Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #2

[RickshawFan]

No I'm not in a valley, but I've walked in those mountains and although you can be in the shade of the mountains at that time of the evening it is not darkness rather twilight. There is still reasonable visibility albeit diminishing. I was just concerned that for people here unfamiliar with the Pyrenees and these latitudes the image conjured was one of night-like darkness when that just isn't the case. Also the webcams show a reasonable level of visibility.

ED may have decided she had to hurry to beat the darkness.

 

[stmarysmead]

Looking at the routes from Port de Venasque to the Refuge de Venasque, there are two options: upper trail, and lower trail near the lake.

The time would be roughly 5PM, assuming all was well so far. She would be in shade because it was 30 minutes from sunset. It would be colder in the shade, 5° C (41° F).

View attachment 276537

Archive météo 42.7°N 0.64°E

View attachment 276534

Boums de Venasque - Bagnères de Luchon

View attachment 276533

Refuge de Venasque Pic de Sauvegarde Hospice de France GPS track, route, trail

Thank you so much! These are amazing...and terrifying in the possibilities they present.

 

[otto]

Yikes, that middle photo.

I had noticed previously—and this photo reminded me—that from above you can see very clearly what's underwater at the margins of the lake. SAR evidently had access to drones, too, so that could have put them directly overhead. This means, if ED fell into the water, she must have fallen into a deep part. Otherwise, she'd be visible. The bottom of that cliff.....

So many possibilities. Perhaps she slipped peering over a ledge, perhaps she opted for the lake trail thinking that it would be shorter - perhaps thinking she could collect some water along the way. My experience is that temperatures are colder near mountain lakes and rivers.

Mountain lakes are typically extremely cold, even during Summer. Drowning occurs in minutes. Wearing a pack, she wouldn't be able to get out of the water in time even if she was able to release the pack.

Includes drone footage of the area

 

[stmarysmead]

RickshawFan...I definitely see yr excellent point about the depth of the shadows...even before sunset.

 

[otto]

Trail near the lake



Link

 

[Gibbo214]

Trail near the lake

View attachment 276546

Link

Oh dear, that does not look like a route that anyone should try alone.

 

[otto]

Is depth perception distorted at dusk?

 

[otto]

Oh dear, that does not look like a route that anyone should try alone.

... as the sun is going down on the other side of the mountain range.

 

[stmarysmead]

My impression from reading their blog posts and social media is that this was a devoted couple that were intensely introspective. They were committed to each other and to working through their rough patches in a mutually satisfying away.

IMO...Their posts reveal that the pandemic had caused a period of re-evaluation for them. Further information from media reveals that Dan was supposedly tiring of their Nomadic lifestyle but Esther was not.

It seems one solution may have been for Esther to conquer her fears about trekking alone. She frequently mentions pushing herself to not be afraid and she credits Dan’s encouragement. Remember the comment when she reached the summit...that she could hear Dan telling her that she could do it! There are numerous references to pushing herself to overcome her anxieties. In order to continue to pursue the lifestyle she loved, she may have felt that she had to be able to do it all, handle whatever...all on her own.

IMO this was their compromise. A more settled lifestyle for Dan and solo “adventures” for Esther. It’s tragic that, seemingly, as she prepared herself for this change, it had to end this way.

 

[otto]

It's possible that, as she was descending near dusk in the shadows of the Pyrenees, she made a mistake in depth perception.

Boeing tested pilots in daylight, dusk and night conditions for depth cues (forward and peripherally). That tells me that depth perception may not be the same in daylight, dusk and night.

What time would she be at lake trail at this location if she was at the summit at 4PM? 4:35?




https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a087828.pdf



See above upthread for link

 

[RickshawFan]

So many possibilities. Perhaps she slipped peering over a ledge, perhaps she opted for the lake trail thinking that it would be shorter - perhaps thinking she could collect some water along the way. My experience is that temperatures are colder near mountain lakes and rivers.

Mountain lakes are typically extremely cold, even during Summer. Drowning occurs in minutes. Wearing a pack, she wouldn't be able to get out of the water in time even if she was able to release the pack.

Includes drone footage of the area

This video is soooo helpful. Heck, I'd have fallen off the Pic. But there are so many other areas to fall off into trouble.

 

[RickshawFan]

Is depth perception distorted at dusk?

Mine is. Dusk totally confuses my brain.

 

[10ofRods]

So many possibilities. Perhaps she slipped peering over a ledge, perhaps she opted for the lake trail thinking that it would be shorter - perhaps thinking she could collect some water along the way. My experience is that temperatures are colder near mountain lakes and rivers.

Mountain lakes are typically extremely cold, even during Summer. Drowning occurs in minutes. Wearing a pack, she wouldn't be able to get out of the water in time even if she was able to release the pack.

Includes drone footage of the area

This is very helpful. No way would I have been willing to risk dragging water out of the lake next to the Refuge after dark. And the other lakes are even worse, in terms of margins. You'd need a cord and something like a half gallon or gallon bottle to try and scoop water and it would still be awkward. Water planning along this route would surely including the lake near the refuge - but not at night.

If her request for fruit was borne out of dehydration, the entire picture does point toward a terrible accident.

 

[otto]

My impression from reading their blog posts and social media is that this was a devoted couple that were intensely introspective. They were committed to each other and to working through their rough patches in a mutually satisfying away.

IMO...Their posts reveal that the pandemic had caused a period of re-evaluation for them. Further information from media reveals that Dan was supposedly tiring of their Nomadic lifestyle but Esther was not.

It seems one solution may have been for Esther to conquer her fears about trekking alone. She frequently mentions pushing herself to not be afraid and she credits Dan’s encouragement. Remember the comment when she reached the summit...that she could hear Dan telling her that she could do it! There are numerous references to pushing herself to overcome her anxieties. In order to continue to pursue the lifestyle she loved, she may have felt that she had to be able to do it all, handle whatever...all on her own.

IMO this was their compromise. A more settled lifestyle for Dan and solo “adventures” for Esther. It’s tragic that, seemingly, as she prepared herself for this change, it had to end this way.

I didn't realize that she was testing solo abilities with this trip. She must have been very confident after repeated successes throughout her month long solo hikes.

Conquering the same mountain twice must have given her plenty of confidence. It's exciting to challenge skills in nature, but risky to minimize daylight hours as a challenge.

 

[RickshawFan]

It seems one solution may have been for Esther to conquer her fears about trekking alone. She frequently mentions pushing herself to not be afraid and she credits Dan’s encouragement. Remember the comment when she reached the summit...that she could hear Dan telling her that she could do it! There are numerous references to pushing herself to overcome her anxieties. In order to continue to pursue the lifestyle she loved, she may have felt that she had to be able to do it all, handle whatever...all on her own.

Snipped for focus

This is one big reason I'm so convinced there was an accident. Once you stop listening to your fear, you put yourself in grave danger, because you've eliminated risk assessment from your trip. There is plenty to be afraid of in the outdoors. There is certainly no shame in being cautious. Deliberately going "outside your comfort zone" throws caution to the winds.
I'm a big fan of The Gift of Fear, by Gavin de Becker. https://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Su...d=1608692688&sprefix=fear+book,aps,173&sr=8-1

 

[otto]

Snipped for focus

This is one big reason I'm so convinced there was an accident. Once you stop listening to your fear, you put yourself in grave danger, because you've eliminated risk assessment from your trip. There is plenty to be afraid of in the outdoors. There is certainly no shame in being cautious. Deliberately going "outside your comfort zone" throws caution to the winds.
I'm a big fan of The Gift of Fear, by Gavin de Becker. https://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Survival-Signals-Violence/dp/0440226198/ref=sr_1_1?crid=20QA3VTN0Z67S&dchild=1&keywords=gift+of+fear+book+gavin+debecker&qid=1608692688&sprefix=fear+book,aps,173&sr=8-1

There's not knowing, and there's knowing but choosing to challenge. I think she was aware of risks, but chose to challenge.

In my opinion, when someone chooses to challenge nature, they are feeling more alive than ever before, confident that they can conquer until that 0.1% that could go wrong goes wrong.

 

[RickshawFan]

There's not knowing, and there's knowing but choosing to challenge. I think she was aware of risks, but chose to challenge.

In my opinion, when someone chooses to challenge nature, they are feeling more alive than ever before, confident that they can conquer until that 0.1% that could go wrong goes wrong.

I would up that figure to 10%.
And then you get tragedies like the 1986 Mount Hood Disaster. Hubris.

ED clearly didn't feel comfortable on at least one of her trips. But she talked herself out of her fear. Fear serves a purpose: it keeps you safe.

 

[otto]

I would up that figure to 10%.
And then you get tragedies like the 1986 Mount Hood Disaster. Hubris.

ED clearly didn't feel comfortable on at least one of her trips. But she talked herself out of her fear. Fear serves a purpose: it keeps you safe.

Nature can be unpredictable. Devastating

"The first part of this story may be familiar, especially to those in Western Canada. It starts with a group of backcountry skiers venturing into British Columbia’s Glacier National Park in early 2003, and ends with one of the deadliest avalanches in Canadian history. Seven people lost their lives to the slide. Adding to the horror, the victims were schoolkids."​

Buried alive: An avalanche survivor breaks his silence

Some backcountry trekkers rate risk below what is realistic.

 

[RickshawFan]

Nature can be unpredictable. Devastating

"The first part of this story may be familiar, especially to those in Western Canada. It starts with a group of backcountry skiers venturing into British Columbia’s Glacier National Park in early 2003, and ends with one of the deadliest avalanches in Canadian history. Seven people lost their lives to the slide. Adding to the horror, the victims were schoolkids."​

Buried alive: An avalanche survivor breaks his silence

Some backcountry trekkers rate risk below what is realistic.

Astonishing how similar this is to the accident I cited!
Bottom line: your comfort zone has nothing to do with nature's behavior. Nature does its thing regardless. You do everything right, get experience, have good gear, and you can easily assume nature will go along with your plan. If only you'd let go of your fear.
This is my fear for ED: she thought "going outside your comfort zone" would be all it took, given the rest of her experience.

 

[Andreee]

Yes! I live in western Canada and there is so much to be leery of while hiking and skiing. Although that area ED was hiking in looked fairly open, I'm thinking the terrain was deceiving, whereby the trail went right by bodies of water that would've been very cold and from what I've read deep! Heck, I went on a simple hike recently here in BC and due to a slight slant and a few rocks on the trail I was trying to be cautious, yet slipped and broke my wrist. It doesn't take much sometimes! And I was alone, but luckily an ex-paramedic happened by to take me to hospital. Not good to hike alone.