From what I understand, the strangulation was the actual murder, so everything else was the before and after. If you consider that maybe the garotte was used as a 'no hands' approach, the murder doesn't seem quite so brutal. IMO, it could have gone something like this...rage induced head bash, and then a 'no hands' strangulation, and then staging to point to a rapist and also cover up prior abuse. All of these theories pointing away from the Rs, don't make much sense to me, because regardless of what happened that night, I think they loved heir daughter enough to not cover for her murderer. IMO, the only people they would cover for, were themselves and their other children, and IMO, the latter is iffy. All moo.
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I disagree. IMO, any way you look at it, it is very brutal. Playing devil's advocate for the moment and imaging either JR or PR killed their daughter, imagine the scenario: Your daughter who you have lived with and loved and cherished is laying on the ground. She may be dying because of the head bash. You wrap a garotte around her neck and strangle her slowly to death, watching her struggle to breath and being unable to because of what you, her parent, are doing. You are purposefully killing your daughter by strangling her to death. If that is not brutal, I don't know what is. "No hands" does not make it any less brutal. In fact, it is even more brutal because it is "no hands". No parent who loved their child (your own words) could do that simply to cover up and make it look as if a brutal intruder had done it instead of them. If you thought about it enough, you would see that too.
I think you are trying to convince yourself and others that it is not that brutal because that supports what you already believe about the murder: RDI.
Alchemist
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You said it better than I did. I am also wondering if maybe the government may have been involved in these dealings. Making it a sensitive situation that shouldn't be brought to light. They have told exactly what happened, to law enforcement at the national level. And they were blocking the investigation.
This is just one scenario, I give this one as much weight as a lot of the others. I am just hoping that someone will match a piece of evidence with some of these possibilities, and maybe break the log jam.
Indications are that the cord was pulled from behind- her killer did not see her face. And because there was no evidence of a struggle (no pushing of the tongue against her lips, etc or evidence of movement of the ligature) she was almost certainly unconscious. I believe they thought she was already dead. We know she wasn't because we have the autopsy, but being there at the time it wouldn't be apparent that she was alive if she was comatose or in shock- with lowered body temperature, and breathing so shallow it may not have been noticed.
When I speak of it not being "brutal" I mean the in the sense of the physical damage that could have been inflicted in a more violent killing, not the the nature of the crime, which is of course, brutal
Even her sexual assault as been described as not being as brutal as would be expected in a pedophile intruder killer.
When I speak of it not being "brutal" I mean the in the sense of the physical damage that could have been inflicted in a more violent killing, not the the nature of the crime, which is of course, brutal
Even her sexual assault as been described as not being as brutal as would be expected in a pedophile intruder killer.
Besides the head bash, wasn't her body found to have been beaten? I am sure I have read that. If true, that would also support a brutal, violent murder.
But to me, the way her murder was done almost strikes me as an assassination. It was way "over the top" compared to what would have been necessary to simply kill her. Whoever did it was trying to make a statement. We can argue as to what that statement was, but to me it was a cold blooded kill, and the statement was that the killer was proud of what he did. There was no remorse. A parent would never do this.
a lot of experts agree that there were signs of remorse and undoing. I'm not sure I agree, but I'm no expert, so I mostly take their word on that one. I disagree that no parent would ever do this, though. This was the most personal attack that I have ever heard of, and who but a family member, would feel this much emotion towards a 6 year old child? Somebody got mad enough to crush JonBenet's skull, and IMO, nobody outside those closest to her, could ever have felt that much rage towards her. Everything pertaining to this crime, (down to the pen and paper used for the ransom note), leads right back to that house, so IMO, it's no big leap to think the murderer also came from that house. Actually, I find it almost impossible to believe that an outsider could have pulled all of this off. But, I do agree that somebody was trying to make a statement, at least for a few moments...like, ' How dare you, and you will NEVER make me this mad again'. IMO, this murder was about rage and then self preservation. All Moo.
You may have read it, but it isn't true. She was NOT beaten. The coroner would have noted it, and the bruises would have been seen. There were very few bruises on JB- one on her rear right shoulder, in a place where it is easy to see that someone kneeled or pressed there while tying the cord, which was at the back of her neck. Other bruised were on a labia - a red flag for sexual assault, and others INSIDE her vagina. Sexual abuse is certain in this case. Bruising does not happen postmortem. This happened when she was alive.
Some parents do a lot worse, believe me.
BTW, I read it too, in a tabloid long ago. It is not factual.
There is NO indication the killer was proud of what he did. The body was hidden AND covered. And she was dressed, after a sexual assault. A pedophile/intruder killer wouldn't have bothered to do that. They would have displayed her in an offensive manner.
EVERY investigator recognized signs of remorse and un-doing in this case.
Alchemist
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My feeling is that it could have been emotion that led to this type of killing; or, as Anyhoo has stated, Some one trying to make a statement.
From looking at the autopsy pictures of the rope dug deep into her neck, That is brutal beyond what I believe the ramseys would have done.
And what are the signs of remorse and undoing?
Don't get me wrong, I believe the ramseys were involved. Ii don't beleive they murdered Jon Benet, but are accessories.
I am going to try to prove this scenario with the evidence and see how it pans out. It may or may not. I am going to get my thoughts together and post it.
From looking at the autopsy pictures of the rope dug deep into her neck, That is brutal beyond what I believe the ramseys would have done.
And what are the signs of remorse and undoing?
Don't get me wrong, I believe the ramseys were involved. Ii don't beleive they murdered Jon Benet, but are accessories.
I am going to try to prove this scenario with the evidence and see how it pans out. It may or may not. I am going to get my thoughts together and post it.
Alchemist
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Were there fingernail marks? I don't remember hearing about that or seeing them.
Whaleshark
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This is where you and Anyhoo may have to adjust your acceptance of reality a little bit.
Many parents brutally injure, abuse, and murder their children every day. I have posted numerous specific cases about this fact over and over again.
You cannot eliminate the parents based on the level of brutality of her injuries and killing.
Julie Scheneker shot her two teenaged children - her daughter in the face, and her son after soccer practice.
Little Zahra Baker was murdered and dismembered by her stepmother.
I don't need to repost the rest...they are easy to find.
In fact, here's the actual truth, which is opposite of what you, and most, tend to believe - naturally:
Parents most likely perpetrators in child killings
http://washingtonexaminer.com/parents-most-likely-perpetrators-in-child-killings/article/400346
March 24, 2012
"To many parents, there's nothing more frightening than the thought of their child being taken, hurt or even killed by a stranger.
But a string of D.C.-area child death cases in the news this month highlights an uncomfortable reality: Children are more likely to die at the hands of their parents or other caregivers than anyone else.
Just this month, a Bristow woman pleaded guilty to child neglect charges for leaving her 2-year-old son alone in a hot van, killing the boy; a Sterling woman was arrested for allegedly killing her 20-month-old daughter in 2005; and a Manassas woman was charged with murder for allegedly causing the death of her 3-month-old son by neglecting him.
More cases
Other child slayings at the hands of parents have gripped the Washington area in recent years. A few more instances:
- Banita Jacks: In one of the region's most high-profile cases, the Southeast D.C. woman was convicted of murder and other offenses in the deaths of her four daughters, whose decomposed bodies were found in their rowhouse in January 2008. Prosecutors alleged that she intentionally starved and tortured the girls and isolated them from neighbors.
- Margaret Jensvold: The Kensington psychiatrist fatally shot her 11-year-old son, then turned the gun on herself, at their home in August. She was apparently upset over her son's education.
- Curtis Lopez: Lopez is scheduled to stand trial in October in the Germantown slayings of his estranged wife and stepson.
Between 1976 and 2005, 60 percent of all homicide victims in the United States under the age 5 were killed by one of their parents, according to data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Nearly all others were slain by another relative or acquaintance; just 3 percent died at the hands of a stranger.
But parents focus on the stranger killings because they're more likely to get news coverage, and that "stays in people's heads," said Michele Booth Cole, executive director of Safe Shores, a District nonprofit that coordinates child abuse investigations.
"People feel like it doesn't happen in their neighborhood, with their group of friends, to their kids," she said.
The truth is hard for parents to face, experts say.
"It is much more acceptable for us to believe that children are more likely to be killed by strangers than acknowledging the reality," said Dr. Paul Appelbaum, a psychiatry professor at Columbia University.
To some degree, parents are the most likely perpetrators in child deaths simply because few others have reason or opportunity to harm children.
"Parents have the motive," said Dr. Phillip Resnick, a psychiatry professor at Case Western Reserve University. For strangers, he said, "there's not a good reason to kill a child."
Stress, a history of abuse, and mental illness are often seen in parents who kill their children.
The majority of child abuse cases are linked to stressors that may be temporary but cause a parent to snap, said Thomas Hafemeister, a professor at the University of Virginia School of Law. Mothers who kill often suffer from postpartum psychiatric disorders, according to Appelbaum, and parents who were abused themselves are more likely to become abusers, Cole said.
"They weren't parented," she said. "They can't even see the damage that they are doing or are capable of doing."
Experts say the youngest children are the most vulnerable. Homicide is the third-leading cause of death for children age 4 and younger, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
"If you hit a newborn, you're going to do a lot more damage than if you hit a teenager," Hafemeister said.
With young children, even innocuous objects can prove deadly. Vanesa Patricio-Cruz, the Sterling woman charged in her daughter's 2005 death, admitted to investigators that she struck the child's head with a remote control, court documents say.
Cole said increasing awareness about child abuse and providing support for parents is crucial in preventing deaths.
"How do families get to the point where the child could be crying out for help or the parents sending signals that they're totally unbalanced and nobody knows?" she said."...
___
We need to get over the misconception that a parent (or family member) most likely didn't do it if it was so brutal -- in fact the opposite is true, as noted above.
You may not want to believe it, but it is what it is.
She was not dead from the head bash. COD, irrc - according to the autopsy, was the garroting. She most likely would have eventually died from the head bash, but it was not what did her in.
Alchemist
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I understand that some parents do terrible things to their children; but I have a gut feeling that niether of the ramseys were capable of that. Here are a few of my thoughts that help me form that opinion. There was no record of prior physical abuse. I can't see going from never bruiseing a child to doing what happened overnight. And Jon Benet was winning pagents and I am sure patsey was pleased with that. And the two ways of killing, the bash and the garote. I just can't keep looking for clues that they did it anymore. There just isn't the evidence to prove that they did it. Keep in mind that I am seperating the murder from being involved in someway. If the truth is in a different direction, then thats where I'm headed.
And here is another thing. Can anyone explain to me the relevance of the basement window? That won't prove anything. I think it is just a distraction from the case. Why couldn't an intruder have walked through one of the doors?
And here is another thing. Can anyone explain to me the relevance of the basement window? That won't prove anything. I think it is just a distraction from the case. Why couldn't an intruder have walked through one of the doors?
Whaleshark
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some of us strongly consider it a Burke did it, with the parents covering for him, by the way -- which is still a family member... with all family members involved.
but having a 'gut feeling that neither were capable'...is more like wishful thinking, and only wanting to believe the best of these parents and buy into their shiny exterior.
yes, the basement window is a red herring -- provided by the parents and lou smit as an entry point. you actually make a point for the RDI case. the basement window is absurd as an entry point.
you might want to read all the overwhelmingly contradictory testimony by the Ramseys to fill in more pieces of the puzzle.
it becomes painfully obvious.
but having a 'gut feeling that neither were capable'...is more like wishful thinking, and only wanting to believe the best of these parents and buy into their shiny exterior.
yes, the basement window is a red herring -- provided by the parents and lou smit as an entry point. you actually make a point for the RDI case. the basement window is absurd as an entry point.
you might want to read all the overwhelmingly contradictory testimony by the Ramseys to fill in more pieces of the puzzle.
it becomes painfully obvious.
In Kolar's book pg 56, he points out what looks like fingernail marks around the garroted area.
I thought JonBenet would have been unconscious from the head bash?
All I can say about there being no record of prior abuse, is how do we know that? For example, in the autopsy, evidence of prior damage was found. Also, JB went to the dr too many times to count, there was the incident with the golf club, (BR supposedly hit her, but we don't know), some of PR's associates were reportedly planning a 'mega JonBenet', intervention, (and this wasn't because PR was such a great parent), the housekeeper said there were loud, screaming, crying fights between PR and JB, and then there were the pageant outfits to consider...IMO, the vegas showgirl costume alone, was enough to warrant an investigation. And speaking of investigations, it has been reported, (in one of BR's early interviews), that some kind of social services had been involved. It came up when BR's bedwetting was brought up...it was said that social services provided some history on BR. BR denied still bedwetting, and said it was a long time ago, so IMO, social services might have been involved at that time. Anyway, there are a lot more red flags, these are just a few, but IMO, 'no record of prior abuse', doesn't necessarily mean there Was no prior abuse. moo
There are NO fingernail marks, nor have they ever been officially identified as such. The marks you see are petechial hemorrhages. They are noted as such in the autopsy report, which I strongly recommend reading for those who haven't. It will help to clear up a lot of questions and misunderstanding. So would the autopsy photos.
Many people jump all over the "fingernail" marks and say that it proves she struggled. She did not. There were no fingernail marks.
The undoing was the redressing and wrapping her in her blanket. There is some evidence that a Barbie doll (1996 Holiday Barbie) was reported to be in the room with her and appears in some photos. The presence of her favorite pink Barbie nightgown may also indicate undoing if it was deliberately placed There is a possibility that it may have simply come out of the basement dryer (where the white blanket she was wrapped in came from) attached to the blanket by static cling. JR made a very telling slip when shown a crime photo of the wine cellar depicting the white blanket that JB had been wrapped in and shows the pink nightie lying on top of it. When police showed JR that photo he pointed to the nightie and said "that wasn't supposed to be there".
Neither was the white blanket and dead little girl, right? None of it was "supposed to be there". Yet once again, police simply let it go.
belimom
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I come from a fairly respected family - my father owned a successful business in town and we lived in a nice home in a nice neighborhood. But I can tell you, it was h3ll behind those closed doors. No sexual abuse, but physical and emotional abuse and a generally unhappy place to be. At the height of it all, we were chosen as Family of the Year and had our picture in the paper, smiling and looking like the perfect all-American family.
So whenever I hear that PR and JR couldn't have done anything like that, I know it's possible.
There are many folks on this very board who have told horror stories of sexual abuse *in their own families*. We all know of cases where parents have killed/tortured/abused their kids in the most horrible ways.
Is it more believable when someone is poor and lives in a trailer or is non-white? Read John Grisham's 'A Time To Kill' and then ask yourself, "If this were a poor black kid living on the wrong side of the tracks, and we had nothing else except the facts of the case - no media spin, no big money, no political connections - would folks feel differently about the parents in this case?" Absolutely they would. JMO
So whenever I hear that PR and JR couldn't have done anything like that, I know it's possible.
There are many folks on this very board who have told horror stories of sexual abuse *in their own families*. We all know of cases where parents have killed/tortured/abused their kids in the most horrible ways.
Is it more believable when someone is poor and lives in a trailer or is non-white? Read John Grisham's 'A Time To Kill' and then ask yourself, "If this were a poor black kid living on the wrong side of the tracks, and we had nothing else except the facts of the case - no media spin, no big money, no political connections - would folks feel differently about the parents in this case?" Absolutely they would. JMO
Here's another 'slip', I remember...not exactly remorse or undoing, but an unreasonable 'understanding'. I don't remember who said it, but someone reported that JR said something about how the killer didn't intend to kill JB, because she was wrapped to keep warm? So, if JR did make this reference, even He recognized the act of remorse and undoing. moo