South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #3

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B: did he then concede that it was in fact you that had collected the samples of possible blood in the shower

B: in that same bundle turn to exVV1- sorry u collected all the swabs in the bathroom? J: thats correct

Page 9 refers to swabs taken from washing basin and evidence collector is indicated as Sgt Hitchcock

J: in the wash basin that was collected by Hitchcock? B: I thought u collected all the samples in this bathroom?

J: only the swabs in the shower and the shower handle and door

B: why does it say Hitchcock collected it on the form, when u collected it in Hitchcock's presence

J while I was in the shower he opened the kit handed it to me and I take the swab and then hand it back to him to place in the kit

Desai: so both of u were present when u took swabs
 
I wish J wouldn't interact directly with Botha, instead, while answering him, direct himself to Desai. Just getting bored and picky!
 
https://twitter.com/Traceyams

J he was responsible for the kit I assisted him with the sampling in the shower I didnt want him to come into the shower

B: regards collection of swabs on door handle and outside you collected the swabs? J correct

B: who is responsible for the detail here where u say it is 117 and changed to 118?

J you shouldnt do it but you can sign next to error

B also the seal is missing, is that acceptable? J its not acceptable but I cant see if the sides were sealed I only see the middle area so they may have sealed the sides

B: but it should be sealed on sides and the middle? J correct

B: here we clearly see the middle part is not sealed, J thats correct but can I just mention these swab collection kits are then sealed in the evidence bag on the scene

The forensic seal bag is proof of it being sealed

B: but surely the seals designed to serve a purpose, J: it does serve a purpose but could have been a mistake

B: the areas in the bathroom which initially tested positive for the possible presence of blood were retested with hemasticks

B: they also tested negative on those tests? J I wasnt aware that it tested negative

B: her statement was completed in June your report was 6 October
 
https://twitter.com/Traceyams

J: I didnt have her report,

Henri tells Botha he has the year wrong (someone is paying attention)

J I didnt have access to her report

B if you knew that her test was negative would u have included that in your report? J yes I would have

B: U collected samples inside shower and on the handle. Look at your notes last sentence refers to the previous examinations swabs
 
Void on Henri #VanBreda's bed, believed to be due to duvet moved and placed next to Rudi, could be partially caused by pillow? Joubert: yes.

Botha now dealing with blood in the bathroom

Blood in Van Breda brothers' shower: detected due to the use of Blue Star, Adv Botha asks. Captain Joubert confirms, says reaction was weak.

Captain Joubert says he took Van Breda bathroom samples.Paperwork says basin was swabbed by WO Hitchcock.

Joubert says he handled the shower.

Missing seal on one of swab evidence collection kits pointed out by Adv Botha. Joubert says kit also sealed in bag at #VanBreda crime scene.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-38-20170913
 
https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B: U collected samples inside shower and on the handle. Look at your notes last sentence refers to the previous examinations swabs

B: u say H collected the swabs J that was a general comment it was not entirely correct it was his responsibility to collect

B: u can only say possible blood detected J correct B you then say the donors of the blood stain was Rudi Henri and Teresa

B: but u dont say that u can read Teresa's dna into a mixture, but u were subsequently made aware - J correct

B: where in that state did Otto say the blood of all 3 was present in the shower as opposed to the DNA of all 3 being present

J: no its only the DNA,

B: thats my point why did you write the donors of the blood stain are those 3
 
https://twitter.com/Traceyams

J: the results of the test I did indicate there was possible blood

B: but that doesn't strengthen your point, why did u not point it out?

B: u did examination and got a weak blue star, correct, so much so that u didnt want to do a second test to not risk diluting

B: then DNA was found. So u know possible blood and DNA was found

J: that swab to me was possible blood

B: but u conceded the only thing Otto told u was that the DNA was found not blood

B: she also told this court she cant say the source she can only say its DNA she cant say its blood DNA or not

B: I am asking you to explain why you wrote that the blood of those donors was found?

B: but it could have been the blood of only one person?

Galloway objects

B: I am asking him why he chose to word his statement in his report when he had all the information at his disposal
 
https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B: would it not be more accurate saying "the possible donors or the donors could include all 3?" or could only include 2

J: I agree I could have been more specific

B: Did u test other showers?I tested other showers for blood, I didnt put it in my notes there wasn't possible blood other showers

B: we intend leading evidence of DNA expert, u will recall that a similar mixture was found on Henri's sleeping shorts

Otto testified that the DNA on these two places could have also been the DNA of Henri and Rudi

B: one step further, the gender markers of the swab in shower,percentage of X chromosomes are too low that it suggests there was no female DNA in that mixture sample

B: Henri will testify to say that he was in australia for a few months before he joined the family (he is going to testify!!!)

B: Before that his mother and father resided there alone so he doesnt know who used which bathroom?
 
https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B: but what he will say is that what happens from time to time, he would prefer to lie in the bath with a book and then his mother would then use the shower of his room which was his own room before his brother joined in December 2014

B: if we accept that would it be strange to find the DNA of family members in the shower? J: no

B: his brother joined in december with Rudi's girlfriend and they made use of Marli's bedroom

Henri and Marli then shared Herni's bedroom, but this was prior to Rudi's girlfriend returning to Australia

B: so it may not have been strange to even find blood dna of those family members in the shower? J: correct

Desai: do u know how long DNA lasts? J: no I don't

B: something like Blue star can give a false positive due to for example cleaning materials, J: thats correct
 
https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Desai; for how long does blood remain in shower?

It depends how often u use shower, it becomes diluted

J: that may explain the very weak result from the blue star

B: refer to work and collections of possible blood from the axe on 20 February 2015 - J: thats correct

B: u took 4 swabs from the axe handle and you took swabs from the blade

B: u did this roughly 3 weeks after incident,these were in addition to the swabs WO Hitchcock took when he collected from the scene

B: on the ones H did, 3 of them were blood and 1 one was touch DNA

B: my clients blood was found on the bottom of the axe handle

B: on the head of the axe, including your swabs and swabs taken by Hitchcock, the DNA of Teresa, Martin and Rudi was found

B: some mixtures too, J: I havent seen the report on those swabs. B: I can tell u those were results J: I accept
 
Capt Joubert listed shower reaction as blood stain. Lt Col Otto said it was DNA.
Joubert says reaction meant could've been blood.

Adv Botha: Did you test floors in other showers in Van Breda house?

He did, Joubert says. Didn't add it to his report.

Adv Botha: according to Henri Van Breda, it wasn't strange for them to use each other's bathrooms. Could that explain blood?

It could, Joubert says.

Some cleaning chemicals can result in Blue Star giving a false positive, Adv Botha says. Correct, Joubert says.

Blood gets diluted when shower is used, and eventually won't be detected with Blue Star, Capt Joubert explains.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-38-20170913
 
Are we now to believe that the attacker had his own axe? If so, who owned the second axe that had everyone's DNA except Marli's?
 
https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B: on my clients shorts no blood of Marli was found? J: thats correct

B: no DNA or blood of Marli was found on his socks and similarly not a single drop of Marli's blood was found on axe

B: no DNA or blood of Marli was found on his socks and similarly not a single drop of Marli's blood was found on axe

B: we also know that Marli was hit repeatedly with an item similar to an axe? J: that is correct

B: we know from Dr Anthony (pathologist) who described marlis injuries as being similar to the injuries of the deceased

B: u have access to Marli's medical report, so u can confirm she sustained a number of head wounds similar to those sustained by the other family members? J yes.

B: in fact Anthony told us she was probably involved in a far more sever scuffling

B: Marlis injuries indicative of a much more sever struggling or scuffling

B: how do u explain the complete absence of DNA or blood of Marli lets start on the axe? J: I cant explain it

B: we had another witness James Jahn who testified in court that he didnt recognise this axe the axe he saw in the house was black

Desai: no he remembered the part that is dark green looked black to him

B: he was explaining why he initially told the police he recognised the axe because he thought it was black before it was cleaned

Desai: if that axe was used in 3 murders do u not think it doesnt show as much blood as expected

J: the injuries sustained by marli were not concentrated every time there was a new laceration blood would impart

Desai: could it be that the axe was cleaned? J: it could be

When u hit first victim alot of blood on the axe and on the second victim blood will project from the first victim off the axe

and the same pattern would apply - this is specualation, Desai says lets not go there an axe was used to kill 3 people back to B

Desai: u were explaining how Marli's injuries spread out
 
https://twitter.com/Traceyams

J: when u create a wound the first blow will bring blood to surface if you hit them on different areas chance of transferring blood

B: Anthony testified that the deceased woudl have bled profusely and quickly from those head wounds J: agree

B: we have also heard of the lockhart principle, and Marli's touch DNA was found on the handle of the axe,we dont know when she touched the axe but just a touch was found there but what are the chances of her sustaining multiple wounds to her ear, head and side of neck?

J: I am not sure,the touch DNA could have been Marli grabbing the axe as she has a defensive wound on her arm

B: my point is how, if she was attacked with that axe her blood dna would not be on that axe

B: my client from day one made mention that there was more than one person in that house? he said so in his plea explanation

B: so do u agree that if Marli was attacked with another object similar to this axe that would explain why DNA is not on this axe

It would also explain why her DNA wasnt on his shorts or socks

J: quotes article"the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

B: did u find any blood of anybody underneath the socks my client was wearing

J: I didnt examine the underneath part as he would have stepped into blood obvious to have been there
 
No DNA of Marli Van Breda found on Henri's shorts or socks. Nor on axe, Adv Botha says. Correct, Joubert responds.

Dr Anthony, who did post mortems on Van Breda family, said Marli's injuries similar to that of parents and brother.

Dr Anthony said Marli Van Breda was probably involved in severe struggle/scuffle with attacker. Why no blood on shorts, socks, axe, Botha asks.

Capt Joubert can't explain absence of Marli's blood. Axe could possibly have been cleaned, he speculates after Judge Desai asks.

Capt Joubert explains if you strike different areas with the axe, possibility of blood transfer minimal; creating new wounds.

What are chances of Marli Van Breda's blood - with neck, head wounds - not being found on axe ?It would be expected to be there, Joubert says.

Adv Botha insists his expert says it's impossible that Marli's blood would not be on weapon. Capt Joubert concedes.

Botha: Henri Van Breda in plea explanation said more than one person in house. If Marli attacked with another object, would explain blood absence?

It would also explain why her DNA wasn't on his shorts or socks, Botha says.

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence", Joubert says.

Court breaks for lunch.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-38-20170913
 
Love this -

Joubert says absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
 
I'm back and see that Botha is timewasting again. There were three murders with blood splatter all over Henri's shorts and B is arguing over whether somebody else, months ago, could have used the shower. How on earth is that going to make any difference to the story? Even if Henri hadn't showered, he is quite obviously as guilty as hell. I wish Desai would tell B to stop procrastinating.

Good that Desai shot B down for attempting to mislead with incorrect recall about evidence. I wish we had had Desai on the OP case. He surely would have put him away for life.

I wonder how long B is going to drag this out. I haven't read anything from the court proceedings today that has taken the story forward one iota.

So Botha is suggesting that Henri is going to testify. Personally I doubt it but if he does he will surely "hang" himself.


Many thanks JJ and Prime. Always excellent input.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Members online

... and 211 more.
Total: 2,351 (members: 212, guests: 2,139)

Online statistics

Members online
212
Guests online
2,139
Total visitors
2,351
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
599,782
Messages
18,099,508
Members
230,922
Latest member
NellyKim
Back
Top