"Stun Gun" marks

[JMO8778]

I have a feeling that a whole lot more than JB's body was buried in that casket. And I agree with you, those "stun gun marks", weren't really stun gun marks. JR knows this, and that is one reason that he doesn't want her body exhumed. If he really wanted justice for his little daughter, he would be jumping at the chance to have her body exhumed, and would have had it done YEARS ago, if there was ANY possibility at ALL that more evidence would be found, and that her killer could possibly be caught because of it. He would have done it for his daughter, AND for all of the other little kids out there that the "intruder" may eventually molest and kill. There was no intruder...that is pretty evident...and as I have stated above, theres alot more in that casket than anyone knows....IMO

possibly;once herb body was released ,does LE have any authority after that?was she sent straight for buriel after the funeral,or would LE have been allowed to take a look inside the casket if they wanted to?anyone know?

 

[Ames]

..quite possibly she was strangled with the scarf,and not a shirt collar,(which PR said JR 'just bought' ,but did he just buy it?)

I have wondered about that scarf myself. They say that they put items in the casket that was special to JB....first of all....I don't know ANY 6 year old that loves scarfs, the 6 year olds that I know would say " You bought be a scarf?? Why?? Aren't those for old ladies?" Second of all....if he had just bought it, then how could it be "special" to JB? I could understand maybe placing an old doll that she slept with all the time, in the casket with her...or something like that. But a scarf?? Weird!!

 

[Ames]

Could bruises that weren't showing when the autopsy was done show up later? There's a picture of a dead man's stun gun marks 6 mo later and they still looked fresh. He'd been dead that long.

Not that I want us to get into the stun gun discussion again. But you're saying the marks might look different now, more pronounced? More definitive? That those who disagreed before that they were stun gun marks might now agree they were if they could see the body now? Would there still be flesh on it ten years later?

I really don't know about bruises that didn't show up before, showing up later, or if they would look different now, more pronounced or more definitive. BUT...if another ME were to look at her, and take into consideration that quite possibly that those marks COULD have been made by rings, or some other object....instead of JUST focusing on a stun gun...because remember, those marks were ABRASIONS....not burn marks, and if they could be a little more objective than the ME from ten years ago...and use modern forensic science, the cause of those marks might really be found. JB's killer has never been caught...I just find it quite odd that her own father wouldn't okay a second autopsy for her...and I think that his not wanting to disturb her and letting her rest in peace, is just a line of bull. How can she rest in peace with her killer running around free?? What in the world would it hurt, for John to give permission for her body to be exhumed and examined again? Quite possibly, with the use of modern forensic science, new evidence could be found....JR doesn't want this...IMO

 

[Ames]

I think there is a test they can do on the skin to see if it's from a stun gun?

That's quite possible, forensic science, and other gathering of evidence has came along way since ten years ago. I have NO doubt, that they would find SOMETHING that they missed in 1996. It is also my understanding that a stun gun would leave burn marks....she had "abrasions"...there IS a difference. IMO

 

[Ames]

possibly;once herb body was released ,does LE have any authority after that?was she sent straight for buriel after the funeral,or would LE have been allowed to take a look inside the casket if they wanted to?anyone know?

I am not 100 percent sure, but I think that after the body has been released to the family for burial, that only family and people given permission like friends...would be able to look inside the casket, because the body THEN belonged to the family.

 

[JMO8778]

I really don't know about bruises that didn't show up before, showing up later, or if they would look different now, more pronounced or more definitive. BUT...if another ME were to look at her, and take into consideration that quite possibly that those marks COULD have been made by rings, or some other object....instead of JUST focusing on a stun gun...because remember, those marks were ABRASIONS....not burn marks, and if they could be a little more objective than the ME from ten years ago...and use modern forensic science, the cause of those marks might really be found. JB's killer has never been caught...I just find it quite odd that her own father wouldn't okay a second autopsy for her...and I think that his not wanting to disturb her and letting her rest in peace, is just a line of bull. How can she rest in peace with her killer running around free?? What in the world would it hurt, for John to give permission for her body to be exhumed and examined again? Quite possibly, with the use of modern forensic science, new evidence could be found....JR doesn't want this...IMO

yes,and that's exactly what he's afriad of..the truth on the matter,once and for all.

 

[Ames]

yes,and that's exactly what he's afriad of..the truth on the matter,once and for all.

You are right...he doesn't need to have her body exhumed, to maybe find out the truth...because he already knows what the truth is. He knows what the truth is, but doesn't want anyone else to find out...because he knows that it would mean jail time for him. JMO

 

[Eagle1]

Ames is probably right that there are some items in the casket that we don't know about. But you'd think the Ramseys are educated enough to foresee possible exhumation interest later on. Or would normal people in their unusual circumstance just assume the possible evidence is permanently buried and nobody will question it?

 

[BBB167893]

Or would normal people in their unusual circumstance just assume the possible evidence is permanently buried and nobody will question it?

I'll say yes until something better comes along. After all, they weren't exactly thrilled with the exhumation idea.

 

[Ames]

I'll say yes until something better comes along. After all, they weren't exactly thrilled with the exhumation idea.

I really do wish that there was a way to get around JR permission for an exhumation. If a person wasn't guilty of killing their own daughter...or knew who DID, and help to stage an "intruder did it" crime scene...they would have given permission a LONG time ago, when they realized that the "killer" of their daughter may not be caught, without a 2nd autopsy...and that maybe, just maybe....having her body exhumed and having a 2nd autopsy would shed some light on a few things, that may have been overlooked 10 years ago. If it were MY daughter, and her killer was still out there, I would agree to a 2nd and 3rd and 4th....exhumation and autopsy if I had to...if it would help solve the crime, and finally help her rest in peace. Afterall, I believe...and I believe that the Ramsey's believed (because they were supposed Christians) that their daughters body is just a shell, anyway. She is not in the ground, she is in Heaven.

 

[Jayelles]

An exhumation likely wouldn't be worthwhile now. Her body will have decomposed too much. I understand that although she was embalmed, this only preserves the body for a bit longer - not indefinitely.

 

[Jayelles]

I came across this in the 2000 interviews - regarding the "burn marks" on the duct tape. I think "Carol McCane" is meant to be "Carol McKinley". I alsop doubt she was the source. The only person I've heard promoting the possibility that one of the prongs of the "stungun" landed on the duct tape, causing the adhesive to melt is jameson!

17 Q. What are you aware of, I guess,
18 is the question, about the stun gun?
19 A. Well, I was aware that it was
20 highly likely that one was used, which is a
21 very distressing fact. I learned, and I
22 think I heard this in the media, it might
23 have been Carol McCane, I don't remember,
24 said something about there were burn marks on
25 the tape. I don't know if that is true or
0040
1 not.
2 Q. But you don't know of any experts
3 that say that?
4 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.

 

[Camper]

"Recently, newly purchased lovely silk scarf" (Words taken
from DOI) spoken by PR in the book, still haunt me.

I do believe that the scarf was involved in sexual
activity with Jon Benet. An exhumation could possibly reveal caught fibres from
the ROPE within the scarf.

Fine silk fabric is EXTREMELY strong, and would and could
in fact pick up or better said, 'snag' and hold tiny fibres
in its very strong weave.

Forensic study on 'the' scarf that JR tucked around his babys
neck while she lay in her coffin, could give a jump start to
the dead case.

Particularly IF the entire scarf was wrapped around her neck
for padding DURING the sexual assault.

Forensic testing would reveal MORE rope evidence within the
scarf, OTHER than just a few from the coffin tucking around her
neck ceremony.

ESPECIALLY IF IF it had been used more than JUST ONCE.

IMOP

.

 

[Ames]

An exhumation likely wouldn't be worthwhile now. Her body will have decomposed too much. I understand that although she was embalmed, this only preserves the body for a bit longer - not indefinitely.

Yeah Jayelles, I am sure that you are right about that. Too bad one wasn't performed YEARS ago. Although her body may be too decomposed...I just wonder, if maybe she could be exhumed, just to see what else is in that casket with her. Am I wrong, or did they bury her with Sister Socks? Could that stuffed animal be hiding evidence?? What about the scarf...that supposedly was a favorite of JB's. Excuse me...but I know alot of 6 year olds, and NONE of them like scarves. I just found it odd that she would have been buried with one. Weird....

 

[Ames]

"Recently, newly purchased lovely silk scarf" (Words taken
from DOI) spoken by PR in the book, still haunt me.

I do believe that the scarf was involved in sexual
activity with Jon Benet. An exhumation could possibly reveal caught fibres from
the ROPE within the scarf.

Fine silk fabric is EXTREMELY strong, and would and could
in fact pick up or better said, 'snag' and hold tiny fibres
in its very strong weave.

Forensic study on 'the' scarf that JR tucked around his babys
neck while she lay in her coffin, could give a jump start to
the dead case.

Particularly IF the entire scarf was wrapped around her neck
for padding DURING the sexual assault.

Forensic testing would reveal MORE rope evidence within the
scarf, OTHER than just a few from the coffin tucking around her
neck ceremony.

ESPECIALLY IF IF it had been used more than JUST ONCE.

IMOP

.

As you can see from my post reply to Jayelles....I totally agree with you about the scarf...there is just something odd about buring a 6 year old with a scarf. I am thinking that it was probably used FIRST to strangle her with, before the garotte.

 

[Jayelles]

That's one of the weird things in this case - a while back, a poster noticed that JonBenet had been buried with a scarf, a bracelet, a tiara and a cat - SBTC. I found it hard to believe at first, but it's all documented.

 

[Ames]

That's one of the weird things in this case - a while back, a poster noticed that JonBenet had been buried with a scarf, a bracelet, a tiara and a cat - SBTC. I found it hard to believe at first, but it's all documented.

Yep, I read about that on FFJ, I believe. Whoever discovered that, sure did some great detective work. That is weird though, isn't it? Maybe for some reason, they wanted those intitials to be represented, and couldn't think of anything else that started with an "S" to use, except for a scarf. BIZARRE. Maybe those intitials have something to do with the REASON that she died....and maybe it made the Ramsey's feel better, if JB was buried with something that represented each letter..."SBTC". And maybe I am grasping at thin air, and there was nothing to it....it just seems extremely bizarre to me, then again...everything about this case is bizarre.

 

[DeDee]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-45908-p-2.html

Hello Camper,

There are two types of TASER 50,000 volt stun guns. One type is a standard hand-held stun gun that must be held against the body of the target. It discharges each time the trigger is pulled and the length of the charge is dependant on how long the shooter holds down the trigger. There are no wires. This is the type of Taser stun gun that, IMO, was used on JonBenet.

The other type of Taser brand stun gun, used by law enforcement, shoots two retrievable darts for up to about 15 feet, each dart remaining attached to the taser by wires. The darts are barbed like a fish hook, attach themselves onto the victim, and must be physically removed after the victim has been placed under control and handcuffed. The gun can be used like a standard hand-held stun gun if the darts miss the target, but requires the shooter to close ranks with the target and struggle with him to get the twin metal prongs of the Taser against the body of the target. In both cases the trigger must be pulled each time to send a jolt. The darts and wires are retrievable, but cannot be re-loaded in the field.

Hope this helps.

BlueCrab

JMO,

There were 3 sets of "abrasions" on JonBenet. Each set had two tiny burn marks which some are calling abrasions because that's how the coroner described them in the autopsy report. However, he later agreed that the marks were also consistent with stun gun injuries The twin marks are about 1 3/8 inches apart, the same distance apart as the twin prongs on a Taser brand stun gun. One set of marks was on the right side of her face, near the ear. The second set was on the lower left side of her back. The third set was on the lower rear of the left leg, near the ankle.

The largest and ugliest mark was the one on JonBenet's face. The clearest set of marks was on her back. The smallest set was on her leg, which the coroner originally described as tiny scratches.

BlueCrab

Using the common denominator of a 1/16th of an inch, here are the dimensions of the facial, back, and leg wounds-

under the right ear- 6/16 x 4/16
right side of chin- 3/16 x 2/16
back #1- 2/16 x 1/16
back #2- 2/16 x 3/16
leg #1- 1/16 x less than 1/16
leg #2- 2/16 x less than 1/16

JessieBell,

There have been several detailed discussions on this forum about whether or not the "stun gun" marks on JonBenet could have been from the built-in hardware in the blue suitcase. About 5 years ago I remember experimenting by my 6-yr-old granddaughter volunteering to climb into a hard-sided suitcase similar to and about the same size as the Ramsey suitcase. She fit in easily, but there were no hardware items that lined up with the known marks left anywhere on JonBenet.

IMO the "stun gun" marks on JonBenet were just that -- they were stun gun marks. The rectangular twin injuries on Jon Benet's lower back; and on the lower leg; and on the face, closely match the measurements of the twin metal prongs on a Taser brand stun gun. The tiny injuries were originally recognized as abrasions and not stun gun injuries, but after further studies the coroner, Dr. John Meyer, changed his opinion and admitted the injuries were consistent with stun gun injuries. Other forensic pathologists who had first-hand experience with stun gun injuries agreed with Meyer.

BlueCrab

 

[DeeDee249]

I have to say the marks on JB always looked like stun gun marks to me. I have to say that I have never seen where the coroner later admitted that they could have been stun gun marks, apart from Blue Crab's post.

I am probably one of the few RDIs who believe that a stun gun could have been used. I do not think it is mutually exclusive with RDI.
An instructional video on stun gun use was found in the R home. When JR was questioned about it, he admitted they owned the video, but not the stun gun. He said that since the video was in Spanish it wasn't useful.
True to form, Police never questioned him further on the matter and as far as I know, did not try to determine whether this particular video came with a stun gun or was sold alone. Just because JR claimed he did not own a stun gun does not mean he did not own one.
The refusal of the Rs to allow an exhumation and the refusal of the DA to obtain a warrant to override their refusal fairly scream "we don't want the truth to be known". So soon after her death, it would certainly have been able to be determined whether those "abrasions" were electrical burns, cigarette burns (they resemble these too) or abrasions (which really are areas where skin is rubbed or scraped away). I'd think it would be hard to abrade skin in a perfect little circle like that.
At the time, the DA's office was pushing to release the body to the family for the elaborate, public, televised funeral that Patsy was planning. The coroner treated the body like a "hot potato". He couldn't wait to get it out of his custody. Police wanted the coroner to keep it a bit longer, in case there was something he missed (like what might have made those "abrasions"). The police were accused by the DA's office (Pete Hofstrom, specifically) of trying to hold the body for "ransom" - the ransom being interviews with the parents. This was simply more posturing by the defense team's minions at the DA's office. Had they not succeeded in blocking the exhumation, we would probably know what made those marks.
I have seen where the company that made the Taser stun gun believed to have been a possible instrument to have made those marks, and they have denied their product could have made them. I have seen the photos with the Taser prongs superimposed on the marks on the body, and they are off only very slightly. To me, this could simply be because the skin is indented under pressure from the prongs and then "pops back up" when the prongs are removed. It isn't hard to envision this.

 

[Venom]

IMO- It's plausible that the marks are from a stun gun. But I don't think one was used.
Don't stun guns leave remnants, called dots when they are used?