South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #3

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[video=youtube;k5Gv0SKmhbk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Gv0SKmhbk[/video]

Back on but the sound is no good. :(
 
https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Finally arrived at court, Adv Botha is continuing the cross examination of Joubert

Botha, u concluded that blood stains on ceiling is the result of cast off in your notes

B: we know as a fact / given that a controlled movement of the axe impacted victim 1 possibly 2

And that movement caused the 4 additional drops on the ceiling?

J: the direction showed a back swing

J: the amount of blood and force will indicate a back v forward swing

B: Will back swing create less force? J: I am not saying that

J: it is also about the arc, volume, momentum

B: did u consider that if he threw axe, projection would have been downward at about 45 degrees? J - probably

B:lets look at unknowns, we dont know how much force?we dont know what amount of blood by cast-off, that amount to reproduce it

J; you could do multiple experiments to see the amount of blood that must have been on the axe and what force was

B: we dont know force, we dont know how much blood was on it, we also dont know how many times it turned


https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

B: The blood stains found on Henri and Rudi's ceiling are a result of cast off. J: those are a result of back swing not front.

B: force & amount of blood can determine cast off but we don't know that. J: that's true. B: We also don't know how many rotations
 
https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B: are u saying its impossible that the marking on the wall could have been caused by axe that was thrown?

J: taking into account my experience, experiments with axe I can definitely say it is my opinion that that axe was not thrown

Mr styl will say that given the fact he knows so little there are too many facts simply unknown to come to a conclusion either way

J: I would disagree you can use various methods, people etc to do different experiments and you would be able to reach a conclusion

B: Do you do any experiments? J: no I did not

B: the previous aspects you referred to was that with an axe, was it thrown? It wasnt thrown it was hit

J: the cast off did vary depends on the volumes

J asks where the 1.5m measurement was taken from

J: the axe struck the wall, where wall is and where railing starts is 2+/-m. So if he was throwing at 1.5m

B: captain, did you do any experiments of axe being thrown? J: no, only of hitting with axe.


https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

Joubert: My experience & experiments leads to my opinion that that axe WAS NOT thrown.

B: But there are too many unknown variables. (Defense blood spatter expert says he will do new experiments)

B: captain, did you do any experiments of axe being thrown? J: no, only of hitting with axe.
 
Adv Botha and Capt Joubert discussing centrifugal force relating to throwing of axe. Botha arguing its basic high school science.

Botha lists unknowns: how much force axe impacted wall, amount of blood on axe, how many rotations, thrown overhead or straight?

Are you saying scenario is impossible, Adv Botha asks.

It's my opinion that that axe was not thrown, Captain Joubert says.

Morning tea

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-39-20170914
 
https://twitter.com/Traceyams

J demonstrates on those measurements Henri would have been near enough to hit the intruder why would he throw the axe

B is saying that is a false impression, that it is not 1.5m from where J is measuring

No measuring tape in court Desai says, he will decide if its a false impression or not and asks for a measuring tape

we adjourn for tea to get the measuring tape




https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

J: it's not just about force and amount of blood it's also about the arc of the swing.thats how we determine if it's a back swing.

B: If he threw axe from somewhere on stairs, trajectory would be downward. J: that's correct.

B: force & amount of blood can determine cast off but we don't know that. J: that's true. B: We also don't know how many rotations.

B: But there are too many unknown variables. (Defense blood spatter expert says he will do new experiments)

B: captain, did you do any experiments of axe being thrown? J: no, only of hitting with axe.

J: why would you throw the axe if he was in such close promximity (1.5m) when you could hit the person with axe?

Court taking a break while we get a measuring device for J to show what he means...
 
Joubert gets off the stand to demonstrate with the axe

Captain Joubert handles axe, tells court orderly "don't worry". Does a practical demonstration for Judge Desai.

Joubert demonstrates how Henri would have been near enough to hit the intruder .

Joubert: Why would you throw an axe at someone when you can hit them directly with it?

Botha says that is a false impression, that it is not 1.5m from where Joubert is measuring.

Desai says he will decide if its a false impression. Court breaks to source a measuring tape.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-39-20170914
 
OMG, I can't believe Joubert is only saying NOW that in his opinion the axe was not thrown. Galloway should have got this crucial bit of evidence out when he was giving his evidence in chief.

I've always had grave doubts about her but now I'm truly stunned. If Desai finds him guilty, it won't be because of her.
 
JudgeJudi said:
OMG, I can't believe Joubert is only saying NOW that in his opinion the axe was not thrown. Galloway should have got this crucial bit of evidence out when he was giving his evidence in chief.

I've always had grave doubts about her but now I'm truly stunned. If Desai finds him guilty, it won't be because of her.
Click to expand...

JJ if there's time, can you explain this for me? Bit slow on the uptake here! Why is it so important? What difference does it make?
 
L2L said:
JJ if there's time, can you explain this for me? Bit slow on the uptake here! Why is it so important? What difference does it make?
Click to expand...

If it didn't come out in cross-examination, it wouldn't have come out at all. Galloway can't raise new evidence once he's left the stand and their case is closed unless there are exceptional circumstances, and this wouldn't fall into that category.
 
JudgeJudi said:
If it didn't come out in cross- examination, it wouldn't have come out at all.
Click to expand...

Yes, I see that! Thank you! I thought it a good move to take defence unawares! Shows how little I know!
 
https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

Still waiting on Judge Desai. We have a measuring device for Joubert's 'show'.

Judge asks photographers to not take photos during adjournments as it is influencing advocates work. We all agree.

Kick off. Botha opens with quelling Joubert's measuring tape act by saying my client does not know where he was when he threw axe.


https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B: starts- I never suggested to you my client was 1.5m away my client doesnt know where he was

B: I was putting to you that Styl says when he throws it at 1.5m it impacts on the target

B then says if he throws it from 1.5m he requires a distance of 4m for the axe to make one rotation and impact

B: I am not suggesting that my client was 1.5m or 4m. this is just the experiment conducted

B: demonstrates holding handle with blunt side of the blade facing forwards
 
https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B: we dont know the rotations the axe did or the force it was thrown etc and we would need to test a number of variables

B: Do u know exactly where the intruder was when my client threw the axe at him?J: no I dont

B:and we must accept that it was moving

B: we also dont know that he would have taken the option which u may have taken at that time

B: if you go to your paragraph 17.1 in your second report

B: shows a blood clot on knife and another photo where it appears as if clot is no longer there

B: You say there was a white stain which suggests when the knife moved to the bed the cloth fell off

The knife was moved to the bed by Hitchcock to collect samples from it (is this Botha or J?)

B: now showing photographs the defence handed up that are zoomed in on this particular blood clot on the knife

B: who moved the knife between the two process photographs? J: I dont know, should not have happened

B: U obv cant tell the court at exactly what stage and where Rudi's body was at the time he dropped stains on knife, you can only say that he must have been above the knife? J: thats correct

Desai: are there other possibilities? Yes there are a number of other possibilities it could have been exposed to blood spatter

B: u observed similarities btw shape of the knife blade and 138? U came to conclusion the transfer pattern on Duvet was blade of the knife? J correct B: is it possible those transfers could be explained by fabric folds?

J: Not in this case we made meaurements of the knife and I had two experts corroborate my opinion on this

J with fabric folds you will get creases not such defined lines

B: Is going to present experiment that Mr Styl did
 
Hi JJ, there's a bit of delay in the tweets, I will pass it over to you now. Thanks :)
 
JudgeJudi said:
OMG, I can't believe Joubert is only saying NOW that in his opinion the axe was not thrown. Galloway should have got this crucial bit of evidence out when he was giving his evidence in chief.

I've always had grave doubts about her but now I'm truly stunned. If Desai finds him guilty, it won't be because of her.
Click to expand...

JJ I have a feeling that it was brought up. I will try to find it. However, I do agree G doesn't come over as the sharpest of attorneys.
 
We've just had a power outage here. Strange things were happening on the internet for about 5 minutes beforehand. I'll try and catch up before Prime disappears.
 
Adv Botha says he never suggested Henri Van Breda was 1.5m away when threw the axe. He doesn't know where he was on stairs at the time.

Do you know where fleeing attacker was at the stage Henri Van Breda threw the axe? Points out it was a moving target. Capt Joubert says no.

Adv Botha refers to pic of knife with blood clot found under bed, then pic of knife moved from floor onto bed with clot missing.

Who moved knife and for what purpose? The time the knife was moved was not when it was processed, Adv Botha says. Joubert doesnt know.

Defence now shows a presentation on the knife.

Defence expert Cobus Steyl had done experiments to show transfer pattern of blood on blade could have been caused by fabric folds.

Steyl had also done experiments using his forearm to create some of the patterns. Rudi Van Breda's arms were bloody at time body was found.

Rudi Van Breda's body may have caused the transfer patterns on the duvet, Adv Botha tells Captain Joubert.

He concedes it's possible.

Adv Botha refers to Capt Joubert's finding that Rudi Van Breda was dragged or moved from bed onto carpet and then moved to his final position.


Suggestion is that Henri Van Breda manipulated the crime scene.
He from day 1 said he saw his brother being attacked on bed, Adv Botha says.

Asks how moving Rudi's body would corroborate Henri Van Breda's version. Joubert doesn't know. Botha says for him to move it is illogical.
Bloody fingerprints on bed base belong to Rudi Van Breda. If moved, either incapacitated or dead. If not, he could have made them himself?

Joubert: Yes

If not dead, Rudi Van Breda could have caused marks caused by his bloody head himself? Yes, Joubert says.

Adv Botha asks why Henri would have manipulated only Rudi Van Breda's position.

Joubert: There was a lot of anger towards Rudi.

Capt Joubert says it was possible that attacker showed his anger by dragging and shoving Rudi #VanBreda's body around.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-39-20170914
 
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