South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #4
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JudgeJudi
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Galloway: Would have Sgt Kleyhans added trauma when he approached the scene 'tactically" (armed with a gun) and made H wet himself? Botha rises to object and says this wasn't in Kleyhans' testimony
[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]
After minutes of verbal diarrhea, Galloway manages to get in a word about "stress incontinence", or "fright" leading to someone wetting themselves. Butler seems to be need to be frogmarched to make each of these concessions, doesn't volunteer them.
[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]
Wetting yourself cannot be ascribed only to a tonic-clonic seizure? There are other conditions that can cause it? Absolutely, Butler says. But combination of losing consciousness and wetting yourself says something else.
First respondent approached in a tactical manner, gun drawn. Given what #VanBreda had gone through, he is approached by an armed policeman. That would add to the trauma?
Butler says bladder would become less contracted. So he wouldn't urinate.
[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-day-63-of-henri-vanbreda-murder-trial-20171129[/URL]
I’m sick of hearing about him wetting himself. Not only is this doctor all wet but he’s giving me the sh***.
[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]
After minutes of verbal diarrhea, Galloway manages to get in a word about "stress incontinence", or "fright" leading to someone wetting themselves. Butler seems to be need to be frogmarched to make each of these concessions, doesn't volunteer them.
[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]
Wetting yourself cannot be ascribed only to a tonic-clonic seizure? There are other conditions that can cause it? Absolutely, Butler says. But combination of losing consciousness and wetting yourself says something else.
First respondent approached in a tactical manner, gun drawn. Given what #VanBreda had gone through, he is approached by an armed policeman. That would add to the trauma?
Butler says bladder would become less contracted. So he wouldn't urinate.
[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-day-63-of-henri-vanbreda-murder-trial-20171129[/URL]
I’m sick of hearing about him wetting himself. Not only is this doctor all wet but he’s giving me the sh***.
JudgeJudi
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Galloway: Is it a possibility that the accused could have committed the murders and then had a seizure? Butler: This is entirely possible
[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]
As Galloway talks about Kleynhans drawing his gun at De Zalze, and that being an opportunity for Henri to wet himself, Henri can be seen in court lip snarling behind Botha.
What about ordinary impact of excess alcohol on wetting oneself, neglect?
Galloway: Is it possible the accused committed the murders, then did whatever, and then had the seizure. Butler: Emphatically yes.
[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]
Given facts and circumstances, is there a possibility accused committed murders, done things and then had the seizure? Butler: the answer is emphatically yes.
[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-day-63-of-henri-vanbreda-murder-trial-20171129[/URL]
[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]
As Galloway talks about Kleynhans drawing his gun at De Zalze, and that being an opportunity for Henri to wet himself, Henri can be seen in court lip snarling behind Botha.
What about ordinary impact of excess alcohol on wetting oneself, neglect?
Galloway: Is it possible the accused committed the murders, then did whatever, and then had the seizure. Butler: Emphatically yes.
[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]
Given facts and circumstances, is there a possibility accused committed murders, done things and then had the seizure? Butler: the answer is emphatically yes.
[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-day-63-of-henri-vanbreda-murder-trial-20171129[/URL]
JudgeJudi
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Galloway concludes her cross-examination. Botha begins his re-examination
Botha: At your first meeting with the accused, did he say anything about his loss of memory being linked to the murders? Butler: Not at all
[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]
Galloway has finished were her cross. Now Botha pops up to re-examine.
[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]
Possibility cannot be excluded that he's fabricating everything except that his pants were wet? Butler maintains highly unlikely that these events can be explained as malingering.
Adv Galloway concludes cross-examination. Adv Botha on his feet.
Did #VanBreda at first meeting say anything suggesting that his recent seizure was somehow linked to the murder? Butler: not at all.
Dr Butler says he is a meticulous note taker. Writes down everything a patient says.
[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-day-63-of-henri-vanbreda-murder-trial-20171129[/URL]
Botha: At your first meeting with the accused, did he say anything about his loss of memory being linked to the murders? Butler: Not at all
[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]
Galloway has finished were her cross. Now Botha pops up to re-examine.
[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]
Possibility cannot be excluded that he's fabricating everything except that his pants were wet? Butler maintains highly unlikely that these events can be explained as malingering.
Adv Galloway concludes cross-examination. Adv Botha on his feet.
Did #VanBreda at first meeting say anything suggesting that his recent seizure was somehow linked to the murder? Butler: not at all.
Dr Butler says he is a meticulous note taker. Writes down everything a patient says.
[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-day-63-of-henri-vanbreda-murder-trial-20171129[/URL]
JudgeJudi
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Butler didn't ask if he had before murders woken up with a wet bed, pain in the tongue or sore muscles.
He told #VanBreda the Sunday that he had epilepsy. Prior to that, he didn't appear to have the "foggiest idea" of what was wrong with him.
During consultation did he suggest what happened on night of murder may be attributed to seizure?
Butler: No, not at all.
Judge Desai says seizures have occurred while discussing the case.
Butler says he thought psychogenic was likely cause, but not eventual diagnoses. Stress provoked it, Butler believes.
Desai says Butler is making a diagnosis almost 3 years after incident. He has to do that a lot of the time, Butler says.
2 and a half years later, isn't your task complicatied?
Butler says he has an independent way of verifying it.
Adv Botha: how certain of you of diagnosis?
Butler: as certain as I have ever been of anyone with an epilepsy condition.
[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-day-63-of-henri-vanbreda-murder-trial-20171129[/URL]
He told #VanBreda the Sunday that he had epilepsy. Prior to that, he didn't appear to have the "foggiest idea" of what was wrong with him.
During consultation did he suggest what happened on night of murder may be attributed to seizure?
Butler: No, not at all.
Judge Desai says seizures have occurred while discussing the case.
Butler says he thought psychogenic was likely cause, but not eventual diagnoses. Stress provoked it, Butler believes.
Desai says Butler is making a diagnosis almost 3 years after incident. He has to do that a lot of the time, Butler says.
2 and a half years later, isn't your task complicatied?
Butler says he has an independent way of verifying it.
Adv Botha: how certain of you of diagnosis?
Butler: as certain as I have ever been of anyone with an epilepsy condition.
[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-day-63-of-henri-vanbreda-murder-trial-20171129[/URL]
JudgeJudi
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Botha: When you saw the accused on the Sunday, did he divulge as much info to you as what was stated in his plea statement? Butler: No
Botha: When did you tell the accused he had a condition? Butler: On the Sunday
Butler: Henri didn't know he had epilepsy when I first saw him.
Botha has completed re-examination of the final defence witness. Desai clarifying a few details before Butler leaves the stand
Desai: You're making a diagnosis two and a half years after the incident occurred? And in the middle of the trial? Isn't that complicated? Butler: It's my job to do so
Desai: This makes your diagnosis ....difficult.
Desai: Others would feel less confident than you, doing what you've done.
Butler adds that he is as certain as he's ever been about H's epilepsy
Butler steps down from the stand.
[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]
Botha: When did you tell the accused he had a condition? Butler: On the Sunday
Butler: Henri didn't know he had epilepsy when I first saw him.
Botha has completed re-examination of the final defence witness. Desai clarifying a few details before Butler leaves the stand
Desai: You're making a diagnosis two and a half years after the incident occurred? And in the middle of the trial? Isn't that complicated? Butler: It's my job to do so
Desai: This makes your diagnosis ....difficult.
Desai: Others would feel less confident than you, doing what you've done.
Butler adds that he is as certain as he's ever been about H's epilepsy
Butler steps down from the stand.
[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]
JudgeJudi
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Butler concedes to Botha [not that Botha asked for this concession] that he never specifically asked Henri if he'd previously wet his bed etc. Says he wished he'd had time to ask for specifics beyond his general questions.
Butler now admits to having "significant doubts" about his epilepsy diagnosis, given the context of the court case. Botha probably seething at this disclosure.
Desai raises interesting point, that on Henri's own version he had his two post January 27th seizures "while discussing this case."
Desai: You're dealing with the vagaries of the human mind two and half years after the fact. Butler: Unquestionably.
Botha has finished with the defense case. Strange, I thought there would be a psychologist too. Desai will come back in 5 minutes to schedule closing arguments for both counsels. Cutting it very fine for a verdict before all courts adjourn for end of year break.
[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]
Butler now admits to having "significant doubts" about his epilepsy diagnosis, given the context of the court case. Botha probably seething at this disclosure.
Desai raises interesting point, that on Henri's own version he had his two post January 27th seizures "while discussing this case."
Desai: You're dealing with the vagaries of the human mind two and half years after the fact. Butler: Unquestionably.
Botha has finished with the defense case. Strange, I thought there would be a psychologist too. Desai will come back in 5 minutes to schedule closing arguments for both counsels. Cutting it very fine for a verdict before all courts adjourn for end of year break.
[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]
JudgeJudi
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'It is possible' #VanBreda committed murders, then had seizure - neurologist
https://twitter.com/TeamNews24
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L2L
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Probably wet his/her pants waiting!
JudgeJudi
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JudgeJudi
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And we're back for some final arguments admin
https://twitter.com/HiRezLife
Not sure what's going on. Possibly argument next but verdict on 12 Feb 2018.
https://twitter.com/HiRezLife
Not sure what's going on. Possibly argument next but verdict on 12 Feb 2018.
L2L
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Thanks for all your splendid work here, JJ. And that's it!
JudgeJudi
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Adv Botha points out court goes on recess in 2 weeks, suggests matter be postponed until next year. Fairly complicated matter, Judge Desai says. Postpones until 12 February for arguments, followed by adjournment for judgement a few weeks later.
https://twitter.com/TeamNews24
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JudgeJudi
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Some interesting bits and pieces from today.
Butler: Severity (that he wet himself and wasn't aware and also forehead injury) shows more severe postictal delirium. Common cause that severity was much greater, doubt he had a short seizure and recovered quickly.
Desai: That's assuming he had a seizure.
Galloway: You can't with scientific certainty say how long seizure lasted, but you can infer it.
Butler agrees. The fact he was incontinent and neglect shows severe dysfunction in the brain.
Desai: #VanBreda's parents were murdered. Wet pants a minor consequence, inconsequential detail.
Butler: The study of epilepsy requires considerable psychiatric skills...frequently involves psychotic patients.
Yet Butler isnt a psychiatrist, so how can he be so certain that HvB didn't have a psychotic episode. Ive thought for a very long time that HvB may be schizophrenic due to his use of dagga (marijuana) and had a psychotic episode. Rumours swirled about his alleged drug use. Thats one of my theories. I posted an article a long time ago that when HvB and Danielle left the house they were renting, the owner said it was in the most disgusting condition he had ever seen and that the entire floor was covered with garbage. That's not unusual for a lot of drug users.
Botha was going to call a psychologist. He had asked her two questions. There must have been something in her report that wasnt going to advance the defences case and she was called.
Desai says Butler is making a diagnosis almost 3 years after incident.
Butler says he has to do that a lot of the time.
Desai: 2 and a half years later, isn't your task complicated?
Butler says he has an independent way of verifying it.
Botha: How certain of you of diagnosis?
Butler: As certain as I have ever been of anyone with an epilepsy condition.
Desai: You're making a diagnosis two and a half years after the incident occurred? And in the middle of the trial? Isn't that complicated?
Butler: It's my job to do so
Desai: This makes your diagnosis ....difficult.
Desai: Others would feel less confident than you, doing what you've done.
Butler adds that he is as certain as he's ever been about H's epilepsy.
Butler now admits to having "significant doubts" about his epilepsy diagnosis, given the context of the court case. Botha probably seething at this disclosure.
Desai raises interesting point, that on Henri's own version he had his two post January 27th seizures "while discussing this case."
Desai: You're dealing with the vagaries of the human mind two and half years after the fact.
Butler: Unquestionably. 'It is possible' #VanBreda committed murders, then had seizure.
Butler: Severity (that he wet himself and wasn't aware and also forehead injury) shows more severe postictal delirium. Common cause that severity was much greater, doubt he had a short seizure and recovered quickly.
Desai: That's assuming he had a seizure.
Galloway: You can't with scientific certainty say how long seizure lasted, but you can infer it.
Butler agrees. The fact he was incontinent and neglect shows severe dysfunction in the brain.
Desai: #VanBreda's parents were murdered. Wet pants a minor consequence, inconsequential detail.
Butler: The study of epilepsy requires considerable psychiatric skills...frequently involves psychotic patients.
Yet Butler isnt a psychiatrist, so how can he be so certain that HvB didn't have a psychotic episode. Ive thought for a very long time that HvB may be schizophrenic due to his use of dagga (marijuana) and had a psychotic episode. Rumours swirled about his alleged drug use. Thats one of my theories. I posted an article a long time ago that when HvB and Danielle left the house they were renting, the owner said it was in the most disgusting condition he had ever seen and that the entire floor was covered with garbage. That's not unusual for a lot of drug users.
Botha was going to call a psychologist. He had asked her two questions. There must have been something in her report that wasnt going to advance the defences case and she was called.
Desai says Butler is making a diagnosis almost 3 years after incident.
Butler says he has to do that a lot of the time.
Desai: 2 and a half years later, isn't your task complicated?
Butler says he has an independent way of verifying it.
Botha: How certain of you of diagnosis?
Butler: As certain as I have ever been of anyone with an epilepsy condition.
Desai: You're making a diagnosis two and a half years after the incident occurred? And in the middle of the trial? Isn't that complicated?
Butler: It's my job to do so
Desai: This makes your diagnosis ....difficult.
Desai: Others would feel less confident than you, doing what you've done.
Butler adds that he is as certain as he's ever been about H's epilepsy.
Butler now admits to having "significant doubts" about his epilepsy diagnosis, given the context of the court case. Botha probably seething at this disclosure.
Desai raises interesting point, that on Henri's own version he had his two post January 27th seizures "while discussing this case."
Desai: You're dealing with the vagaries of the human mind two and half years after the fact.
Butler: Unquestionably. 'It is possible' #VanBreda committed murders, then had seizure.
I have been following the neurologist testimony. If there is EEG evidence of a seizure disorder this is going to be enough IMO to introduce reasonable doubt. The defendant may have had a seizure, acted automatically (like in a temporal lobe seizure) committed the murders and been post-ictal for the time in question. IMO he is going to be acquitted
Bohemian
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Thanks for everything JJ. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you. Praying your surgery is a success. Take care x
Tortoise
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Firstly let me say how grateful I am for all your hard work JJ. If I lived near you I'd bake you a cake. Sadly I don't, but please accept a virtual one
Mine wouldn't look like that, but that's what I'd aim for.
I have every confidence in Judge Desai. In the OP matter we had to second guess Masipa because she didn't open her mouth to question the evidence, so I assumed as I guess did most, that she was silently noting everything and would show us her brilliance in her judgement. Couldn't have been more wrong, as she read through her judgement my jaw wasn't on the floor it was hanging probably not far from where you live actually. I won't ever forget the horror of that moment. I don't feel it in this case. Just look at what Desai was saying to Butler (BBM above) and see where his mind is. Would it be there if he believed Henri's version? Would he have been thinking in terms of doubting HvB if he was content with his testimony?
We might think that a judge has to keep open all avenues of enquiry during this stage of the trial, but I truly believe he has shown persistent unease with the doctor's approach to the evidence relating to the 26th Jan 2015, and I believe therefore that he is looking for a credible way to factor in the epilepsy diagnosis and still legitimately dismiss it as far as the morning of the murder. He and his assessor have been giving off all the signals of really probing the value of the evidence. It would be easy for them, with this last witness, to sit back and say well that makes our job easy now, to justify an acquittal based on reasonable doubt, without going to the extra lengths they have done to try to fit this late revelation with an accused who has shown he is quite capable of outwitting the court, and is both dishonest and devious.
I think they have the measure of HvB!
Dr Butler was very annoying. He assumed he had all the answers now and really made some dangerous statements considering he was trying to have the court believe he was objective. I thought a doctor of his standing should be smarter than that. He was duped by this 'neglect' business and HvB saying he hadn't wet his pants before remembering that he had been told he had. HvB had just literally finished giving evidence at that stage and he knew full well that it was fact that he had wet his pants. Dr Butler couldn't be more wrong when he said that a malingerer would have drawn attention to that - he overlooked the fact that this malingerer wanted a diagnosis of amnesia! FGS!!!
There is just no way any specialist could say with the confidence he did, that HvB had a seizure that night based on the objective facts he had - wet shorts. That is why Desai said other experts would have been less confident. Butler should have left it as a mere possibility, dependent entirely upon HvB's honesty. Botha seemed to be saying that HvB could have had no inkling that he was epileptic on the Friday he was admitted to the ward, forgetting of course that his girlfriend's father had immediately contacted Dr Butler. Duh!
Anyway, I don't think we need worry - the case is in very capable hands.
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