State rests rebuttal case- thread #163

[EquallyDivided]

Judging by the way she lookedin court thelast two days I don't think she believes she has much of a chance of an acquittal.

Agreed. Her face is slack and her brows are drawn from the center. This is the 'pity pose' in trying to convey victim and innocence to the jury. Much different from her 'defiance' face.

The many faces of evil.

 

[gwenabob]

Its something most people are not aware of. Most of the ballons end up in our oceans and in the bellies of marine life. Its against the law in NY to throw rice at weddings. Dry rice in the bellies of birds expands and it results in their stomach exploding and killing the birds. I dont know why there was never any real campain to educate the public on ballons and marine life.

While I agree with you on the balloon issue, that rice and birds issue has been debunked. Just a myth.

http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/birdrice.asp

 

[bettybaby00]

Everyone that is posting autopsy pictures - can you please go back and edit to make them thumbnails? I cannot do this for you, so if I have to, I will have to remove the post.

If you find your post of the pics was removed, you may repost it USING thumbnails.

Thanks so much. I'll give everyone an hour or so to edit and then I'll remove them, if necessary.

Salem

Sorry didn't know...I edited to URL.

 

[Maryann123]

Watching NG (sorry peeps) and Juror question was, why didn't you just shoot Travis again, rather than getting a knife. Her answer. When he hit me, I dropped the gun and I didn't know where it went. OMG! She said she didn't know where the knife was either, so why go searching for a knife in another room, rather than a gun you just dropped 2 seconds ago? She's so dead!

 

[beetrice]

The one thing I found curious is that the Autopsy Report we are privy to is Redacted. I have read many other autopsy reports and I never thought this one looked complete. Is this normal, when an autopsy report is released to the public, that is initially redacted? If so, why?

Thanks for asking this Zuri- I have been meaning to ask this as well, what exactly is redacted and why, and requested by whom?

 

[Nezumi]

ITA. JM is now added to the proverbial "If you could invite any 5 people to dinner and conversation who would they be?" list. I think it would be fascinating to learn about trials he has done, how he prepares, how the HECK he remembers so much without notes (like the DT), etc.

Eidetic memory. My husband has one. He can recall, verbatim, everything he's ever heard or read with no effort whatsoever. It makes trying to argue with him infuriating.

 

[dani]

Judging by the way she lookedin court thelast two days I don't think she believes she has much of a chance of an acquittal.

I also think "her look" has something to do with her realizing that her days/months of being the STAR of this extravaganza are coming to an end. :twocents:

 

[DebinGA]

http://www.drstephenjohnson.com/all_articles/dangerousrelationships.html

Helps one to understand the Jodi/Travis relationship, why he couldn't let go and why she wouldn't let him. I pray my sons never meet a Jodi.

I'll try to finish that later, but I don't see Monica Lewinsky as the abuser in that relationship. I don't remember her threatening to bring BC down. It was "that woman, Miss Lewinsky" whose life was ruined, not his.

 

[Kaddy Wonders]

Does this help?

That's his left shoulder.

It is his chest.

 

[bettybaby00]

Amen!!

I have deliberately tried to stay away from those photos, and to see them not only included in this thread but reposted several times is skeeving me out.

Sorry didn't realize!

 

[rose222]

While knowing I'm going to be attacked for writing, this, I need to unload about Dr Horn. First, i think the evidence clearly shows 1st degree premeditated murder. Unequivocally. And what I'm going to write doesn't change that. But...

I feel the ME was the weakest link in the prosecution's case. His testimony felt off to me. His written report contradicted part of his testimony, but more importantly, he contradicted Flores. They made Flores out to be the "weak link" by saying he was mistaken about hearing Dr Horn say that TA was shot first. But I don't believe that. I think Horn, for whatever reason (and I don't attribute it to any sort of dishonest intent), was wishy-washy and contradictory in his testimony report. I believe Flores and find it strange that he's made out to be the scapegoat here.

I think Horn is overly defensive. I wonder if there is a possibility that the gunshot came first, but that Horn dug in his heels, refusing to acknowledge this due to pride or ego. Something is just off with his part in this trial.

So the jury can argue about which method of attack occurred first if they picked up on the discrepancies. Or not. It shouldn't change the outcome. IMO, whichever way one concludes, it's first degree murder.

Dr Flores is not a medical examiner. Dr Horn is and has performed thousands of autopsies. He mentioned that he has dealt with 25 calibre shot wounds 100to 200 times.

Like you, I hope the jury does realize that this was a premeditated murder in any case.

 

[Nali87]

While knowing I'm going to be attacked for writing, this, I need to unload about Dr Horn. First, i think the evidence clearly shows 1st degree premeditated murder. Unequivocally. And what I'm going to write doesn't change that. But...

I feel the ME was the weakest link in the prosecution's case. His testimony felt off to me. His written report contradicted part of his testimony, but more importantly, he contradicted Flores. They made Flores out to be the "weak link" by saying he was mistaken about hearing Dr Horn say that TA was shot first. But I don't believe that. I think Horn, for whatever reason (and I don't attribute it to any sort of dishonest intent), was wishy-washy and contradictory in his testimony report. I believe Flores and find it strange that he's made out to be the scapegoat here.

I think Horn is overly defensive. I wonder if there is a possibility that the gunshot came first, but that Horn dug in his heels, refusing to acknowledge this due to pride or ego. Something is just off with his part in this trial.

So the jury can argue about which method of attack occurred first if they picked up on the discrepancies. Or not. It shouldn't change the outcome. IMO, whichever way one concludes, it's first degree murder.

This might be a silly question but do you think it might affect the outcome some for sentencing? Is being stabbed 29 times then shot less cruel or just as cruel as being shot then stabbed? Would he have felt the same degree of horror/pain regardless of what came first?

 

[blergoyen]

Have you ever wondered what "reasonable doubt" is? I found these examples given by a judge:

"Referring to the partially unfurled flag behind him in his San Bernardino County Superior Court room, Judge Michael Knish told jurors they could probably decide beyond a reasonable doubt that it was an American flag, even though they couldn’t see all of it.

Or suppose he showed them a jigsaw puzzle of President Obama’s face that was missing a few small pieces, he said. They could still identify it beyond a reasonable doubt, though not beyond all possible doubt.

Finally, Knish said, if they were planning an event in San Bernardino in mid-August where the daytime temperature had to be at least 50 degrees, they could make their plans beyond a reasonable doubt despite the possibility of “some weird storm system.”

yeah, that's seems to be a major concern for any "slam dunk" case over the past couple of decades (maybe since OJ?). I can't remember who it was, but after the Casey Anthony verdict, someone on HLN said, and I'm paraphrasing, "The jury confused 'beyond a reasonable doubt,' with 'beyond a reason to doubt.'"

I think a lot of that fear may stem from the times we live in with the Innocence Project getting a lot of guilty verdicts over-turned based on new evidence, or usually new dna testing. In an age of video cameras on everyone's phone, I think jurys (juries?) have the mindset that if they don't see it with their own eyes on video, then it's not proven beyond a reasonable doubt. People like Jodi Arias benefit from this technology the wrong way.

 

[Thurston]

I'm bringing in discussion from thread 162 into this thread (about how Arias murdered Travis Alexander). There were many posters in thread 162 with great postings, however, I do not know how to bring their postings to this thread.

First of all, let's assume that the truth is: Arias was on her knees outside of TA's shower taking pictures of him. Arias drops the camera, TA comes after her in a rage, Arias fears for her life, she runs (after TA body slams her onto the tile) to the closet, where Arias floats to the top shelf and grabs a gun on her first try, Arias points the gun at Travis Alexander to make him stop coming after her, Arias accidently shoots Travis Alexander in the head.

Shot in the head, Travis Alexander is not a viable threat to Arias. Arias could have fled to safety, and, called the police. With medical care, Travis Alexander may have survived being shot in the head by Arias.

Let's assume that Arias (in her fog) got it all wrong - except for the part that TA was coming after her with the intent to kill her. Arias picks up the knife and stabs Travis Alexander in his chest hitting his superior vena cava. At this time, Travis Alexander is not a threat to Arias' life. Arias could have fled, called 911 - and it is possible that with quick medical care Travis Alexander could have survived being stabbed through his superior vena cava. Had Arias sliced Travis Alexander throat causing trauma to his jugular vein - Arias could have fled to safety, called 911 - and there is a chance, again, with prompt medical care that Travis Alexander could have survived trauma to the jugular vein.

Arias did not stop until she had inflicted 29 severe stab wounds, sliced his throat, and shot him in the head. If Arias was "fighting for her life" - IMO, Arias would have wanted to get as far away from Travis Alexander when she could (which would have been after Arias inflicted significant trauma to Travis Alexander's body).

Arias crime against Travis Alexander is beyond brutal and sadistic. After being stabbed in the heart - without medical intervention - Travis Alexander would have died. He would not have been in any condition to get himself to the hospital - Arias did not stop her attack on Travis Alexander until she slaughtered him.

The (roughly) two minutes from Travis Alexander sitting on the bottom of his shower - to Travis Alexander bloody with his murderer standing over him must have been the longest most agonizing two minutes in Travis Alexander's life. We do not know when Travis Alexander succumbed to his murderer Arias' brutal and savage attack. We do know that Travis Alexander had to have been terrified, fearful, and panic stricken as he strained to get away from his tormentor - only to be overcome with the the feeling of excruciating distress as he realized that he was in fact going to die.

Arias, on the other hand, was confident, delighted and pleased. Arias offered to help police with their murder investigation. Arias has shown nothing but arrogance, audacity, pride, and shamelessness.

IMO, a reasonable person shown Travis Alexander's slaughtered body and told, "you did this," would react by having a heart attack. A reasonable person with humility, and, empathy could not live with themselves knowing that they slaughtered a person (especially if they could not remember it) as a normal person would say, "I do not want to cause that type of carnage again therefore just lock me up and throw away the key."

Arias' audaciousness and defiance gives me the impression that only she knows exactly how she murdered Travis Alexander. IMO, Arias enjoys herself. In prison, I think that she will enjoy her "fan club," twittering, making art work. This is what is so upsetting - I do not see Arias unhappy, sad, or even timid about spending life in prison. To me, Arias believes that she is a star - she has achieved her dreams (no one will ever have Travis Alexander, no one that loved Travis Alexander will be able to remember him without those awful wounds joyfully caused by Arias).

I hope that Arias is one day asked to answer the question, "You loved Travis Alexander very much and did want him to die." Of course, Arias will say "yes," and talk about her amazing love for Travis Alexander as long as she is allowed. After this question, I would like to see her asked, "if you were afraid for you life - and did not want to harm Travis Alexander - just get away from - why didn't you after you caused the first major trauma to Travis Alexander's body - you could have gotten away safely called 911 and Travis Alexander could be alive today."

 

[Truth Detector]

Not sure what or how, but I think it somehow didn't all go according to plan. Could be it took her longer than expected to get him into the shower..could be she didn't anticipate him fighting back...that he didn't die fast enough...that she would make such a damn mess..and that b/c of one or all of the above she ran out of time.

I mean who the hell tries to clean up a bloody crime scene with cups of water from a bathroom sink??? That defies logic, or any sense that she thought it all out. But we know she did think it all out, but something went wrong and she panicked. It's always the little things that mess people up!

No question in my mind that the dynamic which went 'furthest south' for her was the fact that Travis just wouldn't die quickly and simply after she stabbed him in the shower. After all, that's the way it had always been planned and re-played over and over in her depraved and 'de-edified' mind for the past few weeks.

Travis actually got out of that shower stall after the laceration to the superior vena cava and made it to the sink. The lying torture-murderess continued stabbing and he continued attempting to fend off the knife all the while. But while she was alive, healthy and strong, his strength was depleted. Travis was rapidly dying and in semi-shock, still driven by his diminishing will to survive. Simply breathing was becoming impossible, a now-voluntary and seemingly insurmountable labor.

There is no way that Travis expected this.

He made it down the hallway, crawling, with Jodi mercilessly stabbing him, thrust after brutal thrust, until she grabbed his hair, yanked his head up, and with a bloodlust that none of us could ever imagine, drew that knife as deeply across his throat as she possibly could.

Travis was to die in that shower, and she would not have it any other way.

So she dragged him back to the bathroom and shot him through the brain. Now she could be certain Travis was finally dead and would stay that way.

Then she shoved his body, wedging into the shower, and posing it nude with legs spread in order to shower off her DNA, and to leave him 'exposed' to the world when discovered.

Most of us will never meet anyone so thoroughly evil during our lifetimes.

 

[shelley921]

http://www.drstephenjohnson.com/all_articles/dangerousrelationships.html

Helps one to understand the Jodi/Travis relationship, why he couldn't let go and why she wouldn't let him. I pray my sons never meet a Jodi.

great article-thanks for posting!

 

[Nali87]

I'm bringing in discussion from thread 162 into this thread (about how Arias murdered Travis Alexander). There were many posters in thread 162 with great postings, however, I do not know how to bring their postings to this thread.

First of all, let's assume that the truth is: Arias was on her knees outside of TA's shower taking pictures of him. Arias drops the camera, TA comes after her in a rage, Arias fears for her life, she runs (after TA body slams her onto the tile) to the closet, where Arias floats to the top shelf and grabs a gun on her first try, Arias points the gun at Travis Alexander to make him stop coming after her, Arias accidently shoots Travis Alexander in the head.

Shot in the head, Travis Alexander is not a viable threat to Arias. Arias could have fled to safety, and, called the police. With medical care, Travis Alexander may have survived being shot in the head by Arias.

Let's assume that Arias (in her fog) got it all wrong - except for the part that TA was coming after her with the intent to kill her. Arias picks up the knife and stabs Travis Alexander in his chest hitting his superior vena cava. At this time, Travis Alexander is not a threat to Arias' life. Arias could have fled, called 911 - and it is possible that with quick medical care Travis Alexander could have survived being stabbed through his superior vena cava. Had Arias sliced Travis Alexander throat causing trauma to his jugular vein - Arias could have fled to safety, called 911 - and there is a chance, again, with prompt medical care that Travis Alexander could have survived trauma to the jugular vein.

Arias did not stop until she had inflicted 29 severe stab wounds, sliced his throat, and shot him in the head. If Arias was "fighting for her life" - IMO, Arias would have wanted to get as far away from Travis Alexander when she could (which would have been after Arias inflicted significant trauma to Travis Alexander's body).

Arias crime against Travis Alexander is beyond brutal and sadistic. After being stabbed in the heart - without medical intervention - Travis Alexander would have died. He would not have been in any condition to get himself to the hospital - Arias did not stop her attack on Travis Alexander until she slaughtered him.

The (roughly) two minutes from Travis Alexander sitting on the bottom of his shower - to Travis Alexander bloody with his murderer standing over him must have been the longest most agonizing two minutes in Travis Alexander's life. We do not know when Travis Alexander succumbed to his murderer Arias' brutal and savage attack. We do know that Travis Alexander had to have been terrified, fearful, and panic stricken as he strained to get away from his tormentor - only to be overcome with the the feeling of excruciating distress as he realized that he was in fact going to die.

Arias, on the other hand, was confident, delighted and pleased. Arias offered to help police with their murder investigation. Arias has shown nothing but arrogance, audacity, pride, and shamelessness.

IMO, a reasonable person shown Travis Alexander's slaughtered body and told, "you did this," would react by having a heart attack. A reasonable person with humility, and, empathy could not live with themselves knowing that they slaughtered a person (especially if they could not remember it) as a normal person would say, "I do not want to cause that type of carnage again therefore just lock me up and throw away the key."

Arias' audaciousness and defiance gives me the impression that only she knows exactly how she murdered Travis Alexander. IMO, Arias enjoys herself. In prison, I think that she will enjoy her "fan club," twittering, making art work. This is what is so upsetting - I do not see Arias unhappy, sad, or even timid about spending life in prison. To me, Arias believes that she is a star - she has achieved her dreams (no one will ever have Travis Alexander, no one that loved Travis Alexander will be able to remember him without those awful wounds joyfully caused by Arias).

I hope that Arias is one day asked to answer the question, "You loved Travis Alexander very much and did want him to die." Of course, Arias will say "yes," and talk about her amazing love for Travis Alexander as long as she is allowed. After this question, I would like to see her asked, "if you were afraid for you life - and did not want to harm Travis Alexander - just get away from - why didn't you after you caused the first major trauma to Travis Alexander's body - you could have gotten away safely called 911 and Travis Alexander could be alive today."

I agree with everything. And because she will enjoy LWOP, selling her art for thousand of dollars and enjoying life behind bars, I want her to get the death penalty. I would learn to live with LWOP, but I want her sentenced to death. And again, I was against the DP before this case. :facepalm:

 

[katiecoolady]

I'm watching Nancy Grace Mysteries right now and some footage of the MANY long days of this demon on the stand and it's at the point where she's stopped looking at him , like the good petulant teenage Borderline she is. She looks down and away even though he's asking her questions about PHOTOS to her other side. I was there that day and kept wishing he'd point out (not that he needed to) how she was answering questions about photos without looking at them. I'm sure it wasn't lost on the jury but how classic for immature teenage or preteen behavior. Blech.

 

[bettybaby00]

Agreed. Her face is slack and her brows are drawn from the center. This is the 'pity pose' in trying to convey victim and innocence to the jury. Much different from her 'defiance' face.

The many faces of evil.

Lets not forget the "frail looking grandma card." Despicable :steamed:

 

[Nezumi]

I'm bringing in discussion from thread 162 into this thread (about how Arias murdered Travis Alexander). There were many posters in thread 162 with great postings, however, I do not know how to bring their postings to this thread.

First of all, let's assume that the truth is: Arias was on her knees outside of TA's shower taking pictures of him. Arias drops the camera, TA comes after her in a rage, Arias fears for her life, she runs (after TA body slams her onto the tile) to the closet, where Arias floats to the top shelf and grabs a gun on her first try, Arias points the gun at Travis Alexander to make him stop coming after her, Arias accidently shoots Travis Alexander in the head.

Shot in the head, Travis Alexander is not a viable threat to Arias. Arias could have fled to safety, and, called the police. With medical care, Travis Alexander may have survived being shot in the head by Arias.

Let's assume that Arias (in her fog) got it all wrong - except for the part that TA was coming after her with the intent to kill her. Arias picks up the knife and stabs Travis Alexander in his chest hitting his superior vena cava. At this time, Travis Alexander is not a threat to Arias' life. Arias could have fled, called 911 - and it is possible that with quick medical care Travis Alexander could have survived being stabbed through his superior vena cava. Had Arias sliced Travis Alexander throat causing trauma to his jugular vein - Arias could have fled to safety, called 911 - and there is a chance, again, with prompt medical care that Travis Alexander could have survived trauma to the jugular vein.

Arias did not stop until she had inflicted 29 severe stab wounds, sliced his throat, and shot him in the head. If Arias was "fighting for her life" - IMO, Arias would have wanted to get as far away from Travis Alexander when she could (which would have been after Arias inflicted significant trauma to Travis Alexander's body).

Arias crime against Travis Alexander is beyond brutal and sadistic. After being stabbed in the heart - without medical intervention - Travis Alexander would have died. He would not have been in any condition to get himself to the hospital - Arias did not stop her attack on Travis Alexander until she slaughtered him.

The (roughly) two minutes from Travis Alexander sitting on the bottom of his shower - to Travis Alexander bloody with his murderer standing over him must have been the longest most agonizing two minutes in Travis Alexander's life. We do not know when Travis Alexander succumbed to his murderer Arias' brutal and savage attack. We do know that Travis Alexander had to have been terrified, fearful, and panic stricken as he strained to get away from his tormentor - only to be overcome with the the feeling of excruciating distress as he realized that he was in fact going to die.

Arias, on the other hand, was confident, delighted and pleased. Arias offered to help police with their murder investigation. Arias has shown nothing but arrogance, audacity, pride, and shamelessness.

IMO, a reasonable person shown Travis Alexander's slaughtered body and told, "you did this," would react by having a heart attack. A reasonable person with humility, and, empathy could not live with themselves knowing that they slaughtered a person (especially if they could not remember it) as a normal person would say, "I do not want to cause that type of carnage again therefore just lock me up and throw away the key."

Arias' audaciousness and defiance gives me the impression that only she knows exactly how she murdered Travis Alexander. IMO, Arias enjoys herself. In prison, I think that she will enjoy her "fan club," twittering, making art work. This is what is so upsetting - I do not see Arias unhappy, sad, or even timid about spending life in prison. To me, Arias believes that she is a star - she has achieved her dreams (no one will ever have Travis Alexander, no one that loved Travis Alexander will be able to remember him without those awful wounds joyfully caused by Arias).

I hope that Arias is one day asked to answer the question, "You loved Travis Alexander very much and did want him to die." Of course, Arias will say "yes," and talk about her amazing love for Travis Alexander as long as she is allowed. After this question, I would like to see her asked, "if you were afraid for you life - and did not want to harm Travis Alexander - just get away from - why didn't you after you caused the first major trauma to Travis Alexander's body - you could have gotten away safely called 911 and Travis Alexander could be alive today."

Thurston, every word of this post was a thing of beauty. Thank you.