Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #5

[otto]

I wonder if more bones and/or equipment will eventually be found lower down the scree slope in Cirque de la Glere? If they are, it would suggest a fall. The body could have been hidden amongst the scree/obscured by snow when French LE were searching in Nov/Dec 2020, and some of the bones recently separated and relocated by animals. When the news first broke that bones had been found, I had wondered whether French LE might not have searched the Port de la Glere area as thoroughly, especially given the information DC provided about her probable route. However, the ActuToulouse article ZaZara posted above suggests otherwise - "the area was thoroughly combed by the police during the various search operations on site" and the "bones were not there a few weeks ago".

If more isn't found, it adds further weight to the bearded vulture theory...

I like Otto's thoughts (post 627) about her last messages. Why would you say that you "might dip into France" if that was where you were headed immediately? If she didn't go to the Refuge de Venasque on 22/11, the only feasible way between Pic de Sauvegarde and Port de la Glere would be to descend back to the road on the Spanish side. I wonder if she descended on 22/11, climbed up to Port de la Glere on 23/11, and then intended to possibly walk the Chemin de Imperatrice round to Refuge de Venasque (where she was hoping there might be an open winter room to spend the night of 24/11), crossing back over into Spain at Port de Venasque. It would explain her comments about not being sure whether she'd have signal - she already knew the situation down in the valley on the Spanish side, having stayed at Cabane de Besurtas on 21/11. However, why wasn't she seen? Did anyone stay at the Cabane on 22/11, who could help rule out whether she stayed there again? Did anyone see a lone female walker on the way up to Port de la Glere on 23/11, who perhaps hadn't made the connection that she was ED because she was headed in the 'wrong direction'?

Something struck me today (enough to make me finally register rather than just lurk), about why she might have reversed her route... On the French IGN map (available online at www.geoportail.gouv.fr), the descent into Cirque de la Glere looks steeper and much longer than the one to Refuge de Venasque. She would have seen that the descent from Port de Venasque to Refuge de Venasque was passable on 22/11, on her way up Pic de Sauvegarde. You can't see the Port de la Glere from the summit of Pic de Sauvegarde (it is hidden behind Pic de Montagnette). If she had continued anti-clockwise around the Chemin de Imperatrice, she wouldn't have known until the last minute whether Port de la Glere was passable. However, if she had descended and then walked the route in the opposite direction, starting with Port de la Glere, it removes that uncertainty. She would then know if she could "dip into France", or not. She already knew she could definitely cross back into Spain at the other end...

I agree that it's still possible that the planned hike was from Port de la Glere to the Refuge de Venasque to Port de Venasque (as she stated), or from Port de Venasque to the Refuge to Port de la Glere. If she stayed in Spain overnight after the summit hike and approached France through the Port de la Glere, the question is: how soon would she have noticed the dangerous conditions? Did she hike some distance down the trail, thinking the trail would improve, and then realize she was too far to turn back? Was she unable to turn around and cross the border back into Spain due to slippery steep slope, leaving her no choice but to continue into France?





Thank you for the map link! It's much clearer than most maps. I combined the topo map with your map to see what the terrain looks like at 2200 meters.



Géoportail
OpenTopoMap - Topographische Karten aus OpenStreetMap

 

[RickshawFan]

This may have been covered earlier -I apologize, if so. However, I'm wondering how common it is for solo hikers to be out and about without any kind of locating device? It seems like that is one of the many items available these days that would really mitigate the risks involved in hiking solo.

I believe that they can be expensive, but what about having even just an old fashioned flare on one's person? I know, I know: WEIGHT. But, also.....LIFE.

Any thoughts here?

A flare might not be very helpful, and it might be kinda bulky (on a boat they're super useful, though) and burn out quickly. However, MATCHES, the kind of birthday candles you can never blow out (wind can't blow them out, either), and start a fire, a SMOKY fire if you can. Cotton balls dipped in vaseline. This kit will have the dual purpose of keeping you warm if, e.g. you're building a fire in a hut or bothy. Have your brightly colored tarp super visible. Try burning a piece of it to make something super smoky.
These days, only some models of PLBs require a subscription. There's a small one that'll let you do a one-time emergency call IIRC (I want one!)

 

[stmarysmead]

Your theory seems entirely plausible but if that is the case then she clearly didn’t communicate what she was doing to DC. We have seen the text messages from 22nd (or some of them) but after the texts, they also had a phone conversation. That may or may not have included more discussion about her planned route but if ED was as sensible as we are led to believe and not a “risk taker” surely she would have ensured DC knew her exact plans? He seemed sure she was going to spend the night of 22nd at the Refuge de Venasque and let’s face it she would have presumably headed there more or less straight away after talking to him - so not much time to change her mind. And if she did change her mind, a quick text to let him know?!

My mind always goes back to the way ED left on this trip…leaving in the camper at night, only to spend the night a hour away in a parking lot. I believe her initial trip was only around 4 hours.

And I remember the words attributed to her by the friend she shared an evening with the month before…that she and Dan were on a break, their future together uncertain.

Yes, and other small details. And the repeated extensions of what was supposed to have been a short trip.

I don’t think ED was sharing as much with Dan as he’d like us to believe. I think he was trying to behave as if all was well, and she was distancing a bit. This is why he waited to call for help. He was attributing the long silence to her new behavior, not to an accident.

 

[otto]

Your theory seems entirely plausible but if that is the case then she clearly didn’t communicate what she was doing to DC. We have seen the text messages from 22nd (or some of them) but after the texts, they also had a phone conversation. That may or may not have included more discussion about her planned route but if ED was as sensible as we are led to believe and not a “risk taker” surely she would have ensured DC knew her exact plans? He seemed sure she was going to spend the night of 22nd at the Refuge de Venasque and let’s face it she would have presumably headed there more or less straight away after talking to him - so not much time to change her mind. And if she did change her mind, a quick text to let him know?!

We were all fairly surprised that she would cross into France at 4:30 PM and questioned whether that was a good idea so late in the day. Perhaps she didn't, and instead spent the night in Spain, perhaps sleeping open or back at the Refuge in Spain.

The following morning, per the information she gave to Dan, she planned to hike to Port de la Glere. The dossier includes information from Esther that she planned to (1) hike to Port de la Glere the following day, that (2) she might dip into France, that (3) she hoped the Refuge had a Winter room.

Dan turned that around and said that, from the summit, (2) she dipped into France, she (3) hoped the Refuge was open and she would (1) hike to Port de la Glere.

Dan expected that she would check-in the following morning, as he assumed that she spent the night at Refuge de Venasque and he knew that there was a wifi signal just beyond the Refuge. There is no evidence that she stayed at the Refuge, and she did not check-in that morning. That all fits with Esther spending the night in Spain and hiking to the Port de la Glere the following day. Dipping into France might have meant getting into difficulty quickly with steep, slippery terrain and wind gusts, as it would have been at least mid-day by the time she arrived.

 

[RickshawFan]

I wonder if more bones and/or equipment will eventually be found lower down the scree slope in Cirque de la Glere? If they are, it would suggest a fall. The body could have been hidden amongst the scree/obscured by snow when French LE were searching in Nov/Dec 2020, and some of the bones recently separated and relocated by animals. When the news first broke that bones had been found, I had wondered whether French LE might not have searched the Port de la Glere area as thoroughly, especially given the information DC provided about her probable route. However, the ActuToulouse article ZaZara posted above
suggests otherwise - "the area was thoroughly combed by the police during the various search operations on site" and the "bones were not there a few weeks ago".

If more isn't found, it adds further weight to the bearded vulture theory...

I like Otto's thoughts (post 627) about her last messages. Why would you say that you "might dip into France" if that was where you were headed immediately? If she didn't go to the Refuge de Venasque on 22/11, the only feasible way between Pic de Sauvegarde and Port de la Glere would be to descend back to the road on the Spanish side. I wonder if she descended on 22/11, climbed up to Port de la Glere on 23/11, and then intended to possibly walk the Chemin de Imperatrice round to Refuge de Venasque (where she was hoping there might be an open winter room to spend the night of 24/11), crossing back over into Spain at Port de Venasque. It would explain her comments about not being sure whether she'd have signal - she already knew the situation down in the valley on the Spanish side, having stayed at Cabane de Besurtas on 21/11. However, why wasn't she seen? Did anyone stay at the Cabane on 22/11, who could help rule out whether she stayed there again? Did anyone see a lone female walker on the way up to Port de la Glere on 23/11, who perhaps hadn't made the connection that she was ED because she was headed in the 'wrong direction'?

Something struck me today (enough to make me finally register rather than just lurk), about why she might have reversed her route... On the French IGN map (available online at www.geoportail.gouv.fr), the descent into Cirque de la Glere looks steeper and much longer than the one to Refuge de Venasque. She would have seen that the descent from Port de Venasque to Refuge de Venasque was passable on 22/11, on her way up Pic de Sauvegarde. You can't see the Port de la Glere from the summit of Pic de Sauvegarde (it is hidden behind Pic de Montagnette). If she had continued anti-clockwise around the Chemin de Imperatrice, she wouldn't have known until the last minute whether Port de la Glere was passable. However, if she had descended and then walked the route in the opposite direction, starting with Port de la Glere, it removes that uncertainty. She would then know if she could "dip into France", or not. She already knew she could definitely cross back into Spain at the other end...

Great post! Welcome to WS!

 

[otto]

Esther's words:

(1) Port de la Glere the following day
(2) Might dip into France
(3) Hope Refuge de Venasque has a Winter room

16:04: “I’m heading off now…Maybe have signal but not sure. Sorry. I think I can see you !!!” 16:06: “Still in the same area. Tomorrow heading for Port de le Glere or something spelt like that. Might dip into France. Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can xx”
​

Dan's interpretation:

(1) Might dip into France
(2) Hope Refuge de Venasque has a Winter room
(3) Port de la Glere the following day

​

p. 7
https://42cc80b7-be3b-41e3-a85b-18b...d/4addd9_d8c55b489c6f445b96d6324dd882f5a1.pdf

 

[Hexe]

So true about the shoes. I’ve just looked at her last FB posts on the Esther and Dan page. They look wholly inadequate for mountain hiking. No ankle support at all by the looks of it. She must have been banking on good weather conditions and if she encountered snow, I can’t see them being sufficiently robust.

Even if she did not encounter snow, these shoes might have been the source of a huge problem. When you hike solo in the mountains even the sprained ankle can lead to a disaster. How? Let's say Esther sprained her ankle somewhere on the trail. It slowed her down, so she was still up in the mountains, on the trail, when the night came. Darkness, cold, maybe hypothermia setting in and depriving Esther of clear thinking... She goes off the trail and falls.

 

[Tortoise]

Esther's words:

(1) Port de la Glere the following day
(2) Might dip into France
(3) Hope Refuge de Venasque has a Winter room

16:04: “I’m heading off now…Maybe have signal but not sure. Sorry. I think I can see you !!!” 16:06: “Still in the same area. Tomorrow heading for Port de le Glere or something spelt like that. Might dip into France. Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can xx”
​

Dan's interpretation:

(1) Might dip into France
(2) Hope Refuge de Venasque has a Winter room
(3) Port de la Glere the following day

​

p. 7
https://42cc80b7-be3b-41e3-a85b-18b...d/4addd9_d8c55b489c6f445b96d6324dd882f5a1.pdf

Yes I think that she would have written that all in the order in which she planned to do it. It probably didn't fit with the physical map DC had seen and he went with the map to work it out, rather than Esther's words. "Still in the same area" is important, it means Spain, I think.

 

[RickshawFan]

Even if she did not encounter snow, these shoes might have been the source of a huge problem. When you hike solo in the mountains even the sprained ankle can lead to a disaster. How? Let's say Esther sprained her ankle somewhere on the trail. It slowed her down, so she was still up in the mountains, on the trail, when the night came. Darkness, cold, maybe hypothermia setting in and depriving Esther of clear thinking... She goes off the trail and falls.

In DC's list of equipment, ED wasn't carrying any first aid. I didn't see any sign of Ace bandage, duct tape (for your ankle or your boots), bandaids, aspirin, antihistamine..... I don't think we've heard whether ED had wilderness first aid training?
I think hikers in trouble sometimes forget they can go back. I once went on a group hike that was to be a 9-mile loop. This was an excellent trail, well-kept, well-traveled, moderate, clear. It was midsummer in the Cascades. We got to about mile 8 and came to a snowfield. There was no way to tell where the trail went. Luckily, we had experienced leaders (who knew the trail very well, but were also disoriented in this spot). They made us turn around immediately, even though the afternoon was getting late. Yep, 8 miles back. We were all safe.
I'm not sure at that stage of my experience, I would have done that. I maybe would have looked at a map to see how to cross the snowfield. But the outcome wouldn't have been certain, and darkness might have fallen while I was looking around. The choice to hike back 8 miles on good trail, that we already knew because we'd done it once, could hike it with confidence and quickly, and had a certain outcome was all about experience. I lucked out and got in a car back for the 2-hour drive with a voluble SAR person who was full of stories, and now that we'd done this safety maneuver, was really hyped..... So, all was good.

 

[Kazibar]

I think the One Woman Walks blog which is the blog of a woman who walked alone from Kiev to Santiago de Compostela. She’s a tough woman who crossed the length of the alps as well as the Pyrenees. But if you read her accounts of trying to take the high route across the pyrenees last winter you’d see she sometimes took a route she thought would work but found at the end that the last few hundred meters was a true climbing route and had to turn back. She’s got lots of savvy and common sense. I’m not sure if Esther reached a place where the path ahead was covered in ice and dangerous would have turned round.
Reading that blog gave me an idea of what conditions can be like up there. Bbbbbrrrr.

Also in the Spanish mountains in 2019, I was on wolf watching but also saw a flock of 30 or 40 vultures strip a red deer carcass to bones in about an hour. If they found her, it could have happened before SAR were even alerted.

 

[Cascadia Mount]

Dan is deluding himself about the hike being easy for Esther. There are many accidents on "easy" trails because people stop being cautious. As well as not having proper hiking boots which negates whatever claims are made about ED's experience. I hope the bones are identified quickly so the family can mourn.

 

[Satchie]

This is a striking statement and I am sure anyone who reads it will have the same questions - what does "been in a cavity" mean - cave, crevasse, hole dug in the ground, covered with rocks or scree? And how would that be known - coloration, amount of decay, amount of tissue?

Are there any forensics experts among us? If so please chime in!

My guess would be the decay was not what would be expected if it was out in the open, meaning it perhaps was not exposed to months of spring thaw/freeze cycles, rain, and destruction by bacteria and insects. The signs of attack by predators might be visible.

Also, SAR would turn to this explanation for why they haven't found the rest of the remains.

The thought occurs to me then, of someone passing away while sheltering, rather than falling.

 

[RedHaus]

Esther's words:

(1) Port de la Glere the following day
(2) Might dip into France
(3) Hope Refuge de Venasque has a Winter room

16:04: “I’m heading off now…Maybe have signal but not sure. Sorry. I think I can see you !!!” 16:06: “Still in the same area. Tomorrow heading for Port de le Glere or something spelt like that. Might dip into France. Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can xx”
​

Dan's interpretation:

(1) Might dip into France
(2) Hope Refuge de Venasque has a Winter room
(3) Port de la Glere the following day

​

p. 7
https://42cc80b7-be3b-41e3-a85b-18b...d/4addd9_d8c55b489c6f445b96d6324dd882f5a1.pdf

Excellent analysis, Otto. For the first time in this case, I feel we are closer to the truth about what ED intended to do. How far she got, we just don't know since the found remains could have been carried from far away (e.g. back in the area of the cabane de la busertas, as someone has recently suggested).

And I recall a big debate in January this year about whether ED took a "clockwise" vs. "anti-clockwise" loop. I believe now that Dan thought it was going to be "anti-clockwise" and ED likely strived for a "clockwise" loop. Perhaps for the reasons that @yddraigfach (that's going to be hard name to recall, but welcome!) stated.

 

[RedHaus]

The thought occurs to me then, of someone passing away while sheltering, rather than falling.

RSBM, BBM

Yes, @Satchie, I had that thought too. Perhaps ED did injure herself - sprained ankle like @Hexe just mentioned. And she knew she was at great risk of hypothermia for all the reasons we've been discussing. She goes off trail to find shelter and perhaps discovers a small cave or shimmies underneath some boulders to get away from the cold fog and wind, perhaps. With inadequate clothing and bedding and food and water, she then succumbs to hypothermia in her sleep. Hopefully a peaceful end.

I also consider whether ED was suicidal, which I believe the evidence could support. And the "cavity" could have been a special cave or crevice along the border ridge near port de la glere - just "a dip" into France if she came from the Spain side as @otto suggests. And there, hidden, ED nestled in and took her life. Hopefully a peaceful end.

And then we have the third party theory DC has focused on... could ED's body have been buried in a "cavity" of rocks. I guess we still don't know enough to rule this out.

 

[Grouse]

I think it's important to remember that the messages in the dossier are only a subset of the communications that occurred between DC and ED and other family members.

"Selected messages received from Esther are quoted below to indicate the times she set out, the times she subsequently reached Pic de Sauvegarde on both days and her happiness at the time.The full transcripts and screenshots of all communication have been provided to the police in both France and Spain."​

 

[Officer Dibble]

Disparition d'Esther Dingley : des os a priori humains, déplacés par des animaux, retrouvés dans les Pyrénées | Actu Toulouse

Although they were discovered at an altitude covered by snow for a good part of the winter, these bones were not there a few weeks ago.

According to the first findings of the investigation, they have "certainly been in a cavity", and have probably been "moved recently by animals."
BBM

SBM. That is really interesting. Was she injured but sheltering, then died? JMO MOO

 

[otto]

Yes I think that she would have written that all in the order in which she planned to do it. It probably didn't fit with the physical map DC had seen and he went with the map to work it out, rather than Esther's words. "Still in the same area" is important, it means Spain, I think.

The more I think about it, the more I believe it's important to listen to Esther's last words about her route. I've wavered several times, often thinking that Dan knows something more about what Esther means, but perhaps that's the wrong approach. Even Dan must have initially said that she was hiking from Port de la Glere to Refuge de Venasque to Port de la Venasque given that this is the described route in most early news reports.

Assuming Esther's route was in the order she presented, then Esther arrived at Port de la Glere around noon and crossed into France. She may have thought she would hike a short distance to judge the terrain. That may have been enough for it to become impossible to turn around even though it was dangerous to go forward.

 

[otto]

Excellent analysis, Otto. For the first time in this case, I feel we are closer to the truth about what ED intended to do. How far she got, we just don't know since the found remains could have been carried from far away (e.g. back in the area of the cabane de la busertas, as someone has recently suggested).

And I recall a big debate in January this year about whether ED took a "clockwise" vs. "anti-clockwise" loop. I believe now that Dan thought it was going to be "anti-clockwise" and ED likely strived for a "clockwise" loop. Perhaps for the reasons that @yddraigfach (that's going to be hard name to recall, but welcome!) stated.

I think so too - clockwise, rather than counter clockwise. Everything falls into place. No evidence that she was at Refuge de Venasque because she didn't make it that far. No communication the following morning because she wasn't in the vicinity of the wifi near the refuge. She was not foolishly hiking from the Summit to Refuge de Venasque in the shadow of the mountain at dusk.

After climbing the Pic de Sauvegarde, she remained overnight in Spain. The following day she hiked to Port de la Glere. Shortly after entering France she ran into trouble. Searches started 5 days later, snow and cloud were in the area where her body was found on the 6th day (per the dossier).

 

[RickshawFan]

I think the One Woman Walks blog which is the blog of a woman who walked alone from Kiev to Santiago de Compostela. She’s a tough woman who crossed the length of the alps as well as the Pyrenees. But if you read her accounts of trying to take the high route across the pyrenees last winter you’d see she sometimes took a route she thought would work but found at the end that the last few hundred meters was a true climbing route and had to turn back. She’s got lots of savvy and common sense. I’m not sure if Esther reached a place where the path ahead was covered in ice and dangerous would have turned round.
Reading that blog gave me an idea of what conditions can be like up there. Bbbbbrrrr.

Also in the Spanish mountains in 2019, I was on wolf watching but also saw a flock of 30 or 40 vultures strip a red deer carcass to bones in about an hour. If they found her, it could have happened before SAR were even alerted.

Loving this post.
Yes, "tough woman" is full of experienced insights. She also was in the mountains a month before ED, so all the difficulties she cites would have been considerably magnified in late November.
Good to know about the vultures. That must have been fascinating.
The hair might have been caught under a rock, after the skull blew there or something.

 

[otto]

Disparition d'Esther Dingley : des os a priori humains, déplacés par des animaux, retrouvés dans les Pyrénées | Actu Toulouse

Although they were discovered at an altitude covered by snow for a good part of the winter, these bones were not there a few weeks ago.

According to the first findings of the investigation, they have "certainly been in a cavity", and have probably been "moved recently by animals."

BBM

SAR must have compared footage of two weeks ago with the location where the remains were found in order to assert that her remains were not there two weeks ago.

Animal activity would be birds, lynx, bears.

Griffon vultures eating the carcass of a red deer in the Pyrenees (Spain).
By Mario Modesto Mata - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, File:Buitres leonados (Gyps fulvus) 0.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

The griffon vulture is 93–122 cm (37–48 in) long with a 2.3–2.8 m (7.5–9.2 ft) wingspan. (link)