Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder? #2

[Karinna]

BBM - pure speculation - but BoD did not set up the photo shoot for the van.

But he is BT's son who had a thing for TH that his own family teased him about.

 

[Karinna]

Absurd. You link a bunch of not very persuasive alleged facts together with a ton of speculation and that's enough to deprive someone of their freedom. Meanwhile you demand an actual video of the actual crime to counter the speculation.

Not impressed with the blatant double standards.

Just MOO

I agree, feel like i am in the twilight zone, LOL.

 

[Sustained]

Absurd. You link a bunch of not very persuasive alleged facts together with a ton of speculation and that's enough to deprive someone of their freedom. Meanwhile you demand an actual video of the actual crime to counter the speculation.

Not impressed with the blatant double standards.

Just MOO

Just as I'm not impressed in the least by Zellner's experts and theories. Absurd ...

 

[Sustained]

But he is BT's son who had a thing for TH that his own family teased him about.

I haven't seen evidence of that - I have heard BoD teased SA about TH being his GF.

 

[Sustained]

I agree, feel like i am in the twilight zone, LOL.

Whatever ... truthers always feel it's my way or the highway. Go read TickTockManitowoc on Reddit. Anti-Avery opinions are not allowed.

No reason to discuss anymore as none of us are changing our opinions.

And Zellner's theories are something right out of the Twilight Zone. She just needs Rod Serling as her narrator.

 

[Karinna]

I haven't seen evidence of that - I have heard BoD teased SA about TH being his GF.

BBM, The link to that evidence was posted previously, either on this thread or Brendan's thread.

 

[Karinna]

Just as I'm not impressed in the least by Zellner's experts and theories. Absurd ...

Well KZ is the only person right now that is handling this case and she is not going to quit. She is the current PC Attorney and nothing will change that. Her experts are some of the best in the world and that won't change either.

 

[Sustained]

Well KZ is the only person right now that is handling this case and she is not going to quit. She is the current PC Attorney and nothing will change that. Her experts are some of the best in the world and that won't change either.

She will have to quit eventually if she keeps losing appeals, similar to Nirider with BD.

 

[Karinna]

She will have to quit eventually if she keeps losing appeals, similar to Nirider with BD.

As i have posted a link to previously, BD still has options.
And could you please point out at least one case KZ has lost yet? I don't know of any?

 

[Sustained]

As i have posted a link to previously, BD still has options.
And could you please point out at least one case KZ has lost yet? I don't know of any?

Feel free to fact check this ... Zellner has had her own practice since 1990, so I imagine she's lost a few along the way. And Melissa Calusinki is still in jail.

The Larry Eyler case was a mess. She tried to get him life instead of the death penalty based on a deal to confess to 20 murders. No dice. With her advice, he ended up confessing to another murder in Ohio. None of the appeals worked. She pushed for investigation of Eyler's alleged partner, and he was acquitted. To be fair to Zellner, it was an impossible case.

Zellner walked away from the Donald Watkins case and it seems she is unwilling to talk about it.

Zellner has lost criminal defense cases, such as those of Dianne Thames, Wynne Superson, and the 14-year-old son of Richard Bourbeau. I'm sure there are others. The defense attorney that never loses is a myth, especially if they take the difficult cases.

BD has very few options unless Zellner can prove and get someone else convicted for TH's murder.

 

[proudfootz]

I agree, feel like i am in the twilight zone, LOL.

The thing some people don't seem to understand is that to deprive a person of their freedom requires evidence beyond a reasonable doubt (like a video of the crime, for example).

Instead they reverse the burden of proof and swallow a handful of unrelated factoids swimming in a sea of maybes, could bes, possibles, can't prove it didn'ts, might haves, and other rampant speculation as rock solid while setting an incredibly higher standard for the defense.

It's like trying to understand someone from Bizarro World.

 

[Sustained]

The thing some people don't seem to understand is that to deprive a person of their freedom requires evidence beyond a reasonable doubt (like a video of the crime, for example).

Instead they reverse the burden of proof and swallow a handful of unrelated factoids swimming in a sea of maybes, could bes, possibles, can't prove it didn'ts, might haves, and other rampant speculation as rock solid while setting an incredibly higher standard for the defense.

It's like trying to understand someone from Bizarro World.

Since there are a substantial amount of people that believe SA & BD are right where they belong, I'll assume you are referring to anyone who doesn't think quite like you do.

The thing you don't seem to understand is that many murders are prosecuted with circumstantial evidence and in many cases, no body. The only rampant speculation now is coming from the Zellner and truther camps where anyone including the bus driver could've murdered TH. There was ample solid evidence to convict SA and a series of confessions from BD who even went as far as to lie on the stand and say he read "Kiss the Girls" and that's how he made up the details. Where I come from, that's called a Hail Mary pass when you know your *advertiser censored* is going to jail for a long time. Never once did he mention "Kiss the Girls" in his confession or discussions with his mother.

Even if Steven Avery came out today and said he and Brendan raped and slaughtered TH, the truthers wouldn't believe it. Kinda like those who don't think we went to the moon.

Once again, you will be waiting a long, long time for anything to happen in this case.

 

[Karinna]

Feel free to fact check this ... Zellner has had her own practice since 1990, so I imagine she's lost a few along the way. And Melissa Calusinki is still in jail.

The Larry Eyler case was a mess. She tried to get him life instead of the death penalty based on a deal to confess to 20 murders. No dice. With her advice, he ended up confessing to another murder in Ohio. None of the appeals worked. She pushed for investigation of Eyler's alleged partner, and he was acquitted. To be fair to Zellner, it was an impossible case.

Zellner walked away from the Donald Watkins case and it seems she is unwilling to talk about it.

Zellner has lost criminal defense cases, such as those of Dianne Thames, Wynne Superson, and the 14-year-old son of Richard Bourbeau. I'm sure there are others. The defense attorney that never loses is a myth, especially if they take the difficult cases.

BD has very few options unless Zellner can prove and get someone else convicted for TH's murder.

Was it KZ losing cases or walking away from them if she perceives the person is not being truthful?
She won't take such a case on in that instance. Why would she?

 

[Sustained]

Was it KZ losing cases or walking away from them if she perceives the person is not being truthful?
She won't take such a case on in that instance. Why would she?

I don't know the specifics of each case. But I think Avery has her fooled and why wouldn't he take her services if he had nothing to lose ? Zellner has zero way of knowing if Avery actually committed the crime other than his word and a guess.

 

[Karinna]

KZ also does a lot of pro bono work.
(quote)
"I've turned down book deals, I've turned down TV - Dick Wolf (the creator of Law & Order) approached me about doing a series in the mid-90s. If I were interested in all of that, I wouldn't be sitting here doing these cases pro bono."

She funds her work on wrongful convictions through other work at her practice and has spent up to $1m of her own money to win a case, as she did to free Ryan Ferguson in 2013. He had spent nearly 10 years in prison for the murder of a sports editor, based on two false testimonies.
'If you're rich, you can get away with murder' - Making a Murderer lawyer Kathleen Zellner

 

[Sustained]

KZ also does a lot of pro bono work.
(quote)
"I've turned down book deals, I've turned down TV - Dick Wolf (the creator of Law & Order) approached me about doing a series in the mid-90s. If I were interested in all of that, I wouldn't be sitting here doing these cases pro bono."

She funds her work on wrongful convictions through other work at her practice and has spent up to $1m of her own money to win a case, as she did to free Ryan Ferguson in 2013. He had spent nearly 10 years in prison for the murder of a sports editor, based on two false testimonies.
'If you're rich, you can get away with murder' - Making a Murderer lawyer Kathleen Zellner

I have several times that Zellner has done a lot of good work for some innocent people. Did Zellner not get her $ back from Ferguson's civil suit ?

And speaking of Ferguson, the prosecution had nothing x/c for a nutjob's dream and eyewitness testimony from a janitor at the newspaper. I found it remarkable that he was even convicted in the 1st place and I firmly believe that Ferguson was innocent from the get-go.

You already know that I feel Zellner is wrong about Avery but the circumstances and evidence are much different here than with Ferguson.

And as I've said before, it's a win-win situation for her. If Avery gets out or even gets another trial, she's a hero to a lot of people. If he doesn't, she & others can say the judicial system is either corrupt or blind to all of her new "evidence".

 

[missy1974]

BBM - all of the truthers feel the same way so you're in good company.

Legitimate business is not coming out in a towel to meet the Auto Trade chick. And if he had done legitimate business, why dial *67 to hide your identity ? Why leave Barb's phone # if you're the one that will be meeting TH ? As far as the DNA and cleanup, SA had at least 3 days before TH was reported missing. As far as I know, the key was found on the floor after the bookcase was shook. Who else had a big cut on their finger at the time of the crime ? And of TH was only there for 5 minutes, why didn't SA go back to work until 5pm ?

Zellner's tests prove nothing other than she knows how to procure experts that can do tests in a controlled environment 12+ years after the crime was committed.

But keep truthing ... nothing like a good conspiracy theory even though half of the LE enforcement personnel, prosecutors, and lab folks in Wisconsin would risk their jobs/careers/reputations to participate.

And go ahead and keep believing that Brendan Dassey made up everything lol ..

Common sense is the least common of all senses.

Him coming out in a towel - this could be seen as creepy, but it doesn't sound like TH was too concerned. Here is the testimony from Dawn, which was outside of the jury and was not allowed into the trial: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Trial-Transcript-Day-2-2007Feb13.pdf#page=59

*67 - Avery called AutoTrader directly, the business, without *67, twice I believe that morning. He used it to call TH's cell phone, and IMO it can easily be explained if he was unsure if it was her number (the number was written on a piece of paper with no name with it), if he didn't want her to have his cell number, or just wanted privacy. IIRC we had this discussion already and because you have never used it or never felt the need to use it, IMO you don't understand why someone else would. *67 has been around for years, it's there for a purpose, whether you use it or not, doesn't mean other's don't.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-74-Toll-Free-Records.pdf
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...rial-Exhibit-359-Avery-Call-Log-2005Oct31.pdf

Leaving Barb's number - It was her van. SA is not the only one that did this that day and I bet it happened all the time. Her first appointment that day was with Craig Sippel. TH met with Steven Schmitz though, at his house where the vehicle was. Was Schmitz trying to lure Teresa? http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=6 I recall a discussion on here somewhere that someone in Wisconsin could only sell so many vehicles before being considered a business, this would be a good reason to make sure it was in Barb's name since it was her vehicle and he wasn't actually making money off of it... according to Jodi, SA would buy cheap and sell to make extra money, this can be found here: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=162

SA had 3 days to clean up - How would SA know he had 3 days? How would he know that her parents wouldn't notice her missing or her friggen room mate didn't notice her missing? (this still bothers me that it took SB 3 days to notice!!!)

Bookcase being shook - Before it was shook: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/exhibit-208.jpg After it was shook: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/exhibit-210.jpg How does that receipt happen to stay in the exact same position after it was handled so roughly by Colborn? There are other photo's out there and I have seen where people have even been able to match up the coins in the same spots. How is that even logical?

Who else had a cut on their finger at the time - who knows, did LE check out anyone else other than the Avery family?

Why didn't Avery go back to work? - again, who knows. But again, according to Jodi, he only worked a couple of hours a day. That is in one of her interviews, here: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=163

The answers to a lot of these questions can be found in the documents, I know there are a lot of them and it's a lot of information, but it's there. Things like him calling to sell Barb's van is actually not as nefarious as Kratz made it sound when you understand that others did it too, or knowing that everyone in the family was aware the van was being sold, it's not like it was a secret. Some thought it was junk, but this is what SA did... he sold vehicles, bought vehicles. IIRC the intention was to buy the boys, or Blaine, a better vehicle to drive, but that's just silly right? cuz what 16 or 17 yr old boy doesn't love a good old mini van to drive!

 

[Sustained]

Him coming out in a towel - this could be seen as creepy, but it doesn't sound like TH was too concerned. Here is the testimony from Dawn, which was outside of the jury and was not allowed into the trial: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Trial-Transcript-Day-2-2007Feb13.pdf#page=59

Could be much ado about nothing, but we really don't know how TH felt about it. Didn't Avery say to send the girl that had been out to the ASY before ? Why would he do that ?



*67 - Avery called AutoTrader directly, the business, without *67, twice I believe that morning. He used it to call TH's cell phone, and IMO it can easily be explained if he was unsure if it was her number (the number was written on a piece of paper with no name with it), if he didn't want her to have his cell number, or just wanted privacy. IIRC we had this discussion already and because you have never used it or never felt the need to use it, IMO you don't understand why someone else would. *67 has been around for years, it's there for a purpose, whether you use it or not, doesn't mean other's don't.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-74-Toll-Free-Records.pdf
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...rial-Exhibit-359-Avery-Call-Log-2005Oct31.pdf

You can explain it away anyway you like, but *67 to most implies a concealment of identity. If she had picked up, would he have told TH who he was ? He certainly didn't try and conceal his identity @ 4:35pm. Most would call and say "Hey, it's Steven Avery and I'm calling to see if you're on your way to photo my sister's van". And since Avery did not go back to work, what difference did it make what time she showed up ? IMO, Avery was concerned about the time as he had only a small window to get TH to his trailer before some of all of the Dasseys showed up at home or BoD was awake. Little did he know that BoD was already awake.



Leaving Barb's number - It was her van. SA is not the only one that did this that day and I bet it happened all the time. Her first appointment that day was with Craig Sippel. TH met with Steven Schmitz though, at his house where the vehicle was. Was Schmitz trying to lure Teresa? http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=6 I recall a discussion on here somewhere that someone in Wisconsin could only sell so many vehicles before being considered a business, this would be a good reason to make sure it was in Barb's name since it was her vehicle and he wasn't actually making money off of it... according to Jodi, SA would buy cheap and sell to make extra money, this can be found here: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=162

Again IMO, an attempt to deceive and trick TH into coming out to the property. Why would he leave Barb's # if there would be no one home to pick up the call if TH called back ? And TH had already been out to the ASY 5 times prior ( SA said 15). No reason not to say "It's Steven Avery @ the Avery Salvage Yard and I'd like to get my sister's van in the AT. If you send the same girl that was here on 10/10, she knows where we are. Have her give me a call @ *advertiser censored*-xxxx (SA's number) to confirm a time".

And most info says Barb didn't even want to sell the van, so why did SA push to sell it and get AT out there ? As for selling cars, the ASY biz did this to make cash when they had a vehicle they actually could fix and resell. Not just parts.


SA had 3 days to clean up - How would SA know he had 3 days? How would he know that her parents wouldn't notice her missing or her friggen room mate didn't notice her missing? (this still bothers me that it took SB 3 days to notice!!!)

He didn't know and may explain why he had BD cleaning the garage that night. No one knows when Avery scrubbed the trailer but he most certainly cleaned. Surprising for a guy with so much dirt under his fingernails. I also think he thought he had time to crush the car as well and that explains the location in which it was left.

She was inside Avery’s home during the Halbach investigation: What she saw that’s stuck with her

As for SB not reporting her missing, that tells me that TH was prone to not always staying overnight in the home she was living in. Nothing sinister there if SB was not in on the details.


Bookcase being shook - Before it was shook: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/exhibit-208.jpg After it was shook: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/exhibit-210.jpg How does that receipt happen to stay in the exact same position after it was handled so roughly by Colborn? There are other photo's out there and I have seen where people have even been able to match up the coins in the same spots. How is that even logical?

Quite possibly, the shelves were emptied on the cabinet (the bottom and middle compartments look totally different) and the top of the bookcases was never disturbed. Emptying the middle and bottom might have disturbed the key and it fell to the ground.


Who else had a cut on their finger at the time - who knows, did LE check out anyone else other than the Avery family?

Why would they if Steven Avery was admittedly the last to see TH alive ? KZ certainly is making a big deal out of BoD having scratches on his back. And LE interviewed everyone at the ASY that day so how do you know if they checked or not ?


Why didn't Avery go back to work? - again, who knows. But again, according to Jodi, he only worked a couple of hours a day. That is in one of her interviews, here: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=163

That is not what Steven told LE - he said that he started work around 8 and got off around 5. So if only worked 2 hours a day, he's a liar.


The answers to a lot of these questions can be found in the documents, I know there are a lot of them and it's a lot of information, but it's there. Things like him calling to sell Barb's van is actually not as nefarious as Kratz made it sound when you understand that others did it too, or knowing that everyone in the family was aware the van was being sold, it's not like it was a secret. Some thought it was junk, but this is what SA did... he sold vehicles, bought vehicles. IIRC the intention was to buy the boys, or Blaine, a better vehicle to drive, but that's just silly right? cuz what 16 or 17 yr old boy doesn't love a good old mini van to drive!

If I was as poor as the Dasseys, I would've taken any car I could get as a teen. But that is me.

Thanks for the your detailed response. Your POV is different than mine as we're on opposite sides of the case. My comments in red italics above. IMO ...

 

[proudfootz]

Another post full of innuendo, exaggerations and straight up fabrications.

Yup - the prosecution case can be made up of nothing but hot air but the defense is supposed to come back with 100% irrefutable mathematical proofs.

Sorry, but that's not how it's supposed to work.

 

[Sustained]

Yup - the prosecution case can be made up of nothing but hot air but the defense is supposed to come back with 100% irrefutable mathematical proofs.

Sorry, but that's not how it's supposed to work.

DNA and confessions are not hot air.