Steve Thomas's Theory/Murder Timeline

[steff13]

I did some searching last night and found something that could explain the vaginal trauma on JB.

Vaginal abrasions may also occur in young girls, particularly if children have developed a yeast infection or have suffered a recent injury to the sensitive vaginal lining. Fissures may be more difficult to diagnose on a child depending upon location and size of the tear, as well as the child’s communication abilities. Women with vaginal fissures often described tears as feeling like a paper cut. In children, such a description may be felt, but not so easily seen by a caretaker or communicated by the child. It is not uncommon for a young girl who complains of stinging or burning, especially during bath time or bathroom activities, to be, in fact, suffering from vaginal fissures.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-vaginal-fissures.htm

Chronic Yeast infections..

Why do Young Children get Yeast Infections?

The cause of yeast infections in everyone is too much or too little moisture in the genitalia. In the case of women, wearing or using certain products can be the cause. Many young children love taking long, bubble baths with all the bath toys and fun. Bubble baths can actually heighten the moisture in the genitals and cause the yeast to grow to the point where a yeast infection appears. This will not happen in most children but as different bodies react to different things, it can occur.

Another cause of yeast infections in children can be when they are allowed to wear their wet bathing suits for a long time after they are no longer playing in the water. Bathing suits, like towels, sustain water and are close to the genitals. Try to ensure that children are put into dry clothes when they have finished playing in the water. Another aid to prevention is to use unscented and uncolored toilet paper. This is a known cause of yeast infections in females and could most likely have the same effect on a young girl.

http://www.amoils.com/treatment/yeast-infection/yeast-infection-children.html



I am not posting this to argue points, Just to see the other side. As long as there is a possible real explanation for the irritation or tears in Jon Benet, I have to err on that side. To me Patsy's explanation completely fits with the injuries, As far as the hymen is concerned do we even know what kind she was born with? Could it have been the result of creams being applied, or could she have been born with less of one or none?

I am willing to go with you and listen but I need to show you where I am coming from too.

Why is abuse not a "real" explanation? Why not err on the side of medical experts who read and interpeted the autoposy results, rather than a web search?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Why is abuse not a "real" explanation? Why not err on the side of medical experts who read and interpeted the autoposy results, rather than a web search?

Im not saying it is not. I am just saying it is another possible explanation. And one that fits Patsy insistent that she had infections and could have caused the fissures and small cuts and bleeding inside.

 

[steff13]

Im not saying it is not. I am just saying it is another possible explanation. And one that fits Patsy insistent that she had infections and could have caused the fissures and small cuts and bleeding inside.

Patsy insisted that she had persistent infections, yet she never sought medical treatment beyond a doctor who was not doing a thing to help. She took JonBenet to the doctor about 30 times in the year (2 years?) before she died, yet she never took her to any sort of specialist.

I don't know if you have children, but if you had a child with a medical issue that was recurring at that level, would you seek a second opinon? I would, and have, with my daughter's recurring ear infections.

I think we need to ask ourselves why Patsy, an intelligent woman, did not do this? Is it because she knew something else was going on with JonBenet besides a simple yeast infection? Was she afraid that a doctor who wasn't a family friend would look more closely and see that something untoward was happening? The doctor she went to likely gave her medication to treat the symptoms, but never questioned the root cause of the problem.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Patsy insisted that she had persistent infections, yet she never sought medical treatment beyond a doctor who was not doing a thing to help. She took JonBenet to the doctor about 30 times in the year (2 years?) before she died, yet she never took her to any sort of specialist.

I don't know if you have children, but if you had a child with a medical issue that was recurring at that level, would you seek a second opinon? I would, and have, with my daughter's recurring ear infections.

I think we need to ask ourselves why Patsy, an intelligent woman, did not do this? Is it because she knew something else was going on with JonBenet besides a simple yeast infection? Was she afraid that a doctor who wasn't a family friend would look more closely and see that something untoward was happening? The doctor she went to likely gave her medication to treat the symptoms, but never questioned the root cause of the problem.

I would bet because she trusted her child's doctor and followed his advice. I don't see this as any big issue. I am older with children and so I may get that a little more.

This is a new age of specialist for everything. I most likely would have used yeast meds at home and not taken my child to the GYN to have afull exam at 4,5, or 6. I would have thought that traumatic.

She was an older mom probably more apt to believe her drs words and decisions than now a days.
I had friends who had chronic yeast infections as kids. I remember them having to change after swimming and their mothers not wanting to let them swim too long, But they are kids what are you going to do?

I am not sure and saying this is the answer 100%. I am just saying the possibility for me is that this is a good reason for the injuries based on what PR is claiming. It fits for me there.

 

[otg]

Totally agree with 95% of your post.

I have to diverge opinions on the visibility of the hymen, which from everything I've read and seen, is generally located just inside the labia at the entrance to the vagina.

As seen at the following link, these shots are of the hymen made visible by the girl lying suppine in a frog leg position. No speculum needed.

warning graphic medical photo a link

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/915841-clinical#a0217

I'm glad you posted this, Magdalyn. I started to post something about the misconception, but thought it would be not quite right for me (not a female, and not a medical person) to try and point it out. If there is any doubt about the location of, or even the different types of hymens, a simple search on Google Images will answer any questions. It does not require a speculum to be seen. Looking at it and the entire genital/anal area should be part of any pediatrician's examination if any type of abuse/molestation is suspected. And recurring vaginal irritations/infections are reason enough to suspect.

But as DeeDee points out [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8825739&postcount=92"]here[/ame], it is "highly suspicious" (understatement) that Dr. Beuf would threaten to destroy records rather than turn them over to investigators. What?!!

And also (as she mentioned) that he would unequivocally state that she had not been sexually abused after having also stated he had never examined her genitalia -- and this after repeated vaginal irritations/infections? Hello?

This jerk should be investigated! (But that won't happen, because he practices in Boulder.)

 

[Nom de plume]

I would bet because she trusted her child's doctor and followed his advice. I don't see this as any big issue. I am older with children and so I may get that a little more.

This is a new age of specialist for everything. I most likely would have used yeast meds at home and not taken my child to the GYN to have afull exam at 4,5, or 6. I would have thought that traumatic.

She was an older mom probably more apt to believe her drs words and decisions than now a days.
I had friends who had chronic yeast infections as kids. I remember them having to change after swimming and their mothers not wanting to let them swim too long, But they are kids what are you going to do?

I am not sure and saying this is the answer 100%. I am just saying the possibility for me is that this is a good reason for the injuries based on what PR is claiming. It fits for me there.

Let me get this straight. Your child has enough infections to warrant 33 doctor visits in 36 months, yet you are going to follow that doctors advice and not seek a specialist to determine why this keeps happening over and over? Or worse yet, not even take the child to a doctor? Ok....:waitasec:

No doubt that a genital examination would be traumatic for a child that age. What's worse, repeated infections and the pain that they caused, or a couple of uncomfortable minutes in a Dr.'s office? As DD has said, she would have been sedated anyway.

If Dr. B told her that bubble baths were causing these repeated infections, then why in the world would PR continue to allow JB to take bubble baths???? :banghead: The baths might have caused one or two, but 33? HELLO??

On top of all that, PR SHOULD have been aware that that many infections could lead to tubal infections, scarring, and eventually infertility.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Let me get this straight. Your child has enough infections to warrant 33 doctor visits in 36 months, yet you are going to follow that doctors advice and not seek a specialist to determine why this keeps happening over and over? Or worse yet, not even take the child to a doctor? Ok....:waitasec:

No doubt that a genital examination would be traumatic for a child that age. What's worse, repeated infections and the pain that they caused, or a couple of uncomfortable minutes in a Dr.'s office? As DD has said, she would have been sedated anyway.

If Dr. B told her that bubble baths were causing these repeated infections, then why in the world would PR continue to allow JB to take bubble baths???? :banghead: The baths might have caused one or two, but 33? HELLO??

On top of all that, PR SHOULD have been aware that that many infections could lead to tubal infections, scarring, and eventually infertility.

I am not saying I agree with it. Just that it could be a reason for the fissures and not sexual abuse. I am not saying I agree with Patsy's parenting decisions.

Im looking at one point at a time, Not a whole compilation of things at once.


I need to go one step at a time and ponder that. I absolutely know that I am no where near as caught up on this case as some of you.

Take it easy on me.. , Im trying to accept the new things while weighing my own thoughts and feelings.

 

[Nom de plume]

I would bet because she trusted her child's doctor and followed his advice. I don't see this as any big issue. I am older with children and so I may get that a little more.

This is a new age of specialist for everything. I most likely would have used yeast meds at home and not taken my child to the GYN to have afull exam at 4,5, or 6. I would have thought that traumatic.

She was an older mom probably more apt to believe her drs words and decisions than now a days.
I had friends who had chronic yeast infections as kids. I remember them having to change after swimming and their mothers not wanting to let them swim too long, But they are kids what are you going to do?

I am not sure and saying this is the answer 100%. I am just saying the possibility for me is that this is a good reason for the injuries based on what PR is claiming. It fits for me there.

Let me get this straight. Your child has enough infections to warrant 33 doctor visits in 36 months, yet you are going to follow that doctors advice and not seek a specialist to determine why this keeps happening over and over? Or worse yet, not even take the child to a doctor? Ok....:waitasec:

No doubt that a genital examination would be traumatic for a child that age. What's worse, repeated infections and the pain that they caused, or a couple of uncomfortable minutes in a Dr.'s office? As DD has said, she would have been sedated anyway.

If Dr. B told her that bubble baths were causing these repeated infections, then why in the world would PR continue to allow JB to take bubble baths???? :banghead: The baths might have caused one or two, but 33? HELLO??

On top of all that, PR SHOULD have been aware that that many infections could lead to tubal infections, scarring, and eventually infertility. IMO PR's way of handling, or more like NOT handling this issue, is child abuse in itself!

 

[Magdalyn]

Let me get this straight. Your child has enough infections to warrant 33 doctor visits in 36 months, yet you are going to follow that doctors advice and not seek a specialist to determine why this keeps happening over and over? Or worse yet, not even take the child to a doctor? Ok....:waitasec:

No doubt that a genital examination would be traumatic for a child that age. What's worse, repeated infections and the pain that they caused, or a couple of uncomfortable minutes in a Dr.'s office? As DD has said, she would have been sedated anyway.

If Dr. B told her that bubble baths were causing these repeated infections, then why in the world would PR continue to allow JB to take bubble baths???? :banghead: The baths might have caused one or two, but 33? HELLO??

On top of all that, PR SHOULD have been aware that that many infections could lead to tubal infections, scarring, and eventually infertility.

I'd like to add, IMO, an exam of the external genitals (vulva/labia/hymen) is hardly traumatic as long as the doctor and mom are matter of fact, no big deal about it, just checking everything's okay.

No one is wondering why she didn't take her to an OB/Gyn. Most wonder why her pediatrician didn't even give a passing examination of her vulva and labia, not once, with her medical history. And I wondered, why not refer to a urologist?

Jonbenet gets to see a plastic surgeon (face), but not a urologist (kidneys/bladder)?

Our pediatricians (we see a group of male and female doctors) have all examined my female child's privates with all annual physicals and especially the one time Desitin wasn't doing the trick. They don't insert a speculum, they don't put the girl in stirrups and, in many instances, they didn't even have to have her completely remove her panties.

And if Jonbenet was feeling shy, Patsy could have taken her to a female instead. Patsy had no problem taking Jonbenet to a plastic surgeon regarding a small scar. Patsy flew across the country repeatedly for cancer clinical trials. Why was she so comparatively unconcerned with chronic vaginal/urinary issues that could have long term damaging results?

ETA: Lol, I'm actually agreeing with the gist of your post, Nom de plume, not arguing against it!

 

[redheadedgal]

Please accept my apologies redheadedgal for the ambiguous post. It wasn't directed at you. :rose::rose::rose::hug::hug:

My comment was additional information that refutes Lin Wood's 300-pound man comment, which I believe he used to try and side-track anyone from thinking Patsy was capable of inflicting JonBenet's head injury.

just seeing this now... no worries! thanks

( btw, ITA with your comments about LW and his "assertion" )

 

[Nom de plume]

I'd like to add, IMO, an exam of the external genitals (vulva/labia/hymen) is hardly traumatic as long as the doctor and mom are matter of fact, no big deal about it, just checking everything's okay.

No one is wondering why she didn't take her to an OB/Gyn. Most wonder why her pediatrician didn't even give a passing examination of her vulva and labia, not once, with her medical history. And I wondered, why not refer to a urologist?

Jonbenet gets to see a plastic surgeon (face), but not a urologist (kidneys/bladder)?

Our pediatricians (we see a group of male and female doctors) have all examined my female child's privates with all annual physicals and especially the one time Desitin wasn't doing the trick. They don't insert a speculum, they don't put the girl in stirrups and, in many instances, they didn't even have to have her completely remove her panties.

And if Jonbenet was feeling shy, Patsy could have taken her to a female instead. Patsy had no problem taking Jonbenet to a plastic surgeon regarding a small scar. Patsy flew across the country repeatedly for cancer clinical trials. Why was she so comparatively unconcerned with chronic vaginal/urinary issues that could have long term damaging results?

ETA: Lol, I'm actually agreeing with the gist of your post, Nom de plume, not arguing against it!

BBM All excellent points! I've always wondered why she didn't take her to an OB/BYN. The only reason I can come up with is because she was either a moron or she didn't want JB examined too thoroughly. PR was a lot more concerned with JB's looks than she was with her health.

Something just occured to me. Could the bed wetting be at least partially caused by UTIs? Ladies we all know how bad it hurts to go with a UTI, and if you don't then consider yourself EXTREMELY lucky. Could JB have been holding it because she dreaded the pain, therefore causing accidents in the night?

We also know that a little hanky panky without a trip to tinkle after can cause a UTI. I suspect that was how JB was getting them. (Sorry if that's too graphic for some...I tried :blushing

 

[txsvicki]

Children can't have hanky panky. The vagina would be damaged because it is not pliable at that age or meant to have things inserted.

 

[Magdalyn]

BBM All excellent points! I've always wondered why she didn't take her to an OB/BYN. The only reason I can come up with is because she was either a moron or she didn't want JB examined too thoroughly. PR was a lot more concerned with JB's looks than she was with her health.

Something just occured to me. Could the bed wetting be at least partially caused by UTIs? Ladies we all know how bad it hurts to go with a UTI, and if you don't then consider yourself EXTREMELY lucky. Could JB have been holding it because she dreaded the pain, therefore causing accidents in the night?

We also know that a little hanky panky without a trip to tinkle after can cause a UTI. I suspect that was how JB was getting them. (Sorry if that's too graphic for some...I tried :blushing

:blushing: I should correct myself to say that on my post, I meant to say "No one here on this board has suggested she be seen by an OB/Gyn. I personally wonder why there was no referral to a urologist."

That being said, I agree that an OB/Gyn might be an option for Patsy/Jonbenet if she felt the ped wasn't properly concerned with the multiple seemingly female related issues.

As far as this whole case goes, when John and Patsy (and by extention the Dream Team) didn't get the answer they liked, they searched until they found the answer they wanted to hear.

When it came to Patsy's health, they sought out the best of the best, shunning local treatment and having Patsy fly cross country multiple times for her treatment. Searched, found the best of the best, utilized it.

Yet when it came to JBR's urogenital health, no extra questions asked/no second opinion needed. Keep doing the same thing, appointment/no urogenital exam/prescription/repeat. :waitasec:

 

[Nom de plume]

Children can't have hanky panky. The vagina would be damaged because it is not pliable at that age or meant to have things inserted.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my meaning. I meant that I thought someone had been molesting her and that was causing the UTIs. My comment had nothing at all to do with the damage to the vagina.

 

[deca]

It is also my understanding that persistent infections both vaginal and UTI in children are often caused by molestation. Any doctor who has a patient with this chronic condition would want to examine the genitals (externally) to see if there were any signs of this occurring to JB. If they had any doubts, they would refer them to a colleague to get their opinion.

I think it is an obvious conclusion that he and Patsy discussed the situation and decided to keep it under wraps- especially his statement that he would destroy the records before showing them to the police. Who would say that unless they had something to hide?

 

[midwest mama]

YES, the same doctor-friend!

This is the information Beuf gave to Diane Sawyer in an interview:

"SAWYER: And there is someone else who was there that night who says Patsy Ramsey had collapsed.

BEUF: She was just lying on the floor.

SAWYER: His name is Dr Francesco Beuf. He was JonBenet's pediatrician. He talked to me by phone about whether Mrs Ramsey's grief was real.

BEUF: Oh, for God's sake, she was as devastated as anyone could be by a terrible loss like that. They called me to provide some tranquilizers for her. She was absolutely shattered by this.

SAWYER: And Mr Ramsey?

BEUF: He looked absolutely devastated. To me, they were the most appropriate reactions in the world. God knows, I wouldn't know how I'd react if one of my children had been murdered, particularly in such horrible circumstances. He paced and paced and paced. He and I went out for a walk for awhile that night. It's the wreckage of two human beings.

SAWYER: Even so, we were told the Ramseys volunteered to give hair, fingerprint, blood samples. And John Ramsey offered to be formally interviewed by the police if he could do it in the house near his family. Bynum says it didn't happen only because police wanted both parents, and Dr Beuf said Patsy Ramsey wasn't able to talk.

BEUF: I had advised that it was not good to have Patsy there because she was under heavy sedation and would not have been able to function. And then the story came out that the Ramseys had refused to be interviewed by the police. That is just flat wrong.I sat there."

Now wait a minute, who is "They". It looks to me like Patsy did not call Dr. Beuf. And then he and John went out for a walk that night - which I had heard about, but I guess seeing it again now, after I am more convinced than ever before JDI, I think they might have had quite a discussion about JB's medical history.

And, JR set a condition of being within earshot of his family? In just the first few hours after his daughter was killed? Why did he not say, "hell yes, I'll talk to you wherever, whenever and with or without whomever you chose to have there. I want that SOB caught!"

In the meantime, once "they" scraped Patsy up off the floor, "they" had Patsy so konked out she couldn't even converse. :waitasec:

 

[deca]

BEUF: I had advised that it was not good to have Patsy there because she was under heavy sedation and would not have been able to function.

Ah, good ol' Beuf. How convenient. We should all have a doctor so dedicated to our mental health and well being! I would use the vomit smiley here but I can't get it to work.

BEUF: ...He and I went out for a walk for awhile that night.

Great! What a perfect time for us to perfect our story. I will tell you that I will be happy to cover up my criminal professional negligence, and you can tell me that you will be happy to cover up the fact that you murdered/abused/covered up murder of your daughter! It's a win-win. Maybe someday we can chuckle about this on the golf course.:furious:

 

[IzzyBlanche]

This may be a bit off topic here but I wasn't sure where else to post it and I didn't want to start a new thread.

This week I had a conversation about this case with a psychologist who has a great deal of experience treating children who have been abused, sexually and otherwise. He said that bedwetting and nighttime soiling in a child JBR's age aren't necessarily indicators of sexual abuse, but they are without a doubt indicative of a child in serious trouble, whether from external factors such as extreme stress, or organic physical or mental issues.

I did not discuss any of JBR's injuries with him, only the bedwetting and soiling.

Still, his emphatic diagnosis was a child in serious trouble one way or another.

 

[Mitsana]

This week I had a conversation about this case with a psychologist who has a great deal of experience treating children who have been abused, sexually and otherwise. He said that bedwetting and nighttime soiling in a child JBR's age aren't necessarily indicators of sexual abuse, but they are without a doubt indicative of a child in serious trouble, whether from external factors such as extreme stress, or organic physical or mental issues.

I'm new to this site and this case, so please forgive me in advance if I accidentally mess stuff up about posting.

Apropos of possible non-sexual abuse, I just randomly watched a youtube video of JBR (was looking for a different vid) and noticed a large bruise on her inner right arm. There's some discussion of it in the comments, but it's pretty clear to me that it's a bruise (from 20 seconds till the end). So, there may have been some form of physical abuse (or it may just be the usual sort of childhood bump; kids do get bruises from time to time). Here's the video: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yb6ydbo0cg"]♥☆JonBenet Singing God Bless America☆♥ - YouTube[/ame]

That said, even if the chronic vaginal issues could be explained by non-abuse scenarios, we know from the autopsy that birefringent material was deposited inside, which cannot be explained baths or yeast infections. Was the fatal night the first instance of abuse? Had JBR recently introduced the birefringent material herself? While these are possibilities, then we would need separate explanations for the indications of chronic vaginal damage and JBR's bedwetting behavior consistent with abuse along with the genital abuse which did occur on the fatal night.

The events of the fatal night are not necessarily directly related to the chronic sexual abuse assuming that it did occur. I've seen a theory on this site (sorry, don't remember who posited it) that the abuser staged extreme abuse that night, intended to cover chronic abuse, once it became clear that JBR was fatally wounded, not necessarily by the abuser. Another variant, suggested in this very thread by Magdalyn is that the genital abuse may not have been truly sexual, but more of a purging/punishment for soiling. So, even if chronic genital abuse did occur, that still leaves open different possibilities on the fatal night.

It's all moo.

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

I've seen a theory on this site (sorry, don't remember who posited it) that the abuser staged extreme abuse that night, intended to cover chronic abuse, once it became clear that JBR was fatally wounded, not necessarily by the abuser.

I am also curious about the purported staging and to what degree it may be considered an acute observation.

The ransom note does warn that the culprits are "familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics."

Is it possible that one of the culprits either had a detective for a father or uncle (or aunt), or was a Criminal Justice major at UC?

Why would the culprits think to stage a sexual assault unless they were deliberately trying to misdirect LE as to their real motive for being in the Ramsey home that evening?