South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #3

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Tracey seems to be suggesting there possibly was another person involved in the murders but we already know there is no evidence of any intruders on the estate that night and all footprints were accounted for at the murder scene. Desai stopped and corrected Botha when he tried to suggest there was another axe that was of a different colour. Marli left a touch print on the axe which leads to the assumption that she touched it in the struggle. She obviously did not bleed out the same way as the other members of the family or she too would be dead. This could explain the lack of spatter on his clothes. It is intriguing that there was none of Marli's blood on the axe blade but Henri could have washed the blade and then smeared it with the blood of the other three as a way of giving himself an alibi. He spent four hours thinking up his alibi before calling for help. There is no way he was unconscious for any length of time. If he did faint, which I highly doubt, it would be shortlived as once one is lying down one recovers very quickly.
 
Ahttp://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-38-20170913

AS IT HAPPENED: Marli's blood missing from axe

Interesting vote being carried out on News24 which at the time of posting showed 83 per cent think HVB is guilty, 12 per cent undecided and 5 per cent think he is telling the truth.

Total of votes at the time was 53.5K
 
Yesterday was one of those days that causes sleepless nights for me. I have to pinch myself and remember the following:

In considering a circumstantial case, all of the circumstances established by the evidence are to be considered and weighed in deciding whether there is an inference consistent with innocence reasonably open on the evidence. The evidence must be considered as a whole and not by a piecemeal approach to each particular circumstance.

The totality of the evidence to date has been overwhelmingly in favour of the State.

Here's a comforting reminder of just one very important piece of evidence:

According to Adv Botha, Henri regained consciousness 2 hours 40 mins later after fainting from seeing his mother and Marli.

Dr Tiemensma said that concussion is a mild brain injury, loss of consciousness for a couple of seconds at most. But more than 90% of concussions doesn't result in loss of consciousness.

You can read much of her evidence here:

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-16-20170523
 
Interested Bystander said:
Ahttp://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-38-20170913

AS IT HAPPENED: Marli's blood missing from axe

Interesting vote being carried out on News24 which at the time of posting showed 83 per cent think HVB is guilty, 12 per cent undecided and 5 per cent think he is telling the truth.

Total of votes at the time was 53.5K
Click to expand...

This poll has never dropped below 82% to my knowledge, and I've never seen one person suggesting he's innocent anywhere on the internet.
 
Hmmm, an interesting turn of events.

What if Marli was standing directly behind Teresa while HvB was striking her and her mother with the axe, he is quite tall much taller than his brother and father.

It's hard for me to explain in writing.... Teresa was basically an interference in the blows that Marli was taking to the head before Teresa fell to the ground, her mother was a shield. So the cuts were made quick and deep but not much blood letting like the others. Marli fell down straight after her mother, she had touched the axe during the attack. Also, HvB would not have Marli's blood spatter on him as Teresa was in front, HvB does have Teresa's blood splatter on his shorts.

Then what happened, that's the big question. HvB had over 3 hours to mess with the crime scene!

What knife was used to cut Marli's throat? I'm assuming it's a different one, maybe it's in the dishwasher or back in the block, not tested.
Why move Rudi off the bed? Why throw the duvet over the pool of blood at foot of bed? An intruder wouldn't care about these trivialities, only the person who lives at the home would care. I believe there was a different story to be told and it was changed at the last minute.

We now know the knife was on the bed during the axe attack of Rudi and Martin, (the blood splatter left an outline of the knife on the duvet) so HvB was prepared with 2 weapons?

Did HvB wear some kind of footwear?

There was blood spatter on the dog's pillow in her bed, where was the dog? Why was she taken away and locked up? Why didn't she bark when the intruders entered the home and one came up the stairs? HvB never mentions the dog.
 
What knife was used to cut Marli's throat? I'm assuming it's a different one, maybe it's in the dishwasher or back in the block, not tested.
Click to expand...

I have been wondering about that knife too.
Teresa was basically an interference in the blows that Marli was taking to the head before Teresa fell to the ground, her mother was a shield. So the cuts were made quick and deep but not much blood letting like the others. Marli fell down straight after her mother, she had touched the axe during the attack. Also, HvB would not have Marli's blood spatter on him as Teresa was in front, HvB does have Teresa's blood splatter on his shorts.
Click to expand...

I agree with your theory that Teresa could have been Marli's shield. Perhaps Marli fell down after Teresa did and she either became unconscious or pretended to be dead so she would not be hit any more.

There was blood spatter on the dog's pillow in her bed, where was the dog? Why was she taken away and locked up? Why didn't she bark when the intruders entered the home and one came up the stairs? HvB never mentions the dog.
Click to expand...

Let's hope that HvB is asked questions about the dog when he gives evidence.
 
Lots of anomalies with Marli.

I'll see if I can think of them all -

1. She didn't die.
2. In his initial statement Henri never mentioned seeing her as he first left the bedroom to run down the stairs, yet his bedroom light was on (and the parent's bedroom light was on), casting light onto the landing.
3. No spatter on Henri.
4. No dna in the shower.
5. No blood on the axe.

I think it's important that he didn't mention seeing Marli at that stage in his first statement, but did in his plea explanation. At the police station he didn't know if Marli would recover, and tell a different story to him. By the time of his plea statement he knows Marli has amnesia.

I think it was said they had to move Teresa to rescue Marli, so were they entangled to some extent? If Teresa went down first, why would Marli be under any part of her? I don't think they would have moved Teresa unless it was absolutely necessary. There could be another explanation like Teresa was blocking their ability to stand next to Marli, and not on top of Marli. I would like to have heard if Marli's blood spatter was on top of Teresa - maybe it's there and I've missed it.

I'm going to rack my brains to come up with a scenario for Marli. It may just be that her spatter direction was different, or Teresa or the wall next to the doorway were between Marli and Henri.

The other thing that's bothering me is Rudi's blood on the stair wall underneath the axe hole, and Henri's blood being on the axe handle -

a. If Rudi was attacked first his blood got on the axe first, and that axe was then used to attack at least Martin and Teresa, and in the most likely sequence, probably Marli. Rudi being the only donor of the blood on the wall beneath the axe hole, after two or three more attacks, is very unlikely.
b. Henri washed blood spatter off his skin. Galloway confirmed that there was no spatter on his body in the ambulance, yet we know there was lots of spatter on his shorts and socks. That's not how blood spatter behaves. Henri's wounds were created after his shower - the drips from them were evident, so had not been washed away when he washed off the family blood.
c. If Henri attacked everyone, showered, then cut himself and got blood on the axe handle (purposely), any of Rudi's blood left on the axe would have been minimal after it was swung around and used to attack the others and the blood would have started to dry on the axe by the time he had showered and cut himself.

I think it looks like he loaded up the axe with Rudi's blood again, to create a trail for the axe throwing stunt, because it would be obvious he'd done it some time later if the blood was dry and not still dripping.

I have a vague memory of thinking that they didn't take many swabs from the blood on the axe. Maybe they were slightly careless and assumed it would yield mixed results from all the victims, and when it didn't it was too late to retest it because it had been cleaned up. Who cleans a murder weapon before trial, and why?

Maybe he had to clean the axe blade before he put it into Rudi's blood because he thought it would be obvious fresh blood had been layered on top of dried blood.

I'm still thinking through the possibilities. Have a great day everyone, and massive thanks from me too, to JJ and Prime! :)
 
Hi Everyone :wave: Nice comfy lounge, enjoy!

Sofitel_St_James_-_Rose_Lounge_-_Main_1.jpg
 
Tortoise said:
Lots of anomalies with Marli.

I'll see if I can think of them all -

1. She didn't die.
2. In his initial statement Henri never mentioned seeing her as he first left the bedroom to run down the stairs, yet his bedroom light was on (and the parent's bedroom light was on), casting light onto the landing.
3. No spatter on Henri.
4. No dna in the shower.
5. No blood on the axe.

I think it's important that he didn't mention seeing Marli at that stage in his first statement, but did in his plea explanation. At the police station he didn't know if Marli would recover, and tell a different story to him. By the time of his plea statement he knows Marli has amnesia.

I think it was said they had to move Teresa to rescue Marli, so were they entangled to some extent? If Teresa went down first, why would Marli be under any part of her? I don't think they would have moved Teresa unless it was absolutely necessary. There could be another explanation like Teresa was blocking their ability to stand next to Marli, and not on top of Marli. I would like to have heard if Marli's blood spatter was on top of Teresa - maybe it's there and I've missed it.

I'm going to rack my brains to come up with a scenario for Marli. It may just be that her spatter direction was different, or Teresa or the wall next to the doorway were between Marli and Henri.

The other thing that's bothering me is Rudi's blood on the stair wall underneath the axe hole, and Henri's blood being on the axe handle -

a. If Rudi was attacked first his blood got on the axe first, and that axe was then used to attack at least Martin and Teresa, and in the most likely sequence, probably Marli. Rudi being the only donor of the blood on the wall beneath the axe hole, after two or three more attacks, is very unlikely.
b. Henri washed blood spatter off his skin. Galloway confirmed that there was no spatter on his body in the ambulance, yet we know there was lots of spatter on his shorts and socks. That's not how blood spatter behaves. Henri's wounds were created after his shower - the drips from them were evident, so had not been washed away when he washed off the family blood.
c. If Henri attacked everyone, showered, then cut himself and got blood on the axe handle (purposely), any of Rudi's blood left on the axe would have been minimal after it was swung around and used to attack the others and the blood would have started to dry on the axe by the time he had showered and cut himself.

I think it looks like he loaded up the axe with Rudi's blood again, to create a trail for the axe throwing stunt, because it would be obvious he'd done it some time later if the blood was dry and not still dripping.

I have a vague memory of thinking that they didn't take many swabs from the blood on the axe. Maybe they were slightly careless and assumed it would yield mixed results from all the victims, and when it didn't it was too late to retest it because it had been cleaned up. Who cleans a murder weapon before trial, and why?

Maybe he had to clean the axe blade before he put it into Rudi's blood because he thought it would be obvious fresh blood had been layered on top of dried blood.

I'm still thinking through the possibilities. Have a great day everyone, and massive thanks from me too, to JJ and Prime! :)
Click to expand...

Thank you Tortoise for your detail explanation, I will read it over again later because it's very important, just wanted to say, this explains why Rudi was moved.
 
Hi JJ, I can only do Tracey's tweets until 12.30pm (8.30pm our time) could you take over, thanks. :tyou:
 
https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

J: clarifies some points, he didn't take notes of tests done with blue star in the other bathrooms

B: want to correct that Marli sustained 8 wounds, 5 on upper skulls, 1 on neck, 1 on arm and 1 almost severing her left ear

B: There was severe struggle going on btwn Marli and attacker,you would expect her blood would end up on the clothes of attacker

J: it's possible, B says better answer is probable

B: also blood from wounds would have flung off, given there was so much of it?

B: is it possible that absence of his blood on his legs and torso can be explained by the belief that my client cleaned himself?
J: it's possible that he cleaned himself


https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

B:Marli was hit 8 times with a weapon&there was a struggle. Blood or DNA from Marli should be on Henri's clothes

J: it's possible.

B: and there should be blood of Marli on weapon as well..? J: depends on how hard she was hit.

B asks why there was no blood spatter on Henri's body if he was in close proximity to blood source during attack.

J says there is a possibility the attacker cleaned himself after attack.
 
https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

B: impact spatter stains at back of socks could be because he was facing away from the attacker? J: Possible

B: in your view if Axe was thrown uncontrolled at wall , a longer cast off stain would be formed

J: yes it would reach as high as ceiling

B: do you know how hard he threw the Axe, or how many rotations it made through the air? J: I don't know

B: out expert Mr Steyl bought a similar axe, threw Axe from approx 4m, it only rotated once

https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

Henri's left sock had blood spatter on back of sock.Botha asks how Henri's left ankle could have been turned to face blood source.

Joubert says he doesn't know how his ankle could be turned for back of foot to face blood source.

B to J: you said if axe was thrown at wall in uncontrolled manner, you would have expected more of a cast off pattern.

B: But you don't know how hard he threw axe or how many rotations it did before hitting wall.
 
[video=youtube;BkVBAlacviA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkVBAlacviA[/video]

There is a sound problem News24 is working on it.
 
Adv Botha says severe struggle between Marli Van Breda and attacker, who hit, pulled back 8 times. Probable blood on person?

Joubert: possible.

Blood on Henri Van Breda limited to shorts and socks. Adv Botha asks possibility he cleaned himself?

It is a possibility, Capt Joubert says.

Botha: Could the impact spatter stains at back of his socks be because he was facing away from the attacker?

Joubert: Possible.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-39-20170914
 
https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

B: it Axe thrown from 1,5m it failed to rotate

J: what was the force applied, B: that's my point we don't know the force

J: there is a lot of variables, if you don't do that you are not objective

B: do you know which way my client was facing when he threw the Axe? J: no I don't

B: not demonstrated theory of axis of rotation


https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

B: our expert did his own experiments&found the axe didn't make a full rotation before hitting wall. J: yes that's possible.

B: you need 4m for an axe to make a full rotation. J: you can't say that as we don't know how hard it was thrown.

Judge pipes in that you would also need to know where the axe was thrown from...everyone agrees

B: "the axe's axis of rotation, if I can think back to my school days..."(Judge interrupts: that was a long time ago)

B and J getting into a debate about axe physics.
 
Capt Joubert expected a longer cast off blood stain against the wall from Henri Van Breda's claim of throwing axe, reaching as high as the ceiling.

Adv Botha asks if Capt Joubert knew Henri Van Breda's position, how many rotations axe made, how hard thrown?

Joubert concedes he doesn't.

Adv Botha: Cobus Steyl, ballistics expert for defence, threw axe from 1.5m, and impacted target without 1 rotation.

Joubert: Possible.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-39-20170914

You can watch on the above link.
 
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