South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #2

[Estelle]

His version of events didn't change.

[Practice makes perfect. He had 4 hours to rehearse it]

Malan is Afrikaans, but took statement in English because Henri didn't understand Afrikaans.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-18-20170525

However, Afrikaans would have been Henri's first language. How old was he when he went to Australia?

 

[Estelle]

Did he ever say anything incriminating? No, Malan says.

Botha now cross examining.

He says 95% of what Malan has said is a first for him.

Col Benecke had requested a statement, and it was decided that Malan should do it.

From De Zalze, they went to Dr Albertse. Doesn't recall DNA evidence being taken, but knows of the J88.

Botha says they first went form De Zalze to police station to collect the J88 and evidence bags before taken to doctor.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-18-20170525

BBM So Henri must have lied about what happened that day to Botha to make himself sound more like a victim eg deprived of food and no T-shirt so he was cold, etc.

 

[Estelle]

At Dr Albertse, he was in blue boxer shorts, that is also what Albertse says, Botha tells him.

Botha seems to be getting angry.

With that, court adjourns till Monday 10am.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-18-20170525

So Henri must have removed the T-shirt he wore when giving his witness statement so he could "show off" his injuries from the attackers to the doctors and anyone else to get sympathy.

 

[Estelle]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Adv G: From the first time since u spoke to him did to his statement did his statement change? yes
i asked for explanation when I physically took statement and it changed ( *I think he said it changed)

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-18-20170525
His version of events didn't change.

I find that confusing. So why all the fuss if the statement did not change?

 

[Estelle]

It's difficult to work out what might have happened.

A pool of Rudi's blood on the bed that Martin was on. I believe that might have been Henri's bed.

Rudi on the floor next to the bathroom and his blood smeared (not spattered) on the wall between bedroom and bathroom (don't know how high up).

Martin hit from behind. It makes no sense that he could be lower than the attacker (Henri) if he was approaching from on the bed. Why would he even be going over the bed, and not across the floor? He did not try to defend himself but I contend that even if he was going in for a rugby tackle with Henri he would hold his hands in a way to protect himself if needs be.

Therefore I believe Henri ambushed him from behind. But I do wonder why he would put in a different version to what he actually did. Did he hit Martin from behind and then Martin fell forwards onto the bed that Rudi had gone to to try to get away from Henri? Why did the doctor think Rudi had been lying on his right side, if he had injuries to both fists? It sounds like he could have punched Henri.

Possibly Rudi either managed to move off the bed after Henri left to attack his mum, or was moving violently and dropped off the bed.

I now believe the statement they are arguing over could relate to whether he said Rudi was alive or not. Hmm, what are the implications here? I can see that Henri would not have known that day that there would be blood in Rudi's stomach. I wonder why he never mentioned that Rudi was lying on the floor near the bathroom after the attack.

I hope the blood spatter expert is a decent witness.

BBM From what the Doctor said, Rudi would not have been alive for 2 hours 20 minutes.

I don't think that HvB wanted to say that Rudi was near the bathroom as HvB himself was supposedly in there watching.

 

[Estelle]

I have caught up on this local-to-me case over the past week. It was highly disturbing to read of the post-mortems. How terrifying their last moments must have been.

I was wondering if some of Rudi's and Henri's injuries relate to a physical fight earlier the evening. Damaged fists, swollen eyes, etc. Henri might have been brooding over it after Rudi had gone to bed. And then decided on revenge. Maybe he never intended to kill them all, but then had to follow through as his father walked in on them.

In the emergency call, Henri only mentions his sister as still being alive. I just don't get why it he would need to change his story. He is not a doctor and not expected to have made an accurate assessment at the time.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

BBM That is an interesting idea that Rudi and Henri could have had a physical fight during the argument between 10am and midnight and Henri wanted revenge. HvB was probably jealous of Rudi's success in his academic studies. Perhaps the parents were always comparing them. But for HvB to try to get away with it, he had to murder all family members so there were no witnesses.

 

[JudgeJudi]

:welcome4: Leana

RSBM

"I was wondering if some of Rudi's and Henri's injuries relate to a physical fight earlier the evening. Damaged fists, swollen eyes, etc. Henri might have been brooding over it after Rudi had gone to bed. And then decided on revenge. Maybe he never intended to kill them all, but then had to follow through as his father walked in on them".

That's a very intriguing thought, and I like it for a number of reasons.

Rudi was lying on his side in bed and had possible defensive wounds on his fingers. He would hardly be raising him arms to defend himself from fists, and why would HvB use his fists when he was armed with an axe, and probably the knife as well.

Martin was hit from behind with the axe.

Teresa faced her attacker, was struck with the axe, had defensive wounds and died within seconds.

That only leaves Marli who had extensive defensive wounds and put up a very brave fight before she was hit with the axe. I can't see her giving HvB two black eyes.

So it may very well have transpired that these were caused in the extremely heated argument between 10:00 and 12:00, and in all probability Rudi or Martin caused them.

news24 has been conducting a poll and 80%+ think he's guilty. I probably don't need to ask, but what is the feeling over in SA?

 

[JudgeJudi]

RSBM

I don't think that HvB wanted to say that Rudi was near the bathroom as HvB himself was supposedly in there watching.

And if pigs had wings they would fly.

 

[JudgeJudi]

However, Afrikaans would have been Henri's first language. How old was he when he went to Australia?

All 3 children were born in Pretoria SA.
HvB was born on 1 November 1994.
He started school in Pretoria in 2001 and would have been 6 at the start of the year.
At the beginning of 2006 the family emigrated to Perth. He would have been 11 at the start of the year.

There’s no way in the wide world he did not speak and understand Afrikaans

 

[Tortoise]

I find that confusing. So why all the fuss if the statement did not change?

The State's case is that Henri changed his version between the making of his statement that day, and the making of his plea statement for the trial.

The part that is confusing (from the court reporting) is whether he also changed his version that day, from what he told them the first time he spoke to them to when he made his signed statement.

 

[JudgeJudi]

:welcome6: chinacat

Like others, I have been following along quietly (from the states on off hours for SA) and want to thank those of you posting the trial info/tweets. It's incredibly sad but compelling stuff and I am​ grateful for your hard work that allows us to follow along!

Sent from my SM

Thank you for joining in. It's lovely to see new faces as we're so few in number. We'd love to have you join in the conversation.

 

[Tortoise]

BBM That is an interesting idea that Rudi and Henri could have had a physical fight during the argument between 10am and midnight and Henri wanted revenge. HvB was probably jealous of Rudi's success in his academic studies. Perhaps the parents were always comparing them. But for HvB to try to get away with it, he had to murder all family members so there were no witnesses.

I don't discount the possibility that Rudi and Henri had a punch up earlier on, but something tells me that this was not a spur of the moment family massacre to kill witnesses. I think it was to get the family money, he had a long-standing sense of injury, being a narcissist, and entitlement, and had perhaps been exposed during the argument. That pirate game or cartoon or whatever it was might also have pumped him up, after he had the idea to murder them all.

The way the family was drawn in that night/morning was premeditated. He would attract the attention of his father or mother to ambush them, and deal with them one by one as they approached.

He is fortunate that Theresa and Marli didn't manage to escape and raise the alarm before he could attack them. If Theresa hadn't yet seen inside the bedroom she wouldn't have guessed what Henri had done in there and would have had no reason to try to escape as her first course of action. I think each of them intervened thinking they could diffuse a fight and then to help the others before any thoughts of running to safety could kick in. It sounds like Marli really put up a fight and I wouldn't be surprised if she pushed Henri down the stairs, but he came back.

 

[Tortoise]

I wish we had a layout diagram of the house.

 

[Tortoise]

All 3 children were born in Pretoria SA.
HvB was born on 1 November 1994.
He started school in Pretoria in 2001 and would have been 6 at the start of the year.
At the beginning of 2006 the family emigrated to Perth. He would have been 11 at the start of the year.

There’s no way in the wide world he did not speak and understand Afrikaans

I would also say there is no way he wouldn't have known the emergency numbers. Not only from the list on the fridge, but a mother who cares enough to stick a list on the fridge also cares enough to teach her children, IMO, especially living in a country where crime is rife.

 

[Tortoise]

JJ, I see you are still having a quote problem. Have you tried sticking a forward slash / before the last Quote in brackets? Not that you should have to do it manually, but just until the problem is fixed.

 

[Interested Bystander]

All 3 children were born in Pretoria SA.
HvB was born on 1 November 1994.
He started school in Pretoria in 2001 and would have been 6 at the start of the year.
At the beginning of 2006 the family emigrated to Perth. He would have been 11 at the start of the year.

There’s no way in the wide world he did not speak and understand Afrikaans

Something tells me he said he did not speak in Afrikaans (even though we know he can) to make it more difficult for the SA officer taking his statement. If the officer's English was not perfect he would then claim that the officer misunderstood/misinterpreted what he had said.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I wish we had a layout diagram of the house.

Me too AND a diagram of where the bodies/bloodstains were.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I don't discount the possibility that Rudi and Henri had a punch up earlier on, but something tells me that this was not a spur of the moment family massacre to kill witnesses. I think it was to get the family money, he had a long-standing sense of injury, being a narcissist, and entitlement, and had perhaps been exposed during the argument. That pirate game or cartoon or whatever it was might also have pumped him up, after he had the idea to murder them all.

The way the family was drawn in that night/morning was premeditated. He would attract the attention of his father or mother to ambush them, and deal with them one by one as they approached.

He is fortunate that Theresa and Marli didn't manage to escape and raise the alarm before he could attack them. If Theresa hadn't yet seen inside the bedroom she wouldn't have guessed what Henri had done in there and would have had no reason to try to escape as her first course of action. I think each of them intervened thinking they could diffuse a fight and then to help the others before any thoughts of running to safety could kick in. It sounds like Marli really put up a fight and I wouldn't be surprised if she pushed Henri down the stairs, but he came back.

BIB
My feeling is that if they thought there were real intruders, Theresa and Marli would have run from the property and probably used their phones to call for help.

 

[Estelle]

Me too AND a diagram of where the bodies/bloodstains were.

I remember there being one which was published but Botha said that journalist was jumping the gun. I saw it but could not save it. It was around the time the Judge visited the house.

 

[Interested Bystander]

You can find a few hand drawings of the injuries here but no placement of the bodies:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...etails-Van-Breda-family-murders-revealed.html