South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #3

[Fluffykins]

This is a rather weighty topic so I’ll try and keep it brief. An accused in most countries has a constitutional right to silence and a court cannot convict solely on the basis of an inference drawn from a failure to give evidence. Judges are prepared to acknowledge that silence in the face of incriminating evidence may rationally be used to infer guilt. However, failure to do so will allow the court to draw such inferences as appear proper from a failure to give evidence or refusal to answer questions without good cause.

The threat that the adverse inference poses to due process should not be overstated. The question for the judge/jury is whether silence can only be attributed to the accused having no satisfactory answer to the charge against him.

Adverse inferences may be drawn where before or on being charged, the accused fails to mention any fact which he later relies on and which in the circumstances at the time he could reasonably be expected to mention or fails to give evidence at trial or answer any question. Whether he enters the witness box remains his choice, however, the choice has consequences.

Many think that an accused’s electing not to testify is probative of his guilt. This flows from an assumption about human nature – that an innocent accused would act from a desire for self- preservation and want an opportunity to declare and prove his innocence, while a guilty accused would be concerned about revealing his guilt.

Botha said, “My client is chomping at the bit to tell his version”, and pigs may fly. I wonder if his client is feeling the same way now that he's heard the evidence of Otto and Joubert, not to mention other very incriminating evidence.

Thank you JJ for that info, much appreciated, and apologies for the delayed reply.

I am really quite ignorant about how the justice system operates. If I'd been asked whether a defendant has the right to remain silent, I would have said I think that's probably true in all modern western countries, but I have no idea how that applies to anything else, like a police interview, or a committal hearing - it's all quite over my head.

I've only followed a couple of trials on WS - Gerard Baden Clay and Gable Tostee. I wasn't going to follow the HvB trial, but what drew me in was that I really want to see justice done here. What this guy did was so monstrous, there has to be a punishment to fit the crime.

I noted you posted a photo of Rudi saying it breaks your heart that he was always so happy and smiling. It breaks my heart also, in particular that he was clearly such a lovely young guy, an achiever, prepared to put in the hard yards to get ahead in life. He'd learned that lesson from his dad. It's my belief that HvB's murdering rampage was largely prompted by an enormous, raging jealousy of Rudi; I think HvB would have had a contemptuous attitude towards Rudi as a studious geek, while he, HvB, saw himself as the cool, handsome charming one.

On a different note, I hope you're feeling a bit better today Fluffykins. That sounded like an awful procedure. :hug:

Thank you JJ, yeah, not a lot of fun! It actually knocked me around more the day after and I fell hopelessly behind in this thread. There's been so much evidence since then and I'm still trying to catch up!!

 

[JudgeJudi]

We are now seeing the experiment- the knife clearly fits on the stain pattern

Styl then coated his arm in blood, purchased a pillow same material as the duvet

and made folds in the material and moved his arms over folds of the pillow and created similar patters as blade pattern

B so again I ask you,can u exclude the possibility that what you see on the duvet may simply be the result of blood covered object

B: moved across the material, a fold in the material and it created the transfer patter J: its possible

B now turns to the first report BBB1

B: part of the report where you said Rudi was dragged or moved from his bed and moved around until he ended in his final position

J: that is correct

B You ended your report saying that possibility of staging cannot be excluded. Staging means alter crime scene turn attention away

B from himself or to reflect on someone else

https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en

 

[JudgeJudi]

B: the suggestion is that my client manipulated the scene

B: You are aware my client told the police that he saw his brother being attacked on his bed again in his plea

B: how would moving his brother corroborate that version?

B: Its difficult to think how would such a move corroborate his version
B: The marks B32 - swipe patters on the side of Rudi's bed appearance of bloody fingers, blood belonged to Rudi

B: if R was moved off his bed that suggests he was incapacitated at the time? Why or how would u move a person off the bed

and have his hand touch the bed on the side of the bed

B: if Rudi was not dead would it be possible for Rudi to make those marks himself? J If he was not dead yes

B: we know his head covered in blood made contact with bedroom wall near the bathroom

B so at some stage his head must have pushed against that wall and lifted around 28-40cm against that wall

B: we know that was the opposite way in which he was found

J: thats correct B: so if he was alive he could have moved and placed his head on the wall and turned around

B: what benefit would my client derive from only moving one person

https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en

 

[JudgeJudi]

J: in my opinion there was a lot of anger toward Rudi van Breda perhaps anger by dragging and carrying him around to direct anger

J: I don't know the reason why Rudi was moved

J: I don't think Rudi was moved to form part of the staging process

J I only mentioned the throwing of the axe as being part of the staging process

B: So you are not suggesting that the duvet or position of Rudi was part of staging? J no not at all

B: remember there was an electric cord below Rudi if he was dragged surely that would have left a mark through the drag marks?

B: u commented on Rudi's blood flow patterns, we know he bled on the bed for a period of time

B: we know that the big pool of blood he must have bled there for a considerable period of time

J: I did mention that he was on his back at some stage and gravity would have created more bleeding

B: so if he was actively bleeding there he must have been alive as dead pool don't bleed?

J yes but if he was still alive and he was moving then why didnt I observe flow patterns from his moving at that time

B: so if he lay there still and blood dried, and then he moved you would expect fresh blood flow? J only if he was alive

B: Our Pathologist says that none of the injuries Rudi sustained would have either incapacitated or killed him, its quite possible

that he may have lived for up to 2hr40 min when my client heard him gurgling

J: I am not disputing pathology I just want to ask

J: did pathologist attend blood pattern analysis courses? B lets assume not

https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en

 

[Interested Bystander]

What caused the adjournment?

 

[JudgeJudi]

J: Pathologist did not request an opinion from me toward the flow patterns

J: Flow patterns of Rudi have significant forensic value, flow patterns from bleeding wounds show the movement of victim

J: I would want your pathologist to comment on why he didn't ask for the flow pattern analysis. B makes a note of that

J comments on pathologist, significant amount of bed and floor, would the amount of blood observed on the bed have caused the death

B: he does say that later on, J but on what basis, B its not for me to answer your questions

Galloway objects Desai says lets proceed with commentary on report not questions

B: the comment Dr Anthony had was that the criticism by Dr P that cause of death should have been more accurately described

B: Wrt para 6.2 she said there was nothing that she did not agree with, she agreed with 6.3

Anthony wouldn't comment on blood spatter in so far as that is concerned but she could not dispute that he may have lived 2hr40min

J: I am not saying these doctors are mistaken, I just want to say I have done quite a few cases, can we exclude the fact that Rudi

J: would have died in the bed? B we cant say the amount of blood lead to his death, thats exactly my point

B: can u exclude possibility that Rudi would have still been alive and that he was capable of doing as described

capable of physical activity like pulling down the duvet to try and stand up

Galloway objects she did not say that she said that he would have limited mobility

Botha now reading the paragraphs that Anthony made no comment on and accepted

https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en

 

[Interested Bystander]

I have just had a look at Anthony Molyneaux's tweets and it seems there is more than a little irritation developing between Joubert and Botha which doesn't come over in Traceyams tweets. Here is a link to the last few exchanges.

https://twitter.com/ajgmolyneaux?lang=en

 

[JudgeJudi]

these include to mobility and grabbing the duvet

Galloway, when I re-examined Anthony said she was not comfortable to give comment on blood stain analysis

Galloway: I disagree In re-examination she said just the first sentence in each paragraph is what I agree with

Desai: we will need to check the record

J: looking at the crime scene and Rudis injuries its my opinion that the flow patterns do not concur with the comments of Dr P

J: so purely from a blood stain expert opinion

J I am not excluding the possibility that Rudi could have been alive for 2hr40 min

We are going to adjourn for the day and will be back on Monday 18 September 2017 to continue cross-examination of Captain Joubert

https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en

 

[Interested Bystander]

Thank Prime and JJ. As ever, brilliant coverage.

 

[L2L]

Thank Prime and JJ. As ever, brilliant coverage.

And many thanks from me too!

 

[JudgeJudi]

Thanks everyone. I was nearly going mental. I had a group of News24 tweets and each time I went back to grab another, a stack had disappeared. Thought I was losing my mind. Then we had a blackout and couldn't find the torch! Trying to catch up with Tracey was impossible.

I have no idea what's happened with the trial but I'm feeling very anxious. Lots of catching up to do.

 

[tmar]

Hmmm, an interesting turn of events.

What if Marli was standing directly behind Teresa while HvB was striking her and her mother with the axe, he is quite tall much taller than his brother and father.

It's hard for me to explain in writing.... Teresa was basically an interference in the blows that Marli was taking to the head before Teresa fell to the ground, her mother was a shield. So the cuts were made quick and deep but not much blood letting like the others. Marli fell down straight after her mother, she had touched the axe during the attack. Also, HvB would not have Marli's blood spatter on him as Teresa was in front, HvB does have Teresa's blood splatter on his shorts.

Then what happened, that's the big question. HvB had over 3 hours to mess with the crime scene!

What knife was used to cut Marli's throat? I'm assuming it's a different one, maybe it's in the dishwasher or back in the block, not tested.
Why move Rudi off the bed? Why throw the duvet over the pool of blood at foot of bed? An intruder wouldn't care about these trivialities, only the person who lives at the home would care. I believe there was a different story to be told and it was changed at the last minute.

We now know the knife was on the bed during the axe attack of Rudi and Martin, (the blood splatter left an outline of the knife on the duvet) so HvB was prepared with 2 weapons?

Did HvB wear some kind of footwear?

There was blood spatter on the dog's pillow in her bed, where was the dog? Why was she taken away and locked up? Why didn't she bark when the intruders entered the home and one came up the stairs? HvB never mentions the dog.

Yes Prime, Dog.
As dog basket in house, perhaps dog slept indoors.
Does dog sleep elsewhere?
Wouldn't dog bark at intruders, no matter where he/she slept?
Never mentioned.
HVB can state whatever, as there is no one to disagree with him. Perhaps cleaner, could be questioned, but she isn't present at night.
Does this dog have other owners? Could it be shown whether this dog barks at intruders?

 

[LouP1209]

And many thanks from me too!

And me!

 

[JudgeJudi]

RSBM

https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

Kick off. Botha opens with quelling Joubert's measuring tape act by saying my client does not know where he was when he threw axe.


https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Sure, sure. He doesn't know where he was when the attack took place. He could have been in the bathroom looking through the door which was slightly open and he was too afraid to leave.

He can't recall whether he remained in the same position throughout the attack on Rudi, but he does remember his dad coming into the room. Huh, what, his dad came into the bathroom? Or does it mean Henri was in the bedroom the whole time. Of course he was in the bedroom, and he was there the whole time because he's the murderer, dontcha know.

 

[tmar]

I certainly, do not think HVB is innocent, but why didn't he get rid of his shorts and socks?
Surely he realized they are stained.
Did he have something covering his clothes, and the shorts, socks are a small portion left?

By leaving soiled shorts and socks, is he going to state "I never showered, I never changed clothes, I am innocent. Nothing to hide"!!

 

[JudgeJudi]

Here we go.

7. Blood stain patterns from the axe do not support Van Breda’s version of the axe being thrown‚ says Joubert. Instead‚ the pattern is consistent with one that has been made by an object “under control of the handler”.

https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/so...ert-gives-damning-evidence-against-van-breda/

Thank you for that IB. I've obviously missed that article and don't recall it being reported from the courtroom. I can't believe no-one raised it at the time.

 

[Interested Bystander]

JJ, see post 965. Traceyams twitter feed reads:-


"J: BSP, cast off doesnt support Henri's version, throwing the axe. pattern was created by an object in control of the hand "

Of course "an object" doesn't actually state the axe but I think that is what was meant. I am unsure whether there were other references.

OK here is another one but what was stated wasn't exactly explicit so I can see why you felt the PT had not brought this up.

Edit
I think Candice Brown, the ballistics expert also said something about the axe throwing…….

State prosecutor Susan Galloway asked‚ “Would you describe it as a very hard blow?”
Brown said yes‚ and therefore one unlikely to be caused by an axe being thrown rather than held during the blow.

https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/so...-doubt-on-henri-van-bredas-version-of-events/

 

[JudgeJudi]

Yes Prime, Dog.
As dog basket in house, perhaps dog slept indoors.
Does dog sleep elsewhere?
Wouldn't dog bark at intruders, no matter where he/she slept?
Never mentioned.
HVB can state whatever, as there is no one to disagree with him. Perhaps cleaner, could be questioned, but she isn't present at night.
Does this dog have other owners? Could it be shown whether this dog barks at intruders?

Here you go. This is from Precious Munyongani, the domestic worker

"The dog slept where Henri slept. It would at times bark for a short time. It didn't make a lot of noise. The dog would walk around freely". There are no other owners. A number of us believe the dog was removed from the bedroom prior to the attack and put somewhere downstairs.

Having owned dogs my entire life, I don't for one moment believe that a family dog would sit there and watch while a family member was attacked. What about paw prints through all the blood. When the first responders arrived at the scene, Henri was sitting outside with Sasha.

 

[tmar]

If it didn't come out in cross-examination, it wouldn't have come out at all. Galloway can't raise new evidence once he's left the stand and their case is closed unless there are exceptional circumstances, and this wouldn't fall into that category.

Thanks again JJ, your knowledge is superb.
Great that Botha stupidly, got Capt Joubert to state 'axe wasn't thrown'!!
Yep, Galloway not thorough at all.

 

[tmar]

Here you go. This is from Precious Munyongani, the domestic worker

The dog slept where Henri slept. It would at times bark for a short time. It didn't make a lot of noise. The dog would walk around freely. There are no other owners. A number of us believe the dog was removed from the bedroom prior to the attack and put somewhere downstairs.

Having owned dogs my entire life, I don't for one moment believe that a family dog would sit there and watch while a family member was attacked. What about paw prints through all the blood. When the first responders arrived at the scene, Henri was sitting outside with Sasha.

Thank you JJ. Answers dog saga. Missed this. Paw prints being absent: SUPERB.
Here, another dog lover, and dogs all my life. At present my Jack Russell, on my lap, helping with laptop.

IF HVB waits outside with Sasha,? loves dog, ??? why was she not inside. YEP. PREMEDITATED.