Socks? Was Jon Benet wearing them?

[Steely]

I know this sounds stupid since I should remember,.

txsvicki, it doesn't sound stupid to me at all. There is so much information, misinformation, theory, it is really hard to keep it all straight, isn't it? I don't remember anything at all about a pillow in the kitchen. Drawing a total blank...isn't the first time, won't be my last!

You are right about feet getting dirty right through ballet tights...and they aren't cheap and they run really easily. I would not let a kid run around in them without ballet shoes or taking them OFF but if they were the thick cotton ones Hanna Andersson sells...they take more abuse but can be slippery on wood floors. They are so sturdy with a little care you can pass them down to another child or two. Seriously. They are also really soft and breathe so a mom would be more apt to leave them on a child than nylon or microfiber tights AND they can leave a lot of lint. I wish we knew what brand of tights were taken by LE!

 

[DeeDee249]

JB was said to wear black boots with her black velvet pants, white shirt and black velvet vest to the White's party. She did not go barefoot.
The problem with the particles on JB's feet is that things like that can't be "dated" to a specific day or time. My sense of it is that if there had been debris on her feet that matched the debris (mold, etc) from the WC floor (indicating she was alive and standing in there before she was killed) we would have heard it by this time from official sources.
I don't think she was alive in that room. I think she was placed in there after she was killed.

 

[Steely]

Steely,
Patsy suggests in her interview that she removed JonBenet's socks. Removal of the socks may simply form part of the staging , that is , to suggest JonBenet was kidnapped from her bed whilst asleep.

.

Thank you, UK Guy!!!! I don't remember ever reading that but I've been away from reading about the case for a long while. So much to slog through to refresh and lots more info posted. I think all of you have been doing an awesome job sleuthing here. That is helpful to know what PR "said" she was wearing.

 

[Steely]

JB was said to wear black boots with her black velvet pants, white shirt and black velvet vest to the White's party. She did not go barefoot.
The problem with the particles on JB's feet is that things like that can't be "dated" to a specific day or time. My sense of it is that if there had been debris on her feet that matched the debris (mold, etc) from the WC floor (indicating she was alive and standing in there before she was killed) we would have heard it by this time from official sources.
I don't think she was alive in that room. I think she was placed in there after she was killed.

Thanks, DeeDee249! Do you remember who said that and whether it was tights or socks underneath? Velvet or possibly velveteen? Many people don't know the difference. Velveteen is more likely to be washable...velvet dry cleaned. Were those the pants found "soiled"??? Were the pants machine washable? The difference is important because it could play into motive.

I agree you would think that we'd have heard by now but I know someone who was missing and later found murdered and many people were very critical of the investigation but later a lot of information came out that showed they were much more thorough than they APPEARED to be and they held many "cards" close to their chests, so to speak. Because of that, I figure it is like that expression..."we don't know the half of it." Frustrating.

 

[Steely]

PR: Well, I changed her and took the black velvet pants off and found those, those long underwear pants and put on her.

Changed her (Changed her WHAT?)and took the black velvet pants off AND found those, those long underwear pants and put on her.
What did she change? And took the black velvet pants off and found (where?) those long underwear pants and put on her.:waitasec:

PR said she didn't change her shirt...WHAT did she change?
She did not say "I changed her out of her clothes...I took the black velvet pants off and found those long underwear pants to put on her."
She said, "I changed her AND..."
Are we sure that is exactly what was said. I'm sorry, I don't know... was this a transcript from a video?


JR says he took her shoes off. PR said she took everything off. Anyone find any direct questions or answers about socks or tights in any other interviews? I read the red turtleneck was in a ball...was it in the laundry room? Can someone give me a link to the laundry room info? I don't remember reading about red turtlenecks and paring knives so I missed something really important, didn't I? Thanks!

 

[Ames]

Has this subject already been covered? If so, I apologize and please give me the link. Thanks.

Did JB wear socks or tights on Christmas Day?

Did she have them on when she was allegedly put to bed?

Were the last pair of socks/tights she wore ever found? If so, where?
Were they in the dirty clothes, in her bed, on the floor, laundry room?
Were they tested for DNA?
Or are they missing?

Did JB usually wear socks to bed in the winter? Some kids like to sleep with socks on in the winter.(This was Colorado in December...did the Ramsey home have in-floor heating? How warm did they keep their home?)

Was "lint" really found on her feet?
If so, could it have been there because the perp removed her socks/tights?
Could the reason no semen was found be that the perp used one of her socks to catch his semen?
Could the other sock have been used to "wipe her down"?

Socks with evidence could have been hidden in a pocket or in the perp's socks or underwear and removed from the scene and disposed of elsewhere... (If intruder...kept as a souvenir?)
One sock with evidence could have been rolled up and put into the other sock, or the parts with evidence balled up inside of one of the socks with a clean section on the outer surface to help contain that evidence and prevent it from being deposited on the perp during transport.

What about slippers?
The Ramseys were reportedly very concerned with cleanliness.
Did the Ramseys wear street shoes in their home or did they leave them near the door when they came inside with them all wet and snowy in the winter? Did they wear snow boots usually when they went out and keep shoes or slippers to change into by the door?

Where were the shoes and/or snow boots JB wore earlier in the day found?
By the door? In her room? By her bed? In her closet?
What did the Ramseys say they did with her shoes when they allegedly carried her in? Were they asked about her socks/tights?

Did JB usually wear slippers when she was in the house?
What kind were they? What type of sole? Where did she keep them?
Would she have slipped slippers on if she walked to get a snack (pineapple) in the kitchen?
Did she have slippers? Where were her slippers found?
Were her slippers tested for DNA evidence?

John said that he removed her shoes (I read later that they were boots), but didn't mention socks or tights in his interview.

 

[Agatha_C]

Thanks for the post, Agatha! I posted links to the tights before reading this. Thanks, you are right! I didn't know that about the water heated...was that in the flooring?

I believe the walls were water heated or at least that’s what I've read (I’ll see if I can find that source)…

Didn't JR also say they slept with their bedroom window cracked open sometimes even in the winter? Which would make you think their house was really warm.

This is from John Ramsey's 1998 Lou Smit interview in 1998 with regard to the matter of whether or not he heard anything on the night JonBenet was murdered:

7 LOU SMIT: Now let's think throughout the

8 night. I know you probably thought that a 100

9 times. Did you hear anything throughout the night?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not a thing.

11 LOU SMIT: Let's talk about the sounds in your

12 house. Have you ever been wakened by your children

13 before at night?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall I ever have been.

15 They would sometimes they would come in the bed

16 with us. But I don't remember ever being awakened

17 by a noise or (INAUDIBLE).

18 LOU SMIT: Would either JonBenet or would

19 Burke ever cry out in their sleep if they had bad

20 dreams?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember Burke used to talk

22 in his sleep. But crying out, no, I don't remember

23 that.

24 LOU SMIT: Could you ever hear Burke talk

25 in

0119

1 his sleep?

2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember, no.

3 LOU SMIT: In Burke's room, does he have an

4 aquarium?

5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.

6 LOU SMIT: Can you describe any noises that

7 that makes?

8 JOHN RAMSEY: It just has a normal pump. It

9 was (INAUDIBLE), it's not particularly noisy.

10 LOU SMIT: How about, in almost every house,

11 especially my house, did you ever hear noises

12 associated with (INAUDIBLE) home noises? Can you

13 remember anything, maybe not that particular night

14 but any other night?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I really can't. I mean we hear

16 noises from -- when we hear noises, it was

17 typically from outdoors from students.

18 LOU SMIT: You can hear that from your room?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: We always slept with the windows

20 open.

21 LOU SMIT: How did you sleep that night with

22 your windows open?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably cracked. I always

24 liked to have the window open. But it was winter

25 night so we cracked it probably



But if that is the case, why did PR say she put JB in long underwear? Do we know the brand?

IMO, she wasn’t put to bed in the long johns. However I did read somewhere that the R’s were leaving early so the kids would be going in pj’s. So most likely for the warmth needed for early morning travel in CO. or at least that’s what they want you to think IMO. As to the brand I don’t know that (something else to find)


I have looked at the crime scene photos. I'm not sure which ones you are talking about. I know the basement wasn't clean by any means. But a lot of people neglect their basements. Maybe I haven't seen all the photos. What areas do you mean?

Various photos of the family’s living space show clutter and again IMO, not very clean. Nedra would get onto PR, for the mess she left for the housekeeper LHP. From this, I conclude, PR was not a neat freak.
LHP (taking what she says with a grain of salt) had this to say in an interview.



LHP - That was my feeling, that the blanket was in the dryer. I think the blanket wasn't on her bed that night. I don't think a stranger would know where the blanket was. the R's didn't even have a hamper, they just left clothes lying around. http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/02151999peterboylesshow-pb.htm

I first met JonBenet when she was in preschool. She was home, like, half a day. Patsy called her Jonnie B. I spent half my time picking up after her. She and her brother would just leave everything on the floor-their socks, their shoes, toys, books, just everything. They were never trained to put things away properly.

I always came in the side door, and I'd walk right into the kitchen and not know where to start. Dishes all over. If they had Ovaltine, the jar would still be open. I always had to wipe the peanut butter off the counter. "I think we ought to get a hamper," I told Patsy.
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-linda-hoffmann-pugh.htm


I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions.

Anytime I can help I will. I warn you however, I am new to this and other posters here are far more knowledgeable about this case then I.

I hope this helped in answering some of your questions.

 

[UKGuy]

John said that he removed her shoes (I read later that they were boots), but didn't mention socks or tights in his interview.

Ames,

The R's were pretty opaque over who did what, and likely just made it up as they went along. For some reason John did not want to be associated with undressing JonBenet.

You have to wonder how they managed to pratically undress JonBenet from foot to head, minus her white gap top, without awakening her?

Why just remove her shoes and stop there, what is all that about?


If he had said he undressed her then there would be a reason for his shirt fibers being found on JonBenet's crotch area?

remember the bit about JonBenet's coat which found later hanging up downstairs, or was it left in the car?


.

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

Ames,

The R's were pretty opaque over who did what, and likely just made it up as they went along. For some reason John did not want to be associated with undressing JonBenet.

You have to wonder how they managed to pratically undress JonBenet from foot to head, minus her white gap top, without awakening her?

Why just remove her shoes and stop there, what is all that about?


If he had said he undressed her then there would be a reason for his shirt fibers being found on JonBenet's crotch area?

remember the bit about JonBenet's coat which found later hanging up downstairs, or was it left in the car?


.

well how would the forensics prove JR undressed her in her bed before him going to bed or JR undressed her downstairs before abusing her?

 

[my_tee_mouse]

Hot air rises, so the upstairs floor would be hotter than the floor where JBR and BR slept. That might account for the window. Some folks just like their room cool when they sleep (everyone in my family has to sleep with a fan on year-round).

Also, kids have a tendency to kick off the covers in the night. In cold temps, I always dressed my son (and now our grandkids) at night to allow for that (usually footed pj's).

 

[DeeDee249]

Thanks, DeeDee249! Do you remember who said that and whether it was tights or socks underneath? Velvet or possibly velveteen? Many people don't know the difference. Velveteen is more likely to be washable...velvet dry cleaned. Were those the pants found "soiled"??? Were the pants machine washable? The difference is important because it could play into motive.

I agree you would think that we'd have heard by now but I know someone who was missing and later found murdered and many people were very critical of the investigation but later a lot of information came out that showed they were much more thorough than they APPEARED to be and they held many "cards" close to their chests, so to speak. Because of that, I figure it is like that expression..."we don't know the half of it." Frustrating.

Patsy had said that JB's whole outfit (black velvet pants and vest and white sweatshirt with silver sequin star) was bought from Gap Kids. I buy from there all the time, and I would say that her pants and vest were washable cotton velvet (velveteen) and not rayon velvet (dry clean only). Most kids clothing is washable. I agree that LE wouldn't know the difference, though.

I agree that LE holds about 50 cards if that deck. We see only 2.

 

[Ames]

Ames,

The R's were pretty opaque over who did what, and likely just made it up as they went along. For some reason John did not want to be associated with undressing JonBenet.

You have to wonder how they managed to pratically undress JonBenet from foot to head, minus her white gap top, without awakening her?

Why just remove her shoes and stop there, what is all that about?


If he had said he undressed her then there would be a reason for his shirt fibers being found on JonBenet's crotch area?

remember the bit about JonBenet's coat which found later hanging up downstairs, or was it left in the car?


.

Yep, her coat was later found in the car. I just don't believe that she was asleep at all. I believe Burke's initial story about her walking in with everyone else...and helping to carry presents. I mean...how do you confuse that with ...her being asleep and being carried upstairs by JR? I know that even ST said that he believed that Burke was confused. This is one time that I disagree with ST. Patsy said that she was "zonked out" and that is why she didn't wake up while being brought upstairs...and having her boots removed.

 

[Steely]

Yep, her coat was later found in the car. I just don't believe that she was asleep at all. I believe Burke's initial story about her walking in with everyone else...and helping to carry presents. I mean...how do you confuse that with ...her being asleep and being carried upstairs by JR? I know that even ST said that he believed that Burke was confused. This is one time that I disagree with ST. Patsy said that she was "zonked out" and that is why she didn't wake up while being brought upstairs...and having her boots removed.

I don't believe it either, Ames. I know some kids can sleep really soundly but grabbed from the car, hauled into the house, up the stairs...placed in bed, shoes removed? Maybe if she was knocked out but zonked out? Nah. This was Christmas Day...these kids had to leave their new toys behind to go to the White's for dinner? I bet they didn't even want to go and they couldn't wait to get home to play with their new stuff.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1997BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

Uh JonBenet had fallen fast to sleep. Uh, I carried her inside and took her upstairs and put her in bed, put her on her bed. Uh Patsy came up behind me, and then I went down to get Burke ready for bed, he was down in the living room, working on a toy he got putting it together, and tried to get him to go to bed because we had to get up early the next morning, but he wanted to get this toy put together, so I worked with him on that for 10 15 minutes probably; and then I took him up to bed and got his pajamas on, probably brushed his teeth, and then I went up stairs from there and got ready for bed. I read her a little bit. The lights went out around ten-thirtyish or ten-forty.

Maybe while JR and BR were building that toy in the living room, PR and JB were in the kitchen getting a snack. (pineapple and tea) Maybe JB wanted to go in the living room too to watch her Dad and Brother. Afraid she would spill...PR put her drink in a sippy cup.

Did he say he "read there a little bit" or he "read for (fer) a litle bit" or he "read (to) her a little bit."???? "The lights" went out"????? Doesn't that sound like the power went out? I would think he'd say "we turned our lights off around ten-thirtyish or ten-forty." It sounds to me like he might have slipped a little that he read to JB and had to go in the kids rooms at ten-thirty or ten-forty to say, "OK, LIGHTS OUT!!!"

Did anyone else feel that way after reading JR's quote?

 

[Steely]

Patsy had said that JB's whole outfit (black velvet pants and vest and white sweatshirt with silver sequin star) was bought from Gap Kids. I buy from there all the time, and I would say that her pants and vest were washable cotton velvet (velveteen) and not rayon velvet (dry clean only). Most kids clothing is washable. I agree that LE wouldn't know the difference, though.

I agree that LE holds about 50 cards if that deck. We see only 2.

Thanks!!!!! Yes, from Gap Kids it would be velveteen and machine washable. I wanted to know for sure because if it was a DRY CLEAN ONLY silk or rayon VELVET not velveteen, PR might have been really upset because it might have been ruined. Most kids clothing is washable. But VELVET usually is not as far as I know, and I'm sure a lot of JB's costumes were NOT washable. PR would know where to buy real velvet. I know one theory was PR was really upset about the bedwetting/soiling so I thought a dry clean only outfit would add to any alleged anger over that, that's why I asked.

I remember there was a mail order place at that time that carried high end clothing with a lot of mother and daughter outfits which had a lot of dry clean only stuff...I can't remember their name. Anyway they also sold costume-like outfits. Anyone know which one I'm thinking of? Does anyone know how the outfit she actually wore differed from the mother-daughter outfit PR wanted her to wear? Or where that one came from? Thanks.

 

[UKGuy]

I don't believe it either, Ames. I know some kids can sleep really soundly but grabbed from the car, hauled into the house, up the stairs...placed in bed, shoes removed? Maybe if she was knocked out but zonked out? Nah. This was Christmas Day...these kids had to leave their new toys behind to go to the White's for dinner? I bet they didn't even want to go and they couldn't wait to get home to play with their new stuff.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1997BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

Uh JonBenet had fallen fast to sleep. Uh, I carried her inside and took her upstairs and put her in bed, put her on her bed. Uh Patsy came up behind me, and then I went down to get Burke ready for bed, he was down in the living room, working on a toy he got putting it together, and tried to get him to go to bed because we had to get up early the next morning, but he wanted to get this toy put together, so I worked with him on that for 10 15 minutes probably; and then I took him up to bed and got his pajamas on, probably brushed his teeth, and then I went up stairs from there and got ready for bed. I read her a little bit. The lights went out around ten-thirtyish or ten-forty.

Maybe while JR and BR were building that toy in the living room, PR and JB were in the kitchen getting a snack. (pineapple and tea) Maybe JB wanted to go in the living room too to watch her Dad and Brother. Afraid she would spill...PR put her drink in a sippy cup.

Did he say he "read there a little bit" or he "read for (fer) a litle bit" or he "read (to) her a little bit."???? "The lights" went out"????? Doesn't that sound like the power went out? I would think he'd say "we turned our lights off around ten-thirtyish or ten-forty." It sounds to me like he might have slipped a little that he read to JB and had to go in the kids rooms at ten-thirty or ten-forty to say, "OK, LIGHTS OUT!!!"

Did anyone else feel that way after reading JR's quote?

Steely,

This is where its made up as we move along. Initially he read a story to JonBenet. This was later retracted and replaced with he read a little, citing that the interviewing officer had misheard him.

John is suggesting they all went to bed by 10:40 pm , but the pineapple in JonBenet's stomach contradicts this.


.

 

[UKGuy]

Yep, her coat was later found in the car. I just don't believe that she was asleep at all. I believe Burke's initial story about her walking in with everyone else...and helping to carry presents. I mean...how do you confuse that with ...her being asleep and being carried upstairs by JR? I know that even ST said that he believed that Burke was confused. This is one time that I disagree with ST. Patsy said that she was "zonked out" and that is why she didn't wake up while being brought upstairs...and having her boots removed.

Ames,

Its a curious detail to be confused about. "zonked out", sounds as if she has been deliberately drugged.

Anyway the pineapple snack gives the game away. With all the obvious evidence the only way they ever thought they could evade justice must be via some kind of conspiracy?


.

 

[Steely]

Ames,

Its a curious detail to be confused about. "zonked out", sounds as if she has been deliberately drugged.

Anyway the pineapple snack gives the game away. With all the obvious evidence the only way they ever thought they could evade justice must be via some kind of conspiracy?


.

UKGuy, great point! I've never used the expression...so I looked it up.

zonked [zɒŋkt]
adj Slang
1. (Law / Recreational Drugs) highly intoxicated from drugs or alcohol
2. utterly exhausted

Words and idioms can have multiple meanings and it is easy to misunderstand someone's intended meaning (or Freudian slips). A friend of mine uses "passed-out" to mean utterly exhausted and sound asleep...NOT from alcohol. She said to someone, "Gosh, you sure were passed-out last night!" And the gal flipped out and insisted she had NOT been drinking. Age, generation, regional differences, family "slang" can have a huge impact. Not being able to see body language and facial expressions makes deciphering meaning much more difficult.

As far as the pineapple snack...does anyone know what kind of bowl it was in and if there was plastic wrap found that had been over it? I think Patsy gave it to her and she drank tea with her but I can't rule out that the kids fixed a snack for themselves. If I knew more about the pineapple it would help...as in... was it leftovers in a bowl with plastic wrap which JB could have gotten herself? Or did someone OPEN a can and put it in a bowl? Or was this FRESH pineapple? I know some kids like tea...still confused on what kind, how made, sweetened, etc. Anyone know more details? Thanks.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, great point! I've never used the expression...so I looked it up.

zonked [zɒŋkt]
adj Slang
1. (Law / Recreational Drugs) highly intoxicated from drugs or alcohol
2. utterly exhausted

Words and idioms can have multiple meanings and it is easy to misunderstand someone's intended meaning (or Freudian slips). A friend of mine uses "passed-out" to mean utterly exhausted and sound asleep...NOT from alcohol. She said to someone, "Gosh, you sure were passed-out last night!" And the gal flipped out and insisted she had NOT been drinking. Age, generation, regional differences, family "slang" can have a huge impact. Not being able to see body language and facial expressions makes deciphering meaning much more difficult.

As far as the pineapple snack...does anyone know what kind of bowl it was in and if there was plastic wrap found that had been over it? I think Patsy gave it to her and she drank tea with her but I can't rule out that the kids fixed a snack for themselves. If I knew more about the pineapple it would help...as in... was it leftovers in a bowl with plastic wrap which JB could have gotten herself? Or did someone OPEN a can and put it in a bowl? Or was this FRESH pineapple? I know some kids like tea...still confused on what kind, how made, sweetened, etc. Anyone know more details? Thanks.

Steely,

It was fresh pineapple, from Safeway if my memory is ok. I think JonBenet had hers served in a small bowl and she used a spoon to feed herself? Again from memory Patsy's fingerprints were on the glass bowl which contained the pineapple. There are crime-scene photo's showing the table as it was left from the night before.

.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Steely,

It was fresh pineapple, from Safeway if my memory is ok. I think JonBenet had hers served in a small bowl and she used a spoon to feed herself? Again from memory Patsy's fingerprints were on the glass bowl which contained the pineapple. There are crime-scene photo's showing the table as it was left from the night before.

.

I also seem to remember that Patsy acted amazed that someone had drank tea from a glass with a teabag. This makes me think one of two things:
1- She is the person who drank it.
2- Burke is the person who drank it and she knows it

 

[UKGuy]

I also seem to remember that Patsy acted amazed that someone had drank tea from a glass with a teabag. This makes me think one of two things:
1- She is the person who drank it.
2- Burke is the person who drank it and she knows it

joeskidbeck,

Yes, Burke was cited as the tea-drinker in the family.


.