborating evidence in this case. if they have some evidence that the car was moved after the investigation kickstarted again, that's some circumstantial evidence; if they have evidence that the car was destroyed after the investigation kickstarted again, then that's some stronger cicumstantial evidence; if they find the car, it's possible they could recover some direct evidence (DNA) . I don't know if the Chrysler awareness came from a State database or if LE gained some knowledge about that car from a relative, but it could be the latter. Why do they think it was in a barn or shed and why do they think it may have been moved? Anyway you slice it, that car, in a case where there are no bodies, is important as some kind of evidence if it was moved recently.

JMO

There aren't any lakes on the mountain but there are some small ponds. I don't know how many pond were on the mountain 40 years ago, but I doubt there would be any car parts in them. If somebody wanted to get rid of a car quickly, they would take it to Montvale to the Montvale Shredder and sell it for scrap. I was told that investigators had already gone up to the Shredder and talked to them about any records they might have but all those old records were destroyed.

If Jr. wanted to get rid of all evidence including the car, I just don't think he would have asked somebody on Taylor's Mountain to store it in a barn for him. And burning a car would definitely attract too much attention and I can't think of any place where it could be set on fire without taking a chance of setting half the mountain on fire.

If yall want to see what the terrain on Taylor's Mountain really looks like, there are some videos on my Taylor's Mountain Descendents' Facebook page that will show you.

 

[Historydetective63]

I think such things as Luminol can illuminate blood stains not visible t the naked eye, including ones cleaned with bleach.

 

[Historydetective63]

If Lizzie told cousin Henry to help Jr. get the duffle bags out of the car, then that's what Henry did. He wouldn't disobey his mama and I believe with all my heart that cousin Henry did not know what was in those duffle bags. I don't believe ANY of them knew what Jr. had just gotten them all involved in.

Perhaps, but I just don't believe that LLW pulled this horrendous crime off by himself! I believe he had help from the beginning when the two little girls' were kidnapped, to the sexual assaults, to the murders, and then to borrowing a vehicle to transport their bodies to Thaxton, VA, to his relatives' property for the purpose of disposal and an attempt to destroy the evidence. It's beginning to look like he had all sorts of help to do this.

 

[Historydetective63]

Because Lloyd was only 18, jobless and nearly homeless in 1975 and he never had a drivers license, Lloyd showing up at in any nice car would cause relatives to wonder how Lloyd got the car.

Or they would recognize the car as belonging to another one of their relatives who may have lived in Maryland. Whatever car Lloyd Welch showed up in had to have been either borrowed from someone or he stole it.

 

[beachlvr0810]

Perhaps, but I just don't believe that LLW pulled this horrendous crime off by himself! I believe he had help from the beginning when the two little girls' were kidnapped, to the sexual assaults, to the murders, and then to borrowing a vehicle to transport their bodies to Thaxton, VA, to his relatives' property for the purpose of disposal and an attempt to destroy the evidence. It's beginning to look like he had all sorts of help to do this.

And that very well may be true that he had help, but Lizzie, Connie and Henry didn't help him knowingly.

 

[TedMac]

There aren't any lakes on the mountain but there are some small ponds. I don't know how many pond were on the mountain 40 years ago, but I doubt there would be any car parts in them. If somebody wanted to get rid of a car quickly, they would take it to Montvale to the Montvale Shredder and sell it for scrap. I was told that investigators had already gone up to the Shredder and talked to them about any records they might have but all those old records were destroyed.

If Jr. wanted to get rid of all evidence including the car, I just don't think he would have asked somebody on Taylor's Mountain to store it in a barn for him. And burning a car would definitely attract too much attention and I can't think of any place where it could be set on fire without taking a chance of setting half the mountain on fire.

If yall want to see what the terrain on Taylor's Mountain really looks like, there are some videos on my Taylor's Mountain Descendents' Facebook page that will show you.

In all likelihood, Jr. didn't own a car in 1975. So, he either stole or borrowed it from someone in Maryland. If he borrowed it from a relative or a friend, he probably returned to them in MD. If that is the case, then the car probably was only in Bedford for as long as Jr. was there.

My point is the vehicle probably is junk (most cars that were being driven in 1975 are not operable today) and is either in pieces, crushed into a small heap or in a junkyard in MD. Regardless of its fate, it probably is not in VA. MOO.

 

[gregjrichards]

Because of the strident tone of this post, I first overlooked it.

On second reading, I noticed that this person claims to be "a Manassas VA, April 7th 1975, eyewitness."

I have no idea if the person posting this is telling the truth or an imposter/troll, but there is "a Manassas VA, April 7th 1975, eyewitness" who firmly believes he saw the two girls alive in the back of a station wagon that day.

I recall reading a newspaper article on the witness, who for decades was convinced or haunted by the siting of two girls who may or may not have been the Lyon sisters with an older man too old to be Lloyd. But I can't find the link at the moment.

There is a wide and established literature on the mistakes eyewitness can and do often make. With tens of thousands or people looking for the Lyon sisters in 1975, just the numbers make sure that there would have been false but honestly given reports by people who think they saw the girls.

However, the current police theory, while vague, is contradicted by the Manassas VA witness and likely the witnesses claiming to have seen the sisters walking down Drumm Ave.

Mdietz47 is the eye witness you are referring to.

"Cary, NC - A North Carolina man who lived in Northern Virginia in 1975 believes he saw Sheila Lyon about two weeks after she and her sister Katherine disappeared.

Marshall Dietz said in a phone interview Friday he was driving to work the morning of April 7, 1975 when he pulled up beside a station wagon at a stoplight. Dietz said he saw a girl peek out a passenger side window from the backseat.

"I saw her eyes, gold, round, metal glasses and real blue eyes down to about the middle of her nose,” said Dietz. “The driver's head moved and I looked over to see him looking in his mirror. He stepped on it. It was a red light. He stepped on it, made a right hand turn and took off down the street. I said my God that was Sheila Lyon."

Dietz said he called police as soon as he got to work and that he retold his story when a detective called him in 2005.

Montgomery County Police said in an email Thursday they can't rule out Dietz's sighting and that his story has been consistent."

http://www.wset.com/story/27454017/nc-man-believes-he-saw-sheila-lyon-in-station-wagon

 

[Roselvr]

I have not followed the case; someone had mentioned Lloyd on Cali's FB page because of the station wagon; so I read a few things, including a FB post MD had made.

There are many cars still around from the 60's & early 70's. Lots of people hoarded cars, including my father. Cars back then were not much. Lloyd could have bought it and not registered or insured it.

 

[steveP120]

I have not followed the case; someone had mentioned Lloyd on Cali's FB page because of the station wagon; so I read a few things, including a FB post MD had made.

There are many cars still around from the 60's & early 70's. Lots of people hoarded cars, including my father. Cars back then were not much. Lloyd could have bought it and not registered or insured it.

It's possible, but unlikely that Lloyd could have scraped up a few hundred dollars in 1975 to buy a car, and failed to register it, driving on stolen/expired plates to avoid paying insurance, not to mention his problem with the lack of a drivers license.

However I doubt that Lloyd could have done this with his friends or family noticing. Lloyd was known to walk everywhere.

While "many" cars from the 60s and 70s are still around, many times more cars from the 60s and 70s are not around any more.

Despite the long odds of any one car that was on the road in 1975 still being around, the trunk where the bloody duffel bags were stored would be a great source of DNA evidence. It was not until a few decades later in the 1990s that criminals had to worry about DNA evidence, so if the car was disposed of say before 1995, it would not occur to a criminal to remove all traces of DNA.

Lloyd was even too cheap to throw away his "bloody" (either hamburger stains or human blood) clothing and tried to have them cleaned, so I doubt he or anyone in that day would throw out an entire car to hide evidence when DNA evidence was unknown.

 

[Rhett]

Jr. may very well have had help getting them in the car and away from the mall. His stepmother said that he and his girlfriend were at the mall applying for jobs. Maybe the girlfriend helped him. Think Karla Homolka.

 

[WaynezWorld]

Unless someone can actually say, "I saw Lloyd with the sisters" the above statements is worthless as evidence.

First Lloyd was not running from the police but talking to the police one week after the abduction, either trying to falsely claim a reward or doing his civic duty.

Secondly, the police were never looking for Lloyd, so technically Lloyd was never on the run. Lloyd may have thought the police were looking for him for a few days, but it's just as likely Lloyd IF guilty of murder, resumed his normal routine except for the time it took of to dispose the bodies.

Third, the time frame, "in 1975" could have been days or months after the abduction.

Fourth, "talk" covers speculation, much of what is done here.

It's really a vaguely worded statement that could cover anything from, John Doe Welch talked to Lloyd one day after the abduction and Lloyd was accompanied by the two living sisters, to after Lloyd showed up with two duffel bags and we read the Lyon sisters story in the newspaper, we speculated that Lloyd had something to do with it.

You are right, I think the word "evidence" I used is not the right choice. I think I consider these items "possible revelations"..

I think there are probably at least two guilty parties and an at least one accessory after the fact. I find it completely bizarre that someone who would a relative to "burn some bloody duffle bags" and the relative would participate without questioning.


It is important that LLW (allegedly) began to talk first to the detectives- that he mentioned the burning. If GJ witnesses mentioned burning without prompting, I think that could be worth something.

I may be reading a little much into this, but with a confession, a statement from LE that says LLW knew facts not known to the public- I am thinking they have their man. I am anticipating the release of the full indictment and the evidence discovery. I think the meat is coming soon.