Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #2

[RickshawFan]

So, in this photo of the Refuge, I'd have been trying to get water on that little beach on the far left, or on the rocks in the forefront where's there's runoff.

Problem is, look how the Refuge is on that smooth-ish cliff. Kinda wedged in there. In the dark, that would be dangerous, too. If you didn't know where to find water....

It sounded from LE that ED never made it to the Refuge. Certainly, her pack doesn't seem to have been there.

Everyone has different water protocols, but mine was (unless I was just passing by a water spot) to dump my pack and take my "dirty" water container to the water source. I'd take this container back to my pack to filter it. If I was passing by my water source, I'd take off my pack, attach the output filter hose directly to my Camelbak hose, put the filter hose/input in the water, and start pumping up the hose into the Camelbak. No "dirty" water bottle needed. I'd do this right beside the creek (or whatever), but my preference was always to do my filtering under cover. To keep things in perspective, we're not talking a small amount of water. I'd filter 6 liters every night, as well as 2 batches of 2 liters during the day.

This is not a minor undertaking. So much opportunity for an accident.

ED might really have had an inadequate water plan that put her in trouble. She was in sunshine at altitude. Sun would have been beaming off the rocks and snow. So many things you have to anticipate. Plus, she might not have known there was no water at the refuge.

Note: if you get dehydrated, you also get colder. This is a recipe for hypothermia.

The Refuge has a privy (see photo). I would hope SAR checked there, even just for aroma-traces.

 

[otto]

Astonishing how similar this is to the accident I cited!
Bottom line: your comfort zone has nothing to do with nature's behavior. Nature does its thing regardless. You do everything right, get experience, have good gear, and you can easily assume nature will go along with your plan. If only you'd let go of your fear.
This is my fear for ED.

Very similar. One of the victims was a unicyclist - rode up and down city hills and streets perfectly balanced. Some of the survivors wanted specific people to survive and dug them out first, sometimes disappointed that the friend was 5 feet N. and was already dead by the time they rescued "The Wrong Person", so to speak.

Back country trekking is life changing, fulfilling, risky.

 

[Grouse]

Trail near the lake

View attachment 276546

Link

That looks like an alternative angle on a shot I posted earlier (#1214 in thread 1 Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020) and backs up my concern about that path on the route down.

 

[Skiptolou]

That looks like an alternative angle on a shot I posted earlier (#1214 in thread 1 Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020) and backs up my concern about that path on the route down.

I think this screenshot from the video posted earlier shows that same path from a different angle. It doesn't look as steep as when viewed straight on. Still a worry though.

 

[Grouse]

I think this screenshot from the video posted earlier shows that same path from a different angle. It doesn't look as steep as when viewed straight on. Still a worry though.

Yes that looks like the same stretch and you're right doesn't look anywhere as near as steep from that POV.

 

[RickshawFan]

dbm

 

[RedHaus]

"Chia Seed Water Gel". I spent a little time researching Chia seeds since I learned of ED's purchase on 11/19 and the commotion it caused in the Banasque grocery store. Anyhow, with all the recent discussion about ED's possible water needs on the evening of 11/22 that may have put her in the way of water danger, I thought I'd postulate a different spin.

What if ED - with all her wellness and fitness expertise - had come to understand and apply the benefits of Chia Seed Water Gel (1/4 c. seed / 1 c. H2O for 15 min.) for hydration? Apparently desert cultures have long used this concoction and other similar foods to minimize their reliance on water to survive. So what if ED carried Chia Seed Gel Water rather than plain water for much more nutrition and hydration value? Or what if she prepared Chia Seed Water Gel frequently on her hiking trips by using small amounts of water and seed that she carried separately? And what if she was in fact amply hydrated on 11/22 using this technique, even after walking and traveling for two days (11/21 and 11/22)?

I worry that we're getting too locked into interpreting the fruit / fresh food request by ED of the skier on the trail up Pic de Sauvegarde on 11/22 as meaning she was dehydrated and needed water. What if she just wanted something fresh to taste and freshen her mouth? And a supposition long ago in Thread #1, what if she just wanted to be recognized for some reason?

 

[RickshawFan]

"Chia Seed Water Gel". I spent a little time researching Chia seeds since I learned of ED's purchase on 11/19 and the commotion it caused in the Banasque grocery store. Anyhow, with all the recent discussion about ED's possible water needs on the evening of 11/22 that may have put her in the way of water danger, I thought I'd postulate a different spin.

What if ED - with all her wellness and fitness expertise - had come to understand and apply the benefits of Chia Seed Water Gel (1/4 c. seed / 1 c. H2O for 15 min.) for hydration? Apparently desert cultures have long used this concoction and other similar foods to minimize their reliance on water to survive. So what if ED carried Chia Seed Gel Water rather than plain water for much more nutrition and hydration value? Or what if she prepared Chia Seed Water Gel frequently on her hiking trips by using small amounts of water and seed that she carried separately? And what if she was in fact amply hydrated on 11/22 using this technique, even after walking and traveling for two days (11/21 and 11/22)?

I worry that we're getting too locked into interpreting the fruit / fresh food request by ED of the skier on the trail up Pic de Sauvegarde on 11/22 as meaning she was dehydrated and needed water. What if she just wanted something fresh to taste and freshen her mouth? And a supposition long ago in Thread #1, what if she just wanted to be recognized for some reason?

Well, it's a thought, but...

I'm not sure this is quite the right tack. Chia seeds absorb a LOT of water. Same as psyllium. Ummmm.... this bulks up the contents of your intestines. Like other "fiber" in your diet sometimes purposefully ingested for comfortable and regular expulsion. (I hope that's not too rude for WS).

I would want to go with a peer-reviewed scientific journal paper on the benefits of chia seed for hydration for truth to the testimonials about whether it can actually prevent body-wide dehydration. In my brief search, I couldn't see anything like that.

IMO slow-moving innards (aka constipation) can be fallout from dehydration. I'm not sure the reverse—namely speeding them up—would equate with hydration, however. After all, fiber seems to result in expelling water, not retaining it. I'd want to ask a specialist doc with a big degree (and not a naturopath or some oblique or general specialty).

ED seems to have been into "juicing". Chia seeds are popularly added to juice. It's a thing. I was assuming that's why she bought them. She might not even have wanted them for hiking.

On the other hand, ED may have thought (perhaps erroneously) that chia seeds would keep her hydrated. Instead, they might (inadvertently) cause a digestive emergency, which would be VERY unfortunate on those Pic trails. I'd be heading right back to the campervan.

******
I will add, there was no reason for ED to take any kind of special concoction to stay hydrated (whether myth or not). There's plenty of water: all those lakes. This is not a place where it's not easy to hydrate. You could get a lot of water easily. It just takes planning. It's the planning thing where she might have made a mistake IMO, especially if she didn't know in advance there was no running water at the Refuge.

ED also carried a Camelbak (or clone). That's for water.

 

[RedHaus]

"Location of ED's Encounter with Spanish Skier" - I think it was deep in Thread #1 where a poster (sorry, I can't recall who!) wondered where exactly on the (only) trail up to Pic de Sauvegarde ED encountered the Spanish skier. Why does this matter? IMO it matters because if it was below Port de Vanesque, it leaves open the possibility that that encounter does not necessarily mean ED summited the Pic that day (we know she did on 11/21 and took many pictures).

If I recall correctly that encounter occurred about an hour hike from the summit (please correct me if I'm wrong!). So it is possible that could put their encounter below the Port - would anyone know? The Spanish skier said ED continued up after their encounter. But do we really know how far up? And certainly if they met below the Port, IMO, ED may have hiked through the Port towards (or past) the Refuge de Vanesque rather than summiting the Pic again. And that would have put her on that challenging terrain towards the Refuge at mid-afternoon with much less risk.

I realize we have the phone transaction with DC about an hour later, and we believe that occurred from the summit of Pic de Sauvegarde. But what if ED was not actually on the summit, but within range of the cell tower on the summit? If that summit tower picked up the ping from another location, could ED have just sent DC a summit picture from later in the day on 11/21? Some here wonder if ED spent a few hours on the summit 11/21 to explain differences in the pics.

And even if ED didn't go directly through the Port after meeting the skier, could she have aborted her second summit attempt somewhere higher up? If so, IMO, she could have turned around and descended (to Port or Banasque, etc.)

I am not supposing why any of what I postulate here may have happened. I am just trying to look at the data a little differently to see if there are other scenarios that could emerge if we had more specific information on this location.

 

[RickshawFan]

"Location of ED's Encounter with Spanish Skier" - I think it was deep in Thread #1 where a poster (sorry, I can't recall who!) wondered where exactly on the (only) trail up to Pic de Sauvegarde ED encountered the Spanish skier. Why does this matter? IMO it matters because if it was below Port de Vanesque, it leaves open the possibility that that encounter does not necessarily mean ED summited the Pic that day (we know she did on 11/21 and took many pictures).

If I recall correctly that encounter occurred about an hour hike from the summit (please correct me if I'm wrong!). So it is possible that could put their encounter below the Port - would anyone know? The Spanish skier said ED continued up after their encounter. But do we really know how far up? And certainly if they met below the Port, IMO, ED may have hiked through the Port towards (or past) the Refuge de Vanesque rather than summiting the Pic again. And that would have put her on that challenging terrain towards the Refuge at mid-afternoon with much less risk.

I realize we have the phone transaction with DC about an hour later, and we believe that occurred from the summit of Pic de Sauvegarde. But what if ED was not actually on the summit, but within range of the cell tower on the summit? If that summit tower picked up the ping from another location, could ED have just sent DC a summit picture from later in the day on 11/21? Some here wonder if ED spent a few hours on the summit 11/21 to explain differences in the pics.

And even if ED didn't go directly through the Port after meeting the skier, could she have aborted her second summit attempt somewhere higher up? If so, IMO, she could have turned around and descended (to Port or Banasque, etc.)

I am not supposing why any of what I postulate here may have happened. I am just trying to look at the data a little differently to see if there are other scenarios that could emerge if we had more specific information on this location.

IMO this idea is very astute. It would explain a lot.

 

[otto]

"Location of ED's Encounter with Spanish Skier" - I think it was deep in Thread #1 where a poster (sorry, I can't recall who!) wondered where exactly on the (only) trail up to Pic de Sauvegarde ED encountered the Spanish skier. Why does this matter? IMO it matters because if it was below Port de Vanesque, it leaves open the possibility that that encounter does not necessarily mean ED summited the Pic that day (we know she did on 11/21 and took many pictures).

If I recall correctly that encounter occurred about an hour hike from the summit (please correct me if I'm wrong!). So it is possible that could put their encounter below the Port - would anyone know? The Spanish skier said ED continued up after their encounter. But do we really know how far up? And certainly if they met below the Port, IMO, ED may have hiked through the Port towards (or past) the Refuge de Vanesque rather than summiting the Pic again. And that would have put her on that challenging terrain towards the Refuge at mid-afternoon with much less risk.

I realize we have the phone transaction with DC about an hour later, and we believe that occurred from the summit of Pic de Sauvegarde. But what if ED was not actually on the summit, but within range of the cell tower on the summit? If that summit tower picked up the ping from another location, could ED have just sent DC a summit picture from later in the day on 11/21? Some here wonder if ED spent a few hours on the summit 11/21 to explain differences in the pics.

And even if ED didn't go directly through the Port after meeting the skier, could she have aborted her second summit attempt somewhere higher up? If so, IMO, she could have turned around and descended (to Port or Banasque, etc.)

I am not supposing why any of what I postulate here may have happened. I am just trying to look at the data a little differently to see if there are other scenarios that could emerge if we had more specific information on this location.

That's an interesting possibility. I think Port de Venasque is 30 minutes from the summit, and 30 minutes from the Refuge. I recall that the olympian spoke with her around 3PM and the photo places her at the summit around 4PM. She would have been near the Port de Venasque at 3:30PM

It is possible that she did not go to the summit, and instead went straight to the refuge. She would have arrived there at 4PM instead.

There doesn't seem to be any evidence that she was at the refuge, but she could have gone farther than the refuge. She had 1.5 hours to sunset. Where would she go if she was at the refuge at 4PM?

 

[RedHaus]

I would want to go with a peer-reviewed scientific journal paper on the benefits of chia seed for hydration for truth to the testimonials about whether it can actually prevent body-wide dehydration.

Snipped for Focus

Well, here are some sources that may intrigue you. They're not a great selection but they may offer some fodder to consider. And I believe ED is a personal fitness trainer (right?) and has I'd say, a solid athletic background.

1. Peer Reviewed, General Benefits of Chia Seeds: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4926888/pdf/13197_2015_Article_1967.pdf

2. Physician Co-Author with Mainstream Credentials:
Gel Water For Increasing Hydration Support | Goop

3. Running Media Outlet Article - mentions MSM coverage of benefits, NFL use, and a blurb on hydration benefits
Chia Seeds for Runners: Power Your Run with This Ancient Superfood - Fleet Feet St. Louis

 

[RedHaus]

dbm - dupe

 

[otto]

The red line is a 30 minute hike from the Port de Benasque to the Refuge de Venasque. She had 1.5 hours until sunset, but she was in the shadow of the mountain.

If she went from Port de Benasque/Venasque to the Refuge de Venasque, could she have arrived at Hospice de France at 5:30 PM?

 

[RedHaus]

There doesn't seem to be any evidence that she was at the refuge, but she could have gone farther than the refuge. She had 1.5 hours to sunset. Where would she go if she was at the refuge at 4PM?

Snipped for Focus

So here is the dilemma with this postulation. I would think if this scenario actually unfolded, ED would have had to be in reach of the Pic de Sauvegarde cell tower to interact with DC at around 4pm. I believe we know there is no cellular service at the Refuge but there is service a bit (how far?) beyond the Refuge. She could have made it to that further point beyond the Refuge and then connected with DC. Is there any way to know what the range of the Pic de S cell tower is - meaning what is the range of the signal so that a phone call made or data transmitted would ping off of that tower?

And if ED did march past the Refuge (stopping for water or not), your time estimate would give her 1.5 hours of hiking. If we believe ED would stop her hike at sunset (i.e. 5:30pm), where on / off the trail beyond the Refuge would that be? I think this potential scenario is worth flushing out a bit more if anyone else is game. Trying to keep options open!

 

[otto]

Snipped for Focus

Well, here are some sources that may intrigue you. They're not a great selection but they may offer some fodder to consider. And I believe ED is a personal fitness trainer (right?) and has I'd say, a solid athletic background.

1. Peer Reviewed, General Benefits of Chia Seeds: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4926888/pdf/13197_2015_Article_1967.pdf

2. Physician Co-Author with Mainstream Credentials:
Gel Water For Increasing Hydration Support | Goop

3. Running Media Outlet Article - mentions MSM coverage of benefits, NFL use, and a blurb on hydration benefits
Chia Seeds for Runners: Power Your Run with This Ancient Superfood - Fleet Feet St. Louis

Abstract from the peer reviewed article:

"The ancient grain is becoming enormously popular in modern food regimen in many countries; ... believed to have cardiac, hepatic protective effects, anti-ageing and anti-carcinogenic characteristics ... beneficial for the digestive system. Therapeutic effects of chia in the control of diabetes, dyslipidaemia, hypertension, as anti-inflammatory, antioxidant, anti-blood clotting, laxative, antidepressant, anti-anxiety, analgesic, vision and immune improver is scientifically established."
​

Preventing dehydration is not mentioned as a therapeutic value.

​

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4926888/pdf/13197_2015_Article_1967.pdf

 

[otto]

Snipped for Focus

So here is the dilemma with this postulation. I would think if this scenario actually unfolded, ED would have had to be in reach of the Pic de Sauvegarde cell tower to interact with DC at around 4pm. I believe we know there is no cellular service at the Refuge but there is service a bit (how far?) beyond the Refuge. She could have made it to that further point beyond the Refuge and then connected with DC. Is there any way to know what the range of the Pic de S cell tower is - meaning what is the range of the signal so that a phone call made or data transmitted would ping off of that tower?

And if ED did march past the Refuge (stopping for water or not), your time estimate would give her 1.5 hours of hiking. If we believe ED would stop her hike at sunset (i.e. 5:30pm), where on / off the trail beyond the Refuge would that be? I think this potential scenario is worth flushing out a bit more if anyone else is game. Trying to keep options open!

3 hour hike from the Hospice de France to the Port de Venasque, 2.5 hour hike from the Refuge de Venasque to the Hospice de France. She couldn't have made it there in daylight.

Randonnée Pic Sauvegarde 2738m – Les Topos Pyrénées par Mariano

 

[RedHaus]

3 hour hike from the Hospice de France to the Port de Venasque, 2.5 hour hike from the Refuge de Venasque to the Hospice de France. She couldn't have made it there in daylight.

Snipped for Focus

Great sleuthing, Otto! I had the same conclusion just from looking at the satellite trail map, below - lots of switchbacks... a beautiful hike! And I would have thought the French LE would have seen evidence of ED at the Hospice de France if she had gotten there on 11/22 or 23. I don't know... this may be dead end. But is it worth trying to figure out where she might have ended up hiking 1 / 1.5 hours past the refuge - where she may have camped for the night?

Pic Source: Google Maps

 

[otto]

Sunset at 5:30 PM.

 

[otto]

Bivouacking sounded like something new for her - was there a recent post from her about sleeping in the open?