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Nova said:
I don't know, Idaho. Utah may give Idaho a run for its money on this one!

When the dust finally settled in California, it was the elderly (not African-Americans) who voted to ban gay marriage so overwhelmingly. I figure it's only a matter of time, but I hate the idea that we're just waiting for people to die so we can have equal rights. I hope the CA supreme court settles the matter, or a strong "education" effort does.
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Utah was the first state I thought of as being the last state to get with it!
 
YAY MAINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: 10% of the states in the United States now have marriage equality!

Y'all are probably right about Utah. But that's okay. I'd be happy to be wrong about Idaho!
 
IrishMist said:
Utah was the first state I thought of as being the last state to get with it!
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Hell, half of Utah donated money to keep gay marriage out of California! (I'm exaggerating, but only a bit.)

Gotta love New England! If only the weather there weren't so beastly...
 
My guess is Utah will be last. I'm not holding any hope that Texas will come around any time soon, considering that a few years ago when a black man was dragged to his death, there were still areas where people simply shrugged.
 
I was going to post this in the Miss USA thread, but figured this was a more appropriate place:

Perhaps I just do not understand enough of the issue here, so someone, without attacking me, please explain to me why gays want to marry? I saw the movie If these Walls could Talk several years ago, and I completely sympathized with gays not being given equal civil rights in regard to their companions. My understanding is that it is for civil reasons, such as leaving your possessions to your mate, being considered family and being allowed in hospital rooms etc. gays want to be treated equal. Don't people have the right to leave a will to whomever they want now? Aren't there better hospital visitation rules in place? Can't there be some type of national civil union amendments put in place? Why does it have to be marriage? I feel that the only reason gays are going after marriage is to be shocking and controversial. Gays are "not traditional" in their approach to their lifestyle, so why bother being "traditional" with a marriage? Is it a matter of wording? Do marriage licenses need to be changed to be called civil unions for all people, regardless of sexual preference, and the word "marriage" reserved for religious ceremonies? I personally feel that "marriage" should be between one man and one woman, but if there is a church that is willing to perform a marriage between two men, or two women, that is their preference, and I have no problem with their choice as a church community to do so. Is this really just an issue of legal and civil issues, or an issue of wording? With that being said, I do not feel ANYONE should be fired regardless of their race, gender, or sexual preference. I guess that is what it boils down to for me--why is what someone doing in their bedroom anyone elses business? In my opinion, gays try so hard to show HOW different they are, but then they want to be treated the same? People SHOULD be treated the same, and that is why I support civil unions. What people do in their bedrooms should be private. Rights should not be based on sexual preference (except in regards to the safety of others like child sex offenders), they should be based on PEOPLE. Also, why are so many people for equal rights for all but not for the rights of unborn children? Isn't that a double standard?

I will say, that I am alittle frustrated by comments made about CA's Prop 8. It was voted on and approved by the MAJORITY of CA, regardless of their age, race etc. Making statements about waiting for people to die so you can get YOUR choice decided on is rude. Why bother voting for anything if that vote is not going to count? What happened to democracy and majority rules? Just because you don't like the outcome means that you have to take it to superior court---what right does a judge have to decide on something that a MAJORITY of Americans(Californians) rightfully voted on and approved? If you feel so strongly about your position, make positive steps to change peoples perceptions respectfully, not by disregarding a majority of a states votes?? Does democracy only work when it is in your favor? Why not take a first step in gaining peoples respect by respecting them as well? Wishing old people dead is disrespectful...


Lastly, I am 100% open to change, as long as it respects EVERYONES rights. I have four gay friends. They are ALL against gay marriage and what it presents, so that is partially why I have so many questions. If my own gay friends do not support this, why is it important for me to?
 
On *the most* basic level,
Gay Americans are fighting for the right to marry because, as Americans, they should be afforded the same civil rights we all are under our Constitution.
Marriage is a civil issue first, then a religious one.
The CIVIL RIGHT to be married, civil unioned, whatever...should be extended first.
Then, let the churches take it from there.
:cow:, of course.
 
Julessleuther said:
I was going to post this in the Miss USA thread, but figured this was a more appropriate place:

Perhaps I just do not understand enough of the issue here, so someone, without attacking me, please explain to me why gays want to marry? I saw the movie If these Walls could Talk several years ago, and I completely sympathized with gays not being given equal civil rights in regard to their companions. My understanding is that it is for civil reasons, such as leaving your possessions to your mate, being considered family and being allowed in hospital rooms etc. gays want to be treated equal. Don't people have the right to leave a will to whomever they want now? Aren't there better hospital visitation rules in place? Can't there be some type of national civil union amendments put in place? Why does it have to be marriage? I feel that the only reason gays are going after marriage is to be shocking and controversial. Gays are "not traditional" in their approach to their lifestyle, so why bother being "traditional" with a marriage? Is it a matter of wording? Do marriage licenses need to be changed to be called civil unions for all people, regardless of sexual preference, and the word "marriage" reserved for religious ceremonies? I personally feel that "marriage" should be between one man and one woman, but if there is a church that is willing to perform a marriage between two men, or two women, that is their preference, and I have no problem with their choice as a church community to do so. Is this really just an issue of legal and civil issues, or an issue of wording? With that being said, I do not feel ANYONE should be fired regardless of their race, gender, or sexual preference. I guess that is what it boils down to for me--why is what someone doing in their bedroom anyone elses business? In my opinion, gays try so hard to show HOW different they are, but then they want to be treated the same? People SHOULD be treated the same, and that is why I support civil unions. What people do in their bedrooms should be private. Rights should not be based on sexual preference (except in regards to the safety of others like child sex offenders), they should be based on PEOPLE. Also, why are so many people for equal rights for all but not for the rights of unborn children? Isn't that a double standard?

I will say, that I am alittle frustrated by comments made about CA's Prop 8. It was voted on and approved by the MAJORITY of CA, regardless of their age, race etc. Making statements about waiting for people to die so you can get YOUR choice decided on is rude. Why bother voting for anything if that vote is not going to count? What happened to democracy and majority rules? Just because you don't like the outcome means that you have to take it to superior court---what right does a judge have to decide on something that a MAJORITY of Americans(Californians) rightfully voted on and approved? If you feel so strongly about your position, make positive steps to change peoples perceptions respectfully, not by disregarding a majority of a states votes?? Does democracy only work when it is in your favor? Why not take a first step in gaining peoples respect by respecting them as well? Wishing old people dead is disrespectful...


Lastly, I am 100% open to change, as long as it respects EVERYONES rights. I have four gay friends. They are ALL against gay marriage and what it presents, so that is partially why I have so many questions. If my own gay friends do not support this, why is it important for me to?
Click to expand...

Good questions, Jules! I too have some have some gay friends who don't want anything to do with "marriage."

Here's a link to a pretty good opinion about why separate is not equal when we are discussing civil unions vs. marriages: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions...riage_debate_separate_but_equal_wont_cut.html I agree with all the points the author makes.

If you want some more heavy duty legal reading, I can round up some of the State Supreme Court decisions that enumerate the reasons civil unions fail to give equal rights.

As far as California and the majority vote against gay marriage - for a long time, the majority of Americans didn't think blacks deserved equal rights - fortunately, State Constitutions are set up to protect a minority from being denied rights even when the majority thinks they should be denied rights. That's one of the things that makes this country so awesome!
 
Why Why Why do folks care who anyone else is in love with. Geesh, sometimes I think we are still in the middle ages.

Don't worry about whom I love or my neighbor loves. Concentrate on your own life and make it better. Maybe read a book or two. Come out of your cocoon and realize there are many people in the world that aren't like you.

Remember that song from Bible school? Jesus loves the little children? Does that not encompass everyone?

Sorry for the rant. I am just so tired of people judging others because of their sexual preference.

I judge folks by their character, not by their love life.
 
gogrannypop said:
Why Why Why do folks care who anyone else is in love with. Geesh, sometimes I think we are still in the middle ages.

Don't worry about whom I love or my neighbor loves. Concentrate on your own life and make it better. Maybe read a book or two. Come out of your cocoon and realize there are many people in the world that aren't like you.

Remember that song from Bible school? Jesus loves the little children? Does that not encompass everyone?

Sorry for the rant. I am just so tired of people judging others because of their sexual preference.

I judge folks by their character, not by their love life.
Click to expand...

Gogrannypop :blowkiss: will you be my new best friend?
 
Ok--so if it is a civil union, then why don't gays support a civil union law? Why do they go after the definition of marriage? Do gays want to get "married" or do they want a civil union? If they want a civil union, why are they not saying that? I am not Truly not trying to be disrespectful, on the contrary, I want to extend the same respect to all, I am just so trying to understand the whys and hows of the controversy. Why then, does Obama want marriage to be between a man and woman, and why did so many(85%) gays vote him in office if his viewpoint is contrary to theirs?


EmMomma said:
Gay Americans are fighting for the right to marry because, as Americans, they should be afforded the same civil rights we all are under our Constitution.
Marriage is a civil issue first, then a religious one.
The CIVIL RIGHT to be married, civil unioned, whatever...should be extended first.
Then, let the churches take it from there.
:cow:, of course.
Click to expand...
 
You are absolutely right about the issue of civil rights and blacks, and a point I had not considered. We are working on civil rights issues with our 2nd grade classes (I am a teachers asst.) and I was just discussing today how, as a child, in the early 1970's, I was oblivious to all the controversy surrounding blacks and civil rights. As a white child in school, my best friend was a black girl, but we did not see each other skin color, we just saw our friendship. I agree that every person should be treated equal, but why does SEX have to come into the equation? Isn't that private? Why do people need to even know each others sexual preference? Are we breaking it down too much? I will review the links you provided, thank you for your kind and respectful insight.
southcitymom said:
Good questions, Jules! I too have some have some gay friends who don't want anything to do with "marriage."

Here's a link to a pretty good opinion about why separate is not equal when we are discussing civil unions vs. marriages: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions...riage_debate_separate_but_equal_wont_cut.html I agree with all the points the author makes.

If you want some more heavy duty legal reading, I can round up some of the State Supreme Court decisions that enumerate the reasons civil unions fail to give equal rights.

As far as California and the majority vote against gay marriage - for a long time, the majority of Americans didn't think blacks deserved equal rights - fortunately, State Constitutions are set up to protect a minority from being denied rights even when the majority thinks they should be denied rights. That's one of the things that makes this country so awesome!
Click to expand...
 
Julessleuther said:
Ok--so if it is a civil union, then why don't gays support a civil union law? Why do they go after the definition of marriage? Do gays want to get "married" or do they want a civil union? If they want a civil union, why are they not saying that? I am not Truly not trying to be disrespectful, on the contrary, I want to extend the same respect to all, I am just so trying to understand the whys and hows of the controversy. Why then, does Obama want marriage to be between a man and woman, and why did so many(85%) gays vote him in office if his viewpoint is contrary to theirs?
Click to expand...

IMHO, most gay people want the option of marriage, even if they personally do not want to get married. I don't necessarily understand what you mean about "going after" the definition of marriage. Marriage is a legal term and a legal institution - they would like their most personal and primary relationships to enjoy the rights, respect and protection that comes with that institution.

As for Obama's personal views on gay marriage - regardless of whether or not Obama's views on the subject are/were the exactly same as theirs or not, Obama's (and the Democratic party's) views on the subject are much more in line with what many gay people want that the alternative - McCain and the Republican Party.
 
Julessleuther said:
Ok--so if it is a civil union, then why don't gays support a civil union law? Why do they go after the definition of marriage? Do gays want to get "married" or do they want a civil union? If they want a civil union, why are they not saying that? I am not Truly not trying to be disrespectful, on the contrary, I want to extend the same respect to all, I am just so trying to understand the whys and hows of the controversy. Why then, does Obama want marriage to be between a man and woman, and why did so many(85%) gays vote him in office if his viewpoint is contrary to theirs?
Click to expand...

I think that saying that gay people wouldn't be happy with a civil union is making a huge generalization.
Many of my gay friends would be happy with anything that would afford them the ability to have a joint household with their partner (to include health insurance, etc.).
IMO, it's splitting hairs. I don't think that the majority of gay people care what it's called, they just want this VERY BASIC CIVIL RIGHT.
I don't know people's reasons for voting for Obama, but that's a different thread entirely. :crazy:
BTW, I posted on the Miss Cali thread a week or so ago that my mom's neighbors Jim and Bob recently celebrated their 47th anniversary, so there are same sex couple that can make it work without the legal obligation.
We allow straight couples to get married and divorced on a whim...I'm just saying. Anoyone who wants to argue about the sanctity of marriage should take a look at the divorce rate in this country and realize that's a non-issue. :cow:
 
Ha ha! I have to agree on that one. And on a contrary note from conservatives--why is it ok for everyone who is married to divorce (which for the bible thumpers is a "sin"), but not EVERYONE to "marry" because that is a sin? Hmmmmm I do not come at this from a religious perspective, but a personal choice perspective.

reportertype said:
Me too, me too!!

I know a few gay couples who could care less about marriage, given the absolute MESS most heterosexuals make of it.
Click to expand...
 
Julessleuther said:
You are absolutely right about the issue of civil rights and blacks, and a point I had not considered. We are working on civil rights issues with our 2nd grade classes (I am a teachers asst.) and I was just discussing today how, as a child, in the early 1970's, I was oblivious to all the controversy surrounding blacks and civil rights. As a white child in school, my best friend was a black girl, but we did not see each other skin color, we just saw our friendship. I agree that every person should be treated equal, but why does SEX have to come into the equation? Isn't that private? Why do people need to even know each others sexual preference? Are we breaking it down too much? I will review the links you provided, thank you for your kind and respectful insight.
Click to expand...

Gay people don't need to be afforded the right to marry in order to have sex. :waitasec:
Gay people will be gay people, whether our country can overcome this archaic viewpoint or not.
I don't understand where sex comes into the equation at all...
 
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