South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #4

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O/T O/T You’ll remember that Gerrie Nel resigned and subsequently joined Afriforum. He’ll be prosecuting certain people that the DPP have chosen, for one reason or another, not to prosecute. He’s starting out on none other than President Zuma’s son.

[url]http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFKBN1CM1NN-OZATP?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FAFRICATopNews+%28News+%2F+AFRICA+%2F+Top+News%29&&rpc=401[/URL]
 
Interested Bystander said:
I have some worries about a neurologist testifying. I wonder if HvB was examined by him? If he was HvB could have boned up on all sorts of symptoms that would/could cause fainting. I do doubt whether he will agree a faint would last hours. Usually it is minutes - once the patient falls to the ground the blood flow to the brain is restored and the patient recovers, assuming of course that they are having a simple faint and it is not due to an underlying health problem.
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Dr Tiemensma said:

I don't think he lost a lot of blood, tiny amount not enough to go into shock. I don't think he would have fainted due to blood loss. Don't expect him to be out for hours.

Bruising and injury may have caused a mild concussion.

Emotional shock resulting in fainting is stress, lightheaded, fast heartbeat, resulting in you passing out and losing consciousness. Average duration is a couple of seconds to a minute at most.

Says concussion is a mild brain injury, loss of consciousness for a couple of seconds at most. But more than 90% of concussions doesn't result in loss of consciousness.

If for hours or more than a few minutes, its in keeping with a more serious injury, may show through severe headache, nausea and vomiting.
 
I don't think he lost any blood. His scratches were minor. He is a bright boy and he could lay on thick some symptoms that it might be difficult to deny once the patient has recovered.

I don't trust B and C. I am guessing that they will have hired someone known to cause trouble in trials. I think it possible that we will have another Olckers who could throw up some doubt. It seems he did have a bump on his head but as you say one needs a pretty huge bang on the head to pass out.

At the moment it seems fairly clear what Desai thinks (at least I hope it is). What we don't want is a Neurologist who comes up with very obscure reasons why a long faint/unconsciousness is a possibility. However, my money is on Desai getting it right.
 
Interested Bystander said:
I don't think he lost any blood. His scratches were minor. He is a bright boy and he could lay on thick some symptoms that it might be difficult to deny once the patient has recovered.

I don't trust B and C. I am guessing that they will have hired someone known to cause trouble in trials. I think it possible that we will have another Olckers who could throw up some doubt. It seems he did have a bump on his head but as you say one needs a pretty huge bang on the head to pass out.

At the moment it seems fairly clear what Desai thinks (at least I hope it is). What we don't want is a Neurologist who comes up with very obscure reasons why a long faint/unconsciousness is a possibility. However, my money is on Desai getting it right.
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He did lose a tiny bit, but yes, all wounds were minor. Remember the pic of him in the ambulance. He had a bandage over a wound above his shorts where he was allegedly stabbed with the knife.

Tiemensma said:

Injuries in reachable areas. Thorax and abdomen look different, look caused by stabbing action; also superficial.

Photos of blood on his wound is shown. She says it can't be concluded that that was the original state of the wound. Paramedics had attended to it.

The defence are trying to suggest he was unconscious for 2 hrs 40 mins. It will be interesting to hear what the neurosurgeon says to account for such an extended period.

How very convenient for HvB that this would eliminate all the time he needed to clean up and hope that Marli would die.
 
An advocate for the surviving daughter of the van Breda family has confirmed a trust has been set up to take care of the teenager and her 20-year-old brother, Henri.

"The trust has trustees, they are assisted by an attorney in Pretoria so they look after all the financial notice."

Coetzee says the trustees have been paying for Marli's medical and legal bills.

http://ewn.co.za/2015/03/15/Trust-fund-secures-Marli-and-Henri-van-Bredas-future

This sounds like the trust that would be paying for HvB's defence.
 
JudgeJudi said:
He did lose a tiny bit, but yes, all wounds were minor. Remember the pic of him in the ambulance. He had a bandage over a wound above his shorts where he was allegedly stabbed with the knife.

Tiemensma said:

Injuries in reachable areas. Thorax and abdomen look different, look caused by stabbing action; also superficial.

Photos of blood on his wound is shown. She says it can't be concluded that that was the original state of the wound. Paramedics had attended to it.

The defence are trying to suggest he was unconscious for 2 hrs 40 mins. It will be interesting to hear what the neurosurgeon says to account for such an extended period.

How very convenient for HvB that this would eliminate all the time he needed to clean up and hope that Marli would die.
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Yes, there was a tiny bit. I really meant no blood loss that could cause syncope. Some people do, however, faint at the sight of blood though I imagine he was made of sterner stuff than that. I think we all agree with you and don't believe he passed out for 2hrs 40mins and I hope we are not going to get a neurologist who is going to try to prove differently. Unfortunately in ZA it does look sometimes as though these learned witnesses can be bought. I will have to switch off if that proves to be the case. Another Olckers and I will commit hara-kiri :).

Enjoy a recuperative week-end everyone.
 
JudgeJudi said:
An advocate for the surviving daughter of the van Breda family has confirmed a trust has been set up to take care of the teenager and her 20-year-old brother, Henri.

"The trust has trustees, they are assisted by an attorney in Pretoria so they look after all the financial notice."

Coetzee says the trustees have been paying for Marli's medical and legal bills.

http://ewn.co.za/2015/03/15/Trust-fund-secures-Marli-and-Henri-van-Bredas-future

This sounds like the trust that would be paying for HvB's defence.
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That is around UK £11,000,000. No way HvB can be running out of money yet if that figure is correct. Seems Botha is bringing undue pressure for effect.
 
Hi all, sorry I haven't been here with you to share in all the fun again today, not.

Thanks to you wonderful ladies Prime and JJ for keeping us updated.

I think the winning attack by Galloway has to be the one that seems to have been left quite understated really. If the defence truly wanted to prove that the lab's results were wrong and exclude or include different DNA donors, all they had to do was re-test the samples, or a random sample of them. That would resolve it once and for all - no need for two weeks of money down the drain with Olckers rambling on in the witness box. They didn't dare. Her method is to try to destroy the case hypothetically - not with direct evidence of a single error in the results. Otto had already conceded that Teresa may not have been in the shower mixture anyway.

I don't think I've been so bored by any witness since Prof Derman, the Pistorius court lecturer. I think Galloway has sealed her own future now as the NPA's very own DNA expert examiner. She's done so well getting to grips with a very complex field.

So, on to Henri's coma. How convenient that he woke himself up just before the family would have been noticeably absent from their daily activities, or about to be discovered by the cleaner.
 
Tortoise said:
Hi all, sorry I haven't been here with you to share in all the fun again today, not.

Thanks to you wonderful ladies Prime and JJ for keeping us updated.

I think the winning attack by Galloway has to be the one that seems to have been left quite understated really. If the defence truly wanted to prove that the lab's results were wrong and exclude or include different DNA donors, all they had to do was re-test the samples, or a random sample of them. That would resolve it once and for all - no need for two weeks of money down the drain with Olckers rambling on in the witness box. They didn't dare. Her method is to try to destroy the case hypothetically - not with direct evidence of a single error in the results. Otto had already conceded that Teresa may not have been in the shower mixture anyway.

I don't think I've been so bored by any witness since Prof Derman, the Pistorius court lecturer. I think Galloway has sealed her own future now as the NPA's very own DNA expert examiner. She's done so well getting to grips with a very complex field.

So, on to Henri's coma. How convenient that he woke himself up just before the family would have been noticeably absent from their daily activities, or about to be discovered by the cleaner.
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Derman! Will you ever forget how he droned on! He and Olckers would make good dancing partners!
 
L2L said:
Derman! Will you ever forget how he droned on! He and Olckers would make good dancing partners!
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Dunno L2L, she's got dodgy ankles apparently.

I think we should just lock 'em in a room together and throw away the key.
 
Thankyou, Judi, and Prime.. what a hard , hard road this trial is, so far.. . . trying to baffle everyone with the science is such an old ploy, but often effective, I hope not in this case..

good work, ladies.
 
Interested Bystander said:
That is around UK £11,000,000. No way HvB can be running out of money yet if that figure is correct. Seems Botha is bringing undue pressure for effect.
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The R200 million is the value of the estate. This shouldn't be confused with the trust fund which was set up to provide living, medical and legal expenses. As both Marli (who was underage at the time) and HvB were wholly dependent upon Martin for their maintenance, education or advancement in life, the executor of the estate would have set up the trust fund for this purpose and it will be administered by a trustee. We have no idea how large this trust fund is or whether the trustee can add additional funds for HvB's defence.

It is a very large estate and obviously they will be the 2 major beneficiaries (if HvB is found not guilty), but it's quite possible there are other beneficiaries too. Before the estate can be distributed, all claims by creditors, debts, taxes and estate duty etc must be paid. Then and only then can the estate be distributed. As HvB's trial is still ongoing (and there may well be appeals), things will remain as they are for the time being.

So long story short, he doesn't have access to anything further unless the trustee allows it or a court rules on it.
 
JudgeJudi said:
The R200 million is the value of the estate. This shouldn't be confused with the trust fund which was set up to provide living, medical and legal expenses. As both Marli (who was underage at the time) and HvB were wholly dependent upon Martin for their maintenance, education or advancement in life, the executor of the estate would have set up the trust fund for this purpose and it will be administered by a trustee. We have no idea how large this trust fund is or whether the trustee can add additional funds for HvB's defence.

It is a very large estate and obviously they will be the 2 major beneficiaries (if HvB is found not guilty), but it's quite possible there are other beneficiaries too. Before the estate can be distributed, all claims by creditors, debts, taxes and estate duty etc must be paid. Then and only then can the estate be distributed. As HvB's trial is still ongoing (and there may well be appeals), things will remain as they are for the time being.

So long story short, he doesn't have access to anything further unless the trustee allows it or a court rules on it.
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Hi JJ. I am sure you are right in what you say. I suppose I was just sounding off at the thought of Botha claiming lack of money. If I remember correctly the family said they were very supportive of HvB and I would be surprised if they foreclose on him at this stage. Is not the trustee dealing with this the uncle?

What we don’t know, and are realistically not entitled to know, is the size of the trust and whether the whole of the remaining monies have been put in trust for the H and M, after having paid the State their dues together with other creditors OR do you think the whole of the estate has not been wound up and, if not, there will be probably be financial penalties for not having been able to do so, ie interest on State taxes etc.
 
Numerous references were also made to a case dating back to 2004, The State vs. Orrie, where Olckers had previously consulted in her capacity as a forensic expert – and not as a witness – for the Defence team who represented the now-convicted Orrie brothers. Advocate Susan Galloway told the court how the judge in that case had reprimanded the forensic expert, saying that ten court days had been wasted, as she had reached an “extraordinarily far-reaching conclusion” based on her findings, which he added was not the actual “accuracy of the DNA tests”.

On *Monday, 13th October, we’ll be introduced to the next witness to testify for the Defence, a neurologist based in Kwa-Zulu Natal named Dr Michael Denis Du-Trevou.
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http://www.capetownetc.com/news/van-breda-cross-examination-expert-ends/

(*That should read Monday 23rd October)
 
L2L said:
Derman! Will you ever forget how he droned on! He and Olckers would make good dancing partners!
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L2L guess who would be their Instructor?
Mild mannered Botha, teaching them their 'round about moves'!!
 
Tortoise said:
http://www.capetownetc.com/news/van-breda-cross-examination-expert-ends/

(*That should read Monday 23rd October)[/FONT][/COLOR]
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Thanks Tortoise, for that valuable info.
They don't 'change their spots.
Galloway would have realized what was ahead, knowing Olcker would appear.
Galloway and Desai have their stiff drinks every night, separately, after each session with Olcker!!!!!
Susan Galloway certainly requested Olcker 'get to the point', several times, knowing of Olcker's past delay tactics.

Both Botha and Olcker, have 'delay tactics' on their agenda.
Desai clearly aware, thank goodness!
 
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