Tape on Jon Benets mouth - New info

[BBB167893]

The one issue that has always stood out foremost to me is that the duct tape had a perfect lip impression from JonBenet - proving that there was no struggle from her whenever the tape was placed over her mouth....

I came to the same conclusion.

Hmm, interesting. Maybe this suggests that JonBenet' was unconscious
when this occured, or she was somehow being tricked into doing something,(
which I find hard to believe.)

Likewise. There's something else, too: the tape had bloody mucus under it as well. That suggests to me someone "on the way out" even more strongly.

I've always thought the head blow came before the strangulation,
but there's always doubt in my mind.

There's substantial evidence for that, Connor. Keep up your good work.

 

[DeeDee249]

The matter of the duct tape, with it's lip prints and bloody mucous, which indicated that JBR was unconscious and to me proves that the head blow came first, was always another thing I felt needed to be SAID by the coroner/LE. We are strangers to this case- they were involved. Can it be that we all have theories and opinions and they do not? Of course not. They must all be under that same code of silence.
I have always thought that JR had such a virulent hatred for FW after this crime because he knew FW KNEW things. And his way of making sure FW kept quiet was to put the spotlight of suspicion on FW. FW knows whether her legs were taped, her wrists were tied, and the tape was on her mouth. He was right behind JR when they went into the wineceller. And FW knew that there was NO body in there earlier. Despite the fact that FW was unable find the light switch for that room, he did not search in a dark basement with a flashlight- they of course turned the other basement lights on. There would have been enough ambient light from the hall. The wineceller was not a huge room. She wasn't that far from the doorway, all you had to do was look in and turn your head slightly. The white blanket would have stood out against the darker concrete floor. I believe LE had conducted a test of that very thing, testing whether anything could be seen on the floor if the room was dark, but the hall lights were on, and I believe it was determined that FW should have been able to see the body in the blanket if she really had been in there then.
Now livor mortis patterns tell us that the body was not moved while livor mortis was still in the blanching stage. After livor becomes fixed, also known as non-blanching, (a matter of hours), then no new livor patterns will form even if the body is moved. So if JBR was not in the wineceller when FW first looked in the early AM, it could certainly have been that JR moved her there when he did his 2-hour disappearance to "get the mail" - from his FRONT DOOR. By that time, which Det. Arndt stated was around 10 AM, livor would have been fixed, with death occurring approx. 10 hours earlier, and she could have been moved without anyone being able to tell.

 

[JMO8778]

where do you think she might have been hidden? I've read some speculation about it being the freezer in the basement.

 

[JMO8778]

where do you think she might have been hidden? I've read some speculation about it being the freezer in the basement.

 

[Camper]

where do you think she might have been hidden? I've read some speculation about it being the freezer in the basement.

--->>>My memory recalls that there was a 'walk-in' freezer on the main level of the Ramsey house?!?!?

Super Dave or someone, can you straighten this out, basement/main floor/or both/er?

.

 

[BBB167893]

--->>>My memory recalls that there was a 'walk-in' freezer on the main level of the Ramsey house?!?!?

Super Dave or someone, can you straighten this out, basement/main floor/or both/er?

.

Basement, I believe.

 

[DeeDee249]

--->>>My memory recalls that there was a 'walk-in' freezer on the main level of the Ramsey house?!?!?

Super Dave or someone, can you straighten this out, basement/main floor/or both/er?

.

There was no walk-in freezer in the basement. There was a standard chest-type freezer in the basement and a walk-in refrigerator in the kitchen.

 

[DeeDee249]

where do you think she might have been hidden? I've read some speculation about it being the freezer in the basement.

I am not sure. There is the rigor and livor mortis to consider. Livor patterns indicate that the body was not moved after death during the period that livor is in the stage where it blanches. After it becomes fixed, the body may be moved with no new pattern forming, but by that time, rigor mortis would have advanced enough that whatever position she was hidden in she would have remained in. It is possible that she may have fit in the basement freezer lying on her back, legs straight out, as she was found. In that case, the livor pattern would remain the same because she was on her back. But I haven't seen photos of the freezer to see if she would have fit that way. If the walk-in fridge in the kitchen was large enough to have a floor that she could have been laid down on the same way, that may also be possible. But freezing changes tissue- the coroner should have been able to tell if she'd been in a freezer, assuming it was plugged in. It may not have been. If she was hidden at all, it could have been in either place, if large enough for her to be placed on her back. The cold temp of the fridge would also have delayed the onset of rigor mortis, making her death occurring even closer to their 10pm arrival home.
So all things considered, I'd say that either the basement freezer if it was not turned on, or she was in the wineceller, but possibly under something where she would not have been seen by FW when he looked in. Other possibilities are the trunk of a car.

 

[nostoneunturned]

Why would you, as a mother cover up the murder of your beautiful daughter? There is only one reason in MO. To protect the one child you have left. It was Christmas night. Toys had been opened, maybe someone felt jealous, the attack ,the damaged done,911 call,fear,panic,denial,brain storm,the letter, the calls,the body stage,the search,the body discovery,the contamination of evidence,the removal of the brother,the continual denial of truth, the tragedy of another child who would have been forgotten if not for people demanding justice for these children.
GO get em

 

[DeeDee249]

Why would you, as a mother cover up the murder of your beautiful daughter? There is only one reason in MO. To protect the one child you have left. It was Christmas night. Toys had been opened, maybe someone felt jealous, the attack ,the damaged done,911 call,fear,panic,denial,brain storm,the letter, the calls,the body stage,the search,the body discovery,the contamination of evidence,the removal of the brother,the continual denial of truth, the tragedy of another child who would have been forgotten if not for people demanding justice for these children.
GO get em

I have to say that this is a BIG motive for covering up that crime. I can't say with 100% certainty that is what happened, but IMHO, it is one of the reasons why parents would cover up something like this. It also solves the puzzle about why the Grand Jury chose not to return an indictment. Colorado law doesn't allow children under 10 (BR was just weeks away from his 10th birthday) to be prosecuted or indicted for a crime.

 

[JMO8778]

There was no walk-in freezer in the basement. There was a standard chest-type freezer in the basement and a walk-in refrigerator in the kitchen.

right,and the walk-in fridge is the one JR is trying to account for his prints on in DOI.
I'm wondering what the freezer in the basement was like..was it one of those long chest types that lock? Was it running or not? Even so,it's possible she could have been placed inside it (or behind it).IMO,it was either the paint cans or the freezer being moved that caused the scraping sound the nbor heard.

 

[JMO8778]

I am not sure. There is the rigor and livor mortis to consider. Livor patterns indicate that the body was not moved after death during the period that livor is in the stage where it blanches. After it becomes fixed, the body may be moved with no new pattern forming, but by that time, rigor mortis would have advanced enough that whatever position she was hidden in she would have remained in. It is possible that she may have fit in the basement freezer lying on her back, legs straight out, as she was found. In that case, the livor pattern would remain the same because she was on her back. But I haven't seen photos of the freezer to see if she would have fit that way. If the walk-in fridge in the kitchen was large enough to have a floor that she could have been laid down on the same way, that may also be possible. But freezing changes tissue- the coroner should have been able to tell if she'd been in a freezer, assuming it was plugged in. It may not have been. If she was hidden at all, it could have been in either place, if large enough for her to be placed on her back. The cold temp of the fridge would also have delayed the onset of rigor mortis, making her death occurring even closer to their 10pm arrival home.
So all things considered, I'd say that either the basement freezer if it was not turned on, or she was in the wineceller, but possibly under something where she would not have been seen by FW when he looked in. Other possibilities are the trunk of a car.

thx,all things considered,it wouldn't surprise me if it was revealed someday that she was in the fridge,if even for just a short amt of time.It would fit in more w the pineapple snack and their returning home not too awful late,in anticipation of the trip the next day.

 

[Tadpole12]

I have also read of speculation that JBR's body was stored behind the freezer, ie 'the Jameson factor',

Jameson's speculations from link: ...possibility that the body may have been hidden behind the freezer until it was moved to the "body room". Arndt made it a point to include in her notes that "There was an odor about her." (JonBenet)

 

[DeeDee249]

I have also read of speculation that JBR's body was stored behind the freezer, ie 'the Jameson factor',

Jameson's speculations from link: ...possibility that the body may have been hidden behind the freezer until it was moved to the "body room". Arndt made it a point to include in her notes that "There was an odor about her." (JonBenet)

The "odor about her" that Arndt mentioned was likely from the dried urine that soaked her panties and long johns, as well as the beginning odor of internal decomposition, which 12 hours after death had already begun. This would not be visible externally yet on the body, and first appears as a greenish discoloration on the abdomen over where the intestines are. Decomposition starts there, because of the bacteria already present in the intestines. I don't think the odor had anything to do with her being hidden, behind the freezer or anywhere else. It was just the result of the body's natural post-mortem processes.

 

[Camper]

""Posted by: Tadpole12
On: 01-09-2009 12:16 AM

I have also read of speculation that JBR's body was stored behind the freezer, ie 'the Jameson factor',

Jameson's speculations from link: ...possibility that the body may have been hidden behind the freezer until it was moved to the "body room". Arndt made it a point to include in her notes that "There was an odor about her." (JonBenet)""

AND

""Posted by: DeeDee249
On: 01-09-2009 06:13 PM
The "odor about her" that Arndt mentioned was likely from the dried urine that soaked her panties and long johns, as well as the beginning odor of internal decomposition, which 12 hours after death had already begun. This would not be visible externally yet on the body, and first appears as a greenish discoloration on the abdomen over where the intestines are. Decomposition starts there, because of the bacteria already present in the intestines. I don't think the odor had anything to do with her being hidden, behind the freezer or anywhere else. It was just the result of the body's natural post-mortem processes.""




--->>>About the odor. I find myself wondering about the officers that detected an odor that 'they' could not identify that was in Jon Benets bathroom.

Did the officers sniffers and Arndt's sniffer have occasion to sniff the same two separate odors to compare notes???

As I recall Arndt involvement with odors was confined to 'when' Ramsey brought the body UP from the basement. Otherwise as I recall Arndt was on the MAIN Floor guarding PEOPLE, although JR went unmissed for a time checking the MAIL ->>> WHY would he be checking the MAIL when his daughter has been taken IN THE NIGHT?

This entire case has many odors in it.

I am awaiting the Caylee Anthony case being heard and revelations about the duct tape found on her dead remains, and how successful the fingerprint results are in the ID of fingerprints on the large amount of duct tape found with Caylee's remains.

I donut know how many of our readers frequently dust behind their chest type freezers BUT forensics should/could/might have 'caught' and 'thought' that far, but doubt reigns in my mind on that one. Barney Fife incarnated was present on Dec. 26, early AM and on into the years.

IT IS NOT possible to peel off some duct tape withour leaving your fingerprints on the sticky side. Heck you all knew that already.

Another thought remains for me on how old the responding officers were that smelled the odor in JonBenets bathroom, IF they did not have children of their own they may never have smelled a urine odor on a childs clothing. Barney Fife did not have children either.

.

 

[GingBreade]

""Posted by: Tadpole12
On: 01-09-2009 12:16 AM

I have also read of speculation that JBR's body was stored behind the freezer, ie 'the Jameson factor',

Jameson's speculations from link: ...possibility that the body may have been hidden behind the freezer until it was moved to the "body room". Arndt made it a point to include in her notes that "There was an odor about her." (JonBenet)""

AND

""Posted by: DeeDee249
On: 01-09-2009 06:13 PM
The "odor about her" that Arndt mentioned was likely from the dried urine that soaked her panties and long johns, as well as the beginning odor of internal decomposition, which 12 hours after death had already begun. This would not be visible externally yet on the body, and first appears as a greenish discoloration on the abdomen over where the intestines are. Decomposition starts there, because of the bacteria already present in the intestines. I don't think the odor had anything to do with her being hidden, behind the freezer or anywhere else. It was just the result of the body's natural post-mortem processes.""




--->>>About the odor. I find myself wondering about the officers that detected an odor that 'they' could not identify that was in Jon Benets bathroom.

Did the officers sniffers and Arndt's sniffer have occasion to sniff the same two separate odors to compare notes???

As I recall Arndt involvement with odors was confined to 'when' Ramsey brought the body UP from the basement. Otherwise as I recall Arndt was on the MAIN Floor guarding PEOPLE, although JR went unmissed for a time checking the MAIL ->>> WHY would he be checking the MAIL when his daughter has been taken IN THE NIGHT?

This entire case has many odors in it.

I am awaiting the Caylee Anthony case being heard and revelations about the duct tape found on her dead remains, and how successful the fingerprint results are in the ID of fingerprints on the large amount of duct tape found with Caylee's remains.

I donut know how many of our readers frequently dust behind their chest type freezers BUT forensics should/could/might have 'caught' and 'thought' that far, but doubt reigns in my mind on that one. Barney Fife incarnated was present on Dec. 26, early AM and on into the years.

IT IS NOT possible to peel off some duct tape withour leaving your fingerprints on the sticky side. Heck you all knew that already.

Another thought remains for me on how old the responding officers were that smelled the odor in JonBenets bathroom, IF they did not have children of their own they may never have smelled a urine odor on a childs clothing. Barney Fife did not have children either.

.

That makes total sense to me about the odors! Can you please point me in the right direction to find the interview of the officers that smelled an odor in JB's bathroom? I have heard about this before (and people speculated there was hair dying going on in the bathroom) but have never read what the officers actually said.

 

[Tadpole12]

This entire case has many odors in it.-Camper

Ya, for sure Camper.

Hi DeeDee. Thanks for your input re decompositon process.
Ya. the 'Jameson factor' is ... more than debatable?

Just thought it is interesting ....given that under the bed .... freezer, fridge, dryer, cooler, ... are the first places you look for a 'missing' child ....

 

[DeeDee249]

The odor the officers smelled in her bathroom was the odor of peroxide/bleach, and not associated with the "odor of decay" that Arndt detected when the body was brought up. We know PR colored both her own hair and JBR's. Most commercial hair coloring products have peroxide in them, whether they are for blonde or dark hair. The odor could have been from recent hair coloring. The coroner states in his report that JBR's hair "appears freshly (evenly) colored. I have read that PR had a hard time getting local salons to dye the hair of such a young child, and she may have done it herself at home.

The issue of JR and his 2-hour "mail retrieval" has always frustrated me. The mail slot was in the FRONT DOOR! He was gone 2 HOURS! And Arndt had the inane idea that he had "gone to get the mail" (her words) because she saw him shuffling through mail when he reappeared. I think if I was waiting for kidnappers to call the day I discovered my little girl missing I certainly wouldn't be looking through my mail. But then we all know there was no need to worry about those kidnappers, don't we?
And for whoever might think that because he was planning to be away 2 weeks and may have had his mail held at the Post Office- is that something you'd take 2 hours to leave your home for on the day you are waiting for kidnappers to call? Again- no need to worry. Nobody's gonna call.

 

[Camper]

That makes total sense to me about the odors! Can you please point me in the right direction to find the interview of the officers that smelled an odor in JB's bathroom? I have heard about this before (and people speculated there was hair dying going on in the bathroom) but have never read what the officers actually said.

--->>>I am sorry but I cannot, perhaps someone will step up with a better help for you. I work from memory, books on the case, media reports and total involvement in trying to put pieces of this puzzle together to get a better picture on 'who did IT'.

Many crashes of our WS server destroyed much information that was posted here. A Candy Rose might provide some better information for you. Google her for some better insight.

.

 

[Camper]

The odor the officers smelled in her bathroom was the odor of peroxide/bleach, and not associated with the "odor of decay" that Arndt detected when the body was brought up. We know PR colored both her own hair and JBR's. Most commercial hair coloring products have peroxide in them, whether they are for blonde or dark hair. The odor could have been from recent hair coloring. The coroner states in his report that JBR's hair "appears freshly (evenly) colored. I have read that PR had a hard time getting local salons to dye the hair of such a young child, and she may have done it herself at home.

The issue of JR and his 2-hour "mail retrieval" has always frustrated me. The mail slot was in the FRONT DOOR! He was gone 2 HOURS! And Arndt had the inane idea that he had "gone to get the mail" (her words) because she saw him shuffling through mail when he reappeared. I think if I was waiting for kidnappers to call the day I discovered my little girl missing I certainly wouldn't be looking through my mail. But then we all know there was no need to worry about those kidnappers, don't we?
And for whoever might think that because he was planning to be away 2 weeks and may have had his mail held at the Post Office- is that something you'd take 2 hours to leave your home for on the day you are waiting for kidnappers to call? Again- no need to worry. Nobody's gonna call.

--->>> Do you have a source for this -> "The odor the officers smelled in her bathroom was the odor of peroxide/bleach"?

My memory seems to recall that it was a speculation about the source, since the hair coloring issue was raised, it could well have been a 'thought' that it was peroxide as opposed to a 'fact'.

I personally find it ODD that a hair coloring procedure would have been begun after 10 PM on Christmas night. IF IF IF I were JonBenets mother, I would have done the procedure BEFORE Christmas to have her look her best for the Holiday.

Disclaimer:
(I would not even consider coloring my own daughters hair for any reason whatsoever at the age 6)

Both peroxide and urine odors are pungent, both of these odors (urine and peroxide) would most likely have been foreign to a younger LE person, ?WE? donut know how old the first police people on the scene were either.

So IF Charlie Chan were writing potential clues to pursue on a blackboard, he would surely want to jot this one down for further review.

Major mistake by not bringing a scent dog ASAP to the house. The garrott would have helped in that immediate moment. It would have held the scent of the killer, who MIGHT have been found in the gathering of people who were being HELD on the main floor of the home. BEFORE JR was allowed to FIND the body .

.