Sheri Coleman, sons Garett and Gavin murdered 5-5-09, Columbia, IL. Pt7
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PrayersForMaura
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Maybe there were blood spots on it?
CC had scratch marks on his arm, maybe Garrett put up a fight and scratched CC, drawing blood?
OR ... maybe it was discharge they were hoping to get samples of?
When my sister passed away last year, she choked in her sleep due to asthma and couldn't breathe. She had regurgitated some pretty foul liquid after she died. Perhaps little Garrett did too and they were just trying to get some sort of sample from it.
Sorry to be so gross
fran
Former Member
What's mind-boggling is she brags about taking in $8 MILLION a MONTH, AND brags about the portion of that donated for charitable work, $800,000, or ONLY 10%!
Listen PEOPLE, the CHARITABLE organizations, the NON-PROFIT organizations are being CHEATED by this PROFITABLE ministry. Why are you wasting your GOOD earned money? It would go MUCH further if you'd donate it directly to a charity of your choice.
Sorry, what a rip-off. IMHO................I seriously have been trying to hold my fingers still regarding this former employer of the accused murderer. But geesh!......I've been reading different things throughout the day and I can't believe so many people fall for the carp!
JMHO
fran
Jack
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Lovejac
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Maybe there were blood spots on it?CC had scratch marks on his arm, maybe Garrett put up a fight and scratched CC, drawing blood?
OR ... maybe it was discharge they were hoping to get samples of?
When my sister passed away last year, she choked in her sleep due to asthma and couldn't breathe. She had regurgitated some pretty foul liquid after she died. Perhaps little Garrett did too and they were just trying to get some sort of sample from it.
Sorry to be so gross
I am SO glad you said that! That was the first thing that popped in my mind, except mine was grosser, and I didn't want to say it out loud. I wondered if CC had beaten him.
So sorry you lost your sister last year. :blowkiss:
daisy.faithfull
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Interesting Wikipedia article about "groupthink"
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink[/ame]
Portions I found particularly interesting as they seem to apply to CC:
Symptoms of groupthink
I'd argue that the religious organizations that CC has been apart of exhibit many of these symptoms
To make groupthink testable, Irving Janis devised eight symptoms indicative of groupthink (1977).
* Illusions of invulnerability creating excessive optimism and encouraging risk taking.
* Rationalising warnings that might challenge the group's assumptions.
* Unquestioned belief in the morality of the group, causing members to ignore the consequences of their actions.
* Stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, biased, spiteful, disfigured, impotent, or stupid.
* Direct pressure to conform placed on any member who questions the group, couched in terms of "disloyalty".
* Self censorship of ideas that deviate from the apparent group consensus.
* Illusions of unanimity among group members, silence is viewed as agreement.
* Mindguards — self-appointed members who shield the group from dissenting information.
Groupthink, resulting from the symptoms listed above, results in defective decision making. That is, consensus-driven decisions are the result of the following practices of groupthinking:
Incomplete survey of alternatives
Incomplete survey of objectives
Failure to examine risks of preferred choice
Failure to reevaluate previously rejected alternatives
Poor information search
Selection bias in collecting information
Failure to work out contingency plans.
Certainly CC's actions are way off the chart, and so would his current symptoms, but I can see how some if not all of these "defective decision making" skills may have gotten the ball rolling...
Groupthink and de-individuation
Cults are also studied by sociologists with regards to groupthink and its effect on deindividuation. The textbook definition states deindividuation as the loss of self-awareness and evaluation apprehension; occurs in group situations that foster anonymity and draw attention away from the individual (Myers, 305)
I'm out here in AZ where we have the FLDS, so I don't know if we can call JMM and other similiar organization a cult, but I included the de-individuation because I wonder at its roll in CC's life...
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink[/ame]
Portions I found particularly interesting as they seem to apply to CC:
Symptoms of groupthink
I'd argue that the religious organizations that CC has been apart of exhibit many of these symptoms
To make groupthink testable, Irving Janis devised eight symptoms indicative of groupthink (1977).
* Illusions of invulnerability creating excessive optimism and encouraging risk taking.
* Rationalising warnings that might challenge the group's assumptions.
* Unquestioned belief in the morality of the group, causing members to ignore the consequences of their actions.
* Stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, biased, spiteful, disfigured, impotent, or stupid.
* Direct pressure to conform placed on any member who questions the group, couched in terms of "disloyalty".
* Self censorship of ideas that deviate from the apparent group consensus.
* Illusions of unanimity among group members, silence is viewed as agreement.
* Mindguards — self-appointed members who shield the group from dissenting information.
Groupthink, resulting from the symptoms listed above, results in defective decision making. That is, consensus-driven decisions are the result of the following practices of groupthinking:
Incomplete survey of alternatives
Incomplete survey of objectives
Failure to examine risks of preferred choice
Failure to reevaluate previously rejected alternatives
Poor information search
Selection bias in collecting information
Failure to work out contingency plans.
Certainly CC's actions are way off the chart, and so would his current symptoms, but I can see how some if not all of these "defective decision making" skills may have gotten the ball rolling...
Groupthink and de-individuation
Cults are also studied by sociologists with regards to groupthink and its effect on deindividuation. The textbook definition states deindividuation as the loss of self-awareness and evaluation apprehension; occurs in group situations that foster anonymity and draw attention away from the individual (Myers, 305)
I'm out here in AZ where we have the FLDS, so I don't know if we can call JMM and other similiar organization a cult, but I included the de-individuation because I wonder at its roll in CC's life...
Texas Mist
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I was wondering why alllll the bedding wasn't noted....the perp's hairs or fibers from clothing, etc could have been on any of it right?
I don't think we have seen a complete list of what was taken from the home.
PrayersForMaura
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the emails, statements, everything about the warrants here in one link.
http://www.fox2now.com/media/acrobat/2009-05/47161772.pdf
Sorry if this was already posted....
http://www.fox2now.com/media/acrobat/2009-05/47161772.pdf
Sorry if this was already posted....
Fairy1
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I get where you're coming from chestergal. But if CC's defenders are soliciting $$$ for his defense, they ARE involved.
I have never been in such a situation but I really have to wonder, in the face of so much evidence, how can ANYONE believe this man is innocent? I know that if my own son committed such a horrific crime, I would know it as soon as I looked into his eyes. And I would still love him and would probably find forgiveness somewhere down the line. But jeez - this guy KILLED HIS CHILDREN!!! I just don't know how one - even a parent - can get past that.
BasicInstincts
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This is so true Daisy. That's why we have so many Kool Ade Kids following these groups. Jim Jones lives on.
PrayersForMaura
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Wow, according to the search warrants, CC sure had quite a few jump drives or "thumb drives". Wonder what all he was saving to those?
PrayersForMaura
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Yikes, the home depot receipt was dated in July of 2008??
That was quite a while ago!!
That was quite a while ago!!
southernillinoisman
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In light of the release of the documents from this case today, the information that I have to share is relatively inconsequential but I wanted to share it anyway, in case it is of interest to some folks here:
For starters, I need to take back a bit of what I shared last night. I had a long conversation with a Managerial level JMM individual today who clarified some things. I stated last night that CC was the only link between Grace Church Ministries and several posters here spoke up to say that this was not the case. They were correct and my initial information was wrong. Sorry about that. It seems that JM says she has known CC since he was a child. That's interesting to me as I consider her frame of mind in all of this mess CC has made. I said to my source that I had heard that JM was very angry, sortof a "woman scorned". My source corrected me and said that she would describe JM's emotional state to me far more hurt than angry (although there is anger across the board, from what the source shared, within JMM for the deceit and doing away with his beautiful family.) Also, the source said that JM is convinced, and has been from very early on, that CC was guilty. She, like many others that knew him personally, have had a very difficult time trying to figure that out in their mind and grappling with it.
I asked my source about what Chris was like on a day to day basis. They said he was one of the nicest young men they'd met...always cheerful, serious about his work and very kind to everyone. Prodding, I asked if he was reclusive lately or more withdrawn...anything that would hint in hindsight that this was coming or that he had a "secret life." They said without hesitation, "Absolutely not...nothing. He's been the same as always leading up to this: very nice, cheerful and helpful; sortof the going above and beyond type at his job."
That all interested me a lot. It wasn't the image I had in my head. My source also spoke of a personal conversation with JM about the situation and said that JM said that God was simply proving in this situation the dangers of deceit and allowing a stronghold to take root in your life. She said that there are always consequences for those types of behavior, even when they aren't as big as this situation, and CC is finding that out now.
My source disputed the fact that JMM and JM hasn't reached out to the family, which has been discussed and reported on in great detail here since yesterday's Press Conference. I trust Sheri's family but I also trust my source...perhaps JM's attempts to be sympathetic didn't seem like they were enough. And perhaps they weren't. I don't know because I wasn't there.
I wanted to know more about RC's relationship with JM and how JM has known CC since he was a child. They wouldn't go there, so I have nothing more than simply that JM has known them for decades. I wish I knew more...it'd ease my mind or help me figure out this strange situation with CC's family (who, to me and apparently to most of you, haven't appeared to be "walking the talk" of a Christian family, let alone a family in a ministry or leadership position.)
One final note, and this is editorial and worth every cent you paid for it
I disagree with those who are taking pot-shots at JM as being a false prophet and such. I'm a Pastor and not of the Pentecostal-vein. I have had my issues with JM's "Word of Faith/Prosperity" theology and have mixed feelings about the seemingly lavish lifestyles lived by her family. But I don't feel that this situation, with the facts that we presently know, warrant attacks on JM's credibility. I've watched JM closely for many years because of my close relationship with those who work with her closely and, while I am not theologically in line with her beliefs some of the time and maybe even offended at other times in the past, I don't think she's going to be "brought down by this" or that she's hiding monstrous secrets. Matter of fact, I know she's not. The folks that I know very, very well...childhood relationships...that I trust 110% are there in leadership and they aren't hiding secrets. She is audited independantly every year and passes with flying colors. There are a few fundamentalist nut-jobs that consider it their personal lot in life to criticize every theological flaw they find in every minister that is more successful than they are...but I don't look to them for my information. I look to my analytical experience with my friends and loved ones and, more so, I look to independent folks who examine the ministry year in and year out and say that everything is on the up and up.
Sorry for the editorial, folks, especially in light of the big news today but I just wanted to share my thoughts.
Thanks to all of you for the great work that you've been doing!
For starters, I need to take back a bit of what I shared last night. I had a long conversation with a Managerial level JMM individual today who clarified some things. I stated last night that CC was the only link between Grace Church Ministries and several posters here spoke up to say that this was not the case. They were correct and my initial information was wrong. Sorry about that. It seems that JM says she has known CC since he was a child. That's interesting to me as I consider her frame of mind in all of this mess CC has made. I said to my source that I had heard that JM was very angry, sortof a "woman scorned". My source corrected me and said that she would describe JM's emotional state to me far more hurt than angry (although there is anger across the board, from what the source shared, within JMM for the deceit and doing away with his beautiful family.) Also, the source said that JM is convinced, and has been from very early on, that CC was guilty. She, like many others that knew him personally, have had a very difficult time trying to figure that out in their mind and grappling with it.
I asked my source about what Chris was like on a day to day basis. They said he was one of the nicest young men they'd met...always cheerful, serious about his work and very kind to everyone. Prodding, I asked if he was reclusive lately or more withdrawn...anything that would hint in hindsight that this was coming or that he had a "secret life." They said without hesitation, "Absolutely not...nothing. He's been the same as always leading up to this: very nice, cheerful and helpful; sortof the going above and beyond type at his job."
That all interested me a lot. It wasn't the image I had in my head. My source also spoke of a personal conversation with JM about the situation and said that JM said that God was simply proving in this situation the dangers of deceit and allowing a stronghold to take root in your life. She said that there are always consequences for those types of behavior, even when they aren't as big as this situation, and CC is finding that out now.
My source disputed the fact that JMM and JM hasn't reached out to the family, which has been discussed and reported on in great detail here since yesterday's Press Conference. I trust Sheri's family but I also trust my source...perhaps JM's attempts to be sympathetic didn't seem like they were enough. And perhaps they weren't. I don't know because I wasn't there.
I wanted to know more about RC's relationship with JM and how JM has known CC since he was a child. They wouldn't go there, so I have nothing more than simply that JM has known them for decades. I wish I knew more...it'd ease my mind or help me figure out this strange situation with CC's family (who, to me and apparently to most of you, haven't appeared to be "walking the talk" of a Christian family, let alone a family in a ministry or leadership position.)
One final note, and this is editorial and worth every cent you paid for it
I disagree with those who are taking pot-shots at JM as being a false prophet and such. I'm a Pastor and not of the Pentecostal-vein. I have had my issues with JM's "Word of Faith/Prosperity" theology and have mixed feelings about the seemingly lavish lifestyles lived by her family. But I don't feel that this situation, with the facts that we presently know, warrant attacks on JM's credibility. I've watched JM closely for many years because of my close relationship with those who work with her closely and, while I am not theologically in line with her beliefs some of the time and maybe even offended at other times in the past, I don't think she's going to be "brought down by this" or that she's hiding monstrous secrets. Matter of fact, I know she's not. The folks that I know very, very well...childhood relationships...that I trust 110% are there in leadership and they aren't hiding secrets. She is audited independantly every year and passes with flying colors. There are a few fundamentalist nut-jobs that consider it their personal lot in life to criticize every theological flaw they find in every minister that is more successful than they are...but I don't look to them for my information. I look to my analytical experience with my friends and loved ones and, more so, I look to independent folks who examine the ministry year in and year out and say that everything is on the up and up.
Sorry for the editorial, folks, especially in light of the big news today but I just wanted to share my thoughts.
Thanks to all of you for the great work that you've been doing!
panthera
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Forensic evidence, possibly DNA from the perp?
What's mind-boggling is she brags about taking in $8 MILLION a MONTH, AND brags about the portion of that donated for charitable work, $800,000, or ONLY 10%!
Listen PEOPLE, the CHARITABLE organizations, the NON-PROFIT organizations are being CHEATED by this PROFITABLE ministry. Why are you wasting your GOOD earned money? It would go MUCH further if you'd donate it directly to a charity of your choice.
Sorry, what a rip-off. IMHO................I seriously have been trying to hold my fingers still regarding this former employer of the accused murderer. But geesh!......I've been reading different things throughout the day and I can't believe so many people fall for the carp!
JMHO
fran
Although I agree that on the surface this looks really really bad, but I'd like to see their books and see where the money is going before I pass judgement on them. Maybe it goes to help people? By law they are required to send you that information if you request it.
On the flipside, I certainly would not be involved without checking them out!!!
panthera
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I wonder what else he would've used the red spray paint for? Just curious since from the date on the receipt it seems like something that was just "handy" at the time of the murders. :waitasec:
PrayersForMaura
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The more I read through these search warrants, the more amazed I am!! How many laptops, camera and cell phones do a family of 4 need?!?!? Or were they ALL his -- which is even worse!!!
chestergal
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He has mention by full name other people who live in this town that have nothing to do with this case, church, or the Coleman's.
If he has something then a screen capture or a link to the myspace or whatever it was would have been fine.
Yes I find it hard to understand why anyone would support this family - but I just think it is not right to put these peoples full names on here unless they come out publicly and stay out there publicly.
Bluenotes
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"I attempted to slightly roll her over in order to see her eyes and check for breathing. I noticed when I lifted her shoulder, her head and neck moved also. It appeared rigor mortis had set in. I noticed the skin of her chest and head appeared purple," Barlow reported.
http://www.bnd.com/homepage/story/784681.html
Depending on the manifestation of livorsmall blotches versus larger areasthe person has likely been dead anywhere from 2-8 hours provided the livor has not become permanent or "fixed". If the livor is fixed, then the person has likely been dead longer than 8 hours.
http://http://www.coronerstories.com/2005/06/22/%E2%80%9Clivor-mortis%E2%80%9D/
http://www.bnd.com/homepage/story/784681.html
Depending on the manifestation of livorsmall blotches versus larger areasthe person has likely been dead anywhere from 2-8 hours provided the livor has not become permanent or "fixed". If the livor is fixed, then the person has likely been dead longer than 8 hours.
http://http://www.coronerstories.com/2005/06/22/%E2%80%9Clivor-mortis%E2%80%9D/
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