State rests rebuttal case - thread #170

[LinasK]

Is the real testimony going on or did they finish awhile ago. Also is this witness a prosecution or defense witness? It sounds like a prosecution witness so far.

Thanks

They finished about 3 hours ago- 8:30 PST. HLN is just that far behind. Hubby made me switch to American Idol. Jodi will be so jealous- she's not in the top 4!!!

 

[polleypockets]

i have to say, i was a little skeptical about juan calling dr hays as a sur-sur-rebuttal witness, but not only is she smart. educated and so well spoken, but just just has such a calm and soothing demeanor that imo it is helping the state to end up on a very good note

 

[MeeBee]

Maybe one should because I understood it to be very crucial to the defense, so much so that isn't Flores in trouble about what he testified to in the Death Penalty hearing?

The defense, in my opinion, is trying to convince the jury that she shot him but the reason she stabbed him is that he still presented a threat. I can't even understand that reasoning, but that's not the point.

If it didn't matter, then why wouldn't they relent that she stabbed him first, he kept coming, so she shot him?

I don't know. I don't see any scenario that works for the defense, but apparently, they are insistent upon this for some reason. What is the reason if it doesn't affect deliberation of guilt?

Because that is not Jodi's story.

Because in the grand scheme, the order of the weapons used does not effect whether or not it was premeditated. It doesn't even point to self defense. It is basically whose version do you wish to believe and does this mean Travis suffered any less?

 

[EquallyDivided]

I think the defense needs the gunshot first in order to prove self defense. Jodi's stabbing of Travis and nearly decapitating him doesn't qualify as self defense. Shooting him does. JMO



Is the real testimony going on or did they finish awhile ago. Also is this witness a prosecution or defense witness? It sounds like a prosecution witness so far.

Thanks

She is a prosecution surr-surr-rebuttal witness. They finished a few hours ago, but HLN has to "pay the bills" or something like that.

I only get upset because they try to say it's "LIVE". So fake.

 

[wasnt_me]

They had to go with that for two reasons.

1, that's what Jodi's story is.

2, if Jodi said the shot came last - she would have to explain how she got it from where she was going to say it was... after bloodying herself, without getting a drop of blood anywhere in the closet - or the bedroom (other than the hall entrance). She certainly couldn't have said the gun was in the bathroom - guns and moisture do not mix.

Your reasons one and two seem like the same reason.

If guns and moisture do not mix, then I think the idea that Travis would keep a gun in a closet in a spot whose door opens to the bathroom in no kind of gun case or anything is ludacris on its face. I wouldn't believe that he'd keep the closet door closed at all times, so the gun would not be protected from moisture. Just a side thought.

 

[Hope4More]

Trying to hold onto the big picture. Whatever the jury verdict, JA's worst nightmare has already come to pass. She murdered Travis to prevent him from revealing the truth about who she is. Now the entire world sees her for what she is..a lying, manipulative, cold, soul-less, angry, cruel, deluded narcissist who murdered a wonderful person in cold blood.

Travis was murdered because he was the antithesis of JA. He chose to believe and see the best in everyone he knew, and he believed that everyone is capable of genuine growth, both emotional and spiritual. He was generous because he knew what it is to be in need, funny because he knew firsthand what tragedy is but knew as well that laughter heals and is a gift to others.

Travis chose to be a motivational speaker because he wanted to uplift others, to teach them that their pasts need not determine their future, that it is possible to overcome anything and be whole and happy. I wish that he were alive to keep relaying that story of hope and faith, but I also think that his life now provides inspiration to thousands and thousands of people who would never have heard of him otherwise.

I also see so many people, here and elsewhere, who have brought more light into the world because of their loving, compassionate support of Travis' family.

JA robbed the world of a fine human being, of a man who would have been a wonderful father and so much more, but nothing she has done or could do diminishes the good that has emerged from the darkness she created, in spite of her.

 

[polleypockets]

IMO this was not one of the State's best days. I think the new expert made some points for the defense. And I think Dr Horn's testimony came off as a little less certain

what i don't get is how the defense team missed that error until dr geffner testified about it?? i saw that as soon as i read the report - along w/ every person on WS!!

eta: steely court has been over for almost three hours IRL

 

[DesSands]

The guilty vote would be the right vote in my opinion, but they can also take all of this to vote not guilty. One of the questions, possibly the one I responded to, sounded sympathetic to Jodi and that's alarming to me at this point. Phrases like "publicly accused" and having her privacy "invaded" being used when coming to their own diagnosis sounds dangerous for a guilty verdict.

One thing we know is it came from one juror. Hopefully that one will be an alternate. To be on the safe side. lease:

 

[EquallyDivided]

Because that is not Jodi's story.

Because in the grand scheme, the order of the weapons used does not effect whether or not it was premeditated. It doesn't even point to self defense. It is basically whose version do you wish to believe and does this mean Travis suffered any less?

ITA -

Good thing I'm not on that Jury - because I believe that Travis suffered so far in advance of his murder - that it shouldn't come down to what she did a week before she murdered him.

She made him suffer for a very long time. Years.

 

[wasnt_me]

Because that is not Jodi's story.

Because in the grand scheme, the order of the weapons used does not effect whether or not it was premeditated. It doesn't even point to self defense. It is basically whose version do you wish to believe and does this mean Travis suffered any less?

I'm not discussing the degree of Travis' suffering right now or what version of events to believe. All I'm discussing is that the order of the killing might be important once the jury receives its instructions on how to deliberate. That's all I've been trying to talk about on this line of posts. I feel my point's being misunderstood, or I'm incorrect about the jury's instructions affecting how they deliberate. I'll just wait for the instructions, if we get to see them. Thanks.

 

[minor4th]

what i don't get is how the defense team missed that error until dr geffner testified about it?? i saw that as soon as i read the report - along w/ every person on WS!!

eta: steely court has been over for almost three hours IRL

I don't think the defense missed it. I think the defense preferred to make their own interpretation and have an expert rebut Horn, as opposed to asking Horn about it and giving him an opportunity to explain and clarify.

 

[EquallyDivided]

Your reasons one and two seem like the same reason.

If guns and moisture do not mix, then I think the idea that Travis would keep a gun in a closet in a spot whose door opens to the bathroom in no kind of gun case or anything is ludacris on it's face. I wouldn't believe that he'd keep the closet door closed at all times, so the gun would not be protected from moisture. Just a side thought.

1 and 2 are pretty much the same ... which is crazy but makes total sense to me :banghead:

You are right about the gun in the closet, also. I wore my duty weapon throughout the day and never got in direct rain, but all of our guns became so rusted that on the days we had to do annual qualifications, we were all in the parking lot cleaning our guns like there was no tomorrow so there wouldn't be a misfire.

Much less, moisture on a daily basis from an adjacent shower.

 

[MeeBee]

I'm not discussing the degree of Travis' suffering right now or what version of events to believe. All I'm discussing is that the order of the killing might be important once the jury receives its instructions on how to deliberate. That's all I've been trying to talk about on this line of posts. I feel my point's being misunderstood, or I'm incorrect about the jury's instructions affecting how they deliberate. I'll just wait for the instructions, if we get to see them. Thanks.

I'm pretty sure I've understood you perfectly fine and I have explained my points clearly. The order is important to the DT because Jodi's story says one thing and the ME says another thing. They need the jury to believe Jodi 100%. The judge has already said the order doesn't matter because regardless of the order, Travis' death was still cruel and heinous. So the jury will probably not be told to specifically consider the order of the wounds in determining cruelty or what to convict Jodi of in their instructions. They will or won't do this at their discretion and decide for themselves if it's relevant in any OTHER way besides believing Jodi or the state. Legally, the order, specifically, is not relevant.

 

[wasnt_me]

1 and 2 are pretty much the same ... which is crazy but makes total sense to me :banghead:

You are right about the gun in the closet, also. I wore my duty weapon throughout the day and never got in direct rain, but all of our guns became so rusted that on the days we had to do annual qualifications, we were all in the parking lot cleaning our guns like there was no tomorrow so there wouldn't be a misfire.

Much less, moisture on a daily basis from an adjacent shower.

we "hope" moisture on a daily basis by the shower! :floorlaugh:

 

[amberjul]

I'm not discussing the degree of Travis' suffering right now or what version of events to believe. All I'm discussing is that the order of the killing might be important once the jury receives its instructions on how to deliberate. That's all I've been trying to talk about on this line of posts. I feel my point's being misunderstood, or I'm incorrect about the jury's instructions affecting how they deliberate. I'll just wait for the instructions, if we get to see them. Thanks.

Your question is really interesting. I don't know if JSS will instruct that if the jury sees it one way it equals this punishment and another way equals a different punishment, but have been trying to recall if I've seen that before... can't.

Nonetheless the jury instructions will be aired along with the closing arguments; it will be interesting to hear if the order of things (so to say) reflects jury deliberations. Definitely food for thought.

 

[Hope4More]

IMO this was not one of the State's best days. I think the new expert made some points for the defense. And I think Dr Horn's testimony came off as a little less certain

Agreed. I really wish the judge hadn't allowed the DT's witness to question the ME's report. I don't think he was qualified to do so, and believe it was unfair to the State to give him the opportunity to testify this late in the trial.

 

[verbonica]

1 and 2 are pretty much the same ... which is crazy but makes total sense to me :banghead:

You are right about the gun in the closet, also. I wore my duty weapon throughout the day and never got in direct rain, but all of our guns became so rusted that on the days we had to do annual qualifications, we were all in the parking lot cleaning our guns like there was no tomorrow so there wouldn't be a misfire.

Much less, moisture on a daily basis from an adjacent shower.

(Bolding mine)

Add to that, it is very, very dry in the Arizona desert. I doubt that moisture would have been a problem. Too bad, though, that JA didn't come up with that gun story earlier... they could have checked that high top shelf for a dust pattern around the gun! Dust is much more of a problem than moisture in the desert.

 

[K_Z]

IMO this was not one of the State's best days. I think the new expert made some points for the defense. And I think Dr Horn's testimony came off as a little less certain

I have to agree with you here. My impression is that Horn is so astonished at the lack of understanding of basic anatomy and physiology by the questioning defense atty that he is dismissive/ arrogant.

He could have done SOOOOO much better explaining the intracranial GSW to the jury. A mere "advanced practice nurse" could have done better explaining and teaching, IMO. Docs are not always good at that sort of thing-- some docs tend toward intellectual arrogance, and hate to be questioned.

Horn is unquestionably handsome, and quite intelligent, which is usually a good thing in a witness, but my dominant sense is he is annoyed that he has to keep explaining very simple concepts to the defense atty and jury. Don't get me wrong-- he is quite intelligent, and experienced. But he is annoyed and defensive. I get the sense he is in a hurry to get off the stand. And I worry a lot that if there is one (or more) boneheads on the jury, that he has not "connected" with them as to what he is SUPPOSED to explain.

I like him, because I understand practitioners like him. But I am not at all convinced that the jury "gets" his demeanor. I worry. I'm not at all sure he connected with the jury.

 

[Negative green]

I'm not sure how the bullet could have changed trajectory without hitting the other side of the skull, and I'm not sure how it could have hit the other side of the skull without piercing the membrane and going through the brain.

It was a typo.

I would like to see the prosecutor use a three dimensional model to show where the gunshot entered the brain and where the bullet lodged in the OPPOSITE side of the head.... How could it not pass through the brain? I think unfortunately too much emphasis and time was placed on this, when whether first or last there is ample evidence to support premeditation, extreme cruelty and murder by JAA.

 

[wasnt_me]

I'm pretty sure I've understood you perfectly fine and I have explained my points clearly. The order is important to the DT because Jodi's story says one thing and the ME says another thing. They need the jury to believe Jodi 100%. The judge has already said the order doesn't matter because regardless of the order, Travis' death was still cruel and heinous. So the jury will probably not be told to specifically consider the order of the wounds in determining cruelty or what to convict Jodi of in their instructions. They will or won't do this at their discretion and decide for themselves if it's relevant in any OTHER way besides believing Jodi or the state. Legally, the order, specifically, is not relevant.

Thanks. To be clear, I said I feel as if I'm being misunderstood. I didn't say you were misunderstanding me. I was careful not to accuse you of misunderstanding me. Using the word "you" sometimes makes a discussion too personal, and I try to avoid that. I also offered that I could have the wrong understanding of the jury instructions. I said I'd wait to see the jury instructions. Thanks.