The case for murder, #2

[K_Z]

Page 15 of the autopsy report:

Histology: Portions of tissues and major organs are retained in formalin. Sections of heart (1), liver (1), and endometrial polyp (1) are submitted for microscopic examination.

I would certainly think lungs are "major organs", along with kidneys, brain, etc. Only heart, liver, and endometrial polyp sections were submitted for microscopic exam.

I wonder how long specimens are retained by the ME's office? If lung sections are available, I would think the Zahau attorneys could request permission for their forensic expert/s to examine the specimen.

I think it would be quite interesting and relevant to see what a section of Rebecca's lung tissue shows, microscopically. We know what the physical damage to the neck was. She died of strangulation hanging, whether one thinks this is homicide or suicide. So I think it would be relevant to both sides to examine this in discovery for the civil case.

 

[Leomoon80]

Oh, I think the whole discussion of the lack of dust disturbance on the balcony alone leads one to conclude it could not have been suicide.

I also lean towards Nina not telling the truth about the light in the computer room. Doesn't fare well for the suicide theory.

I suspect someone entered that back door and Rebecca may have heard a disturbance or at some point realized someone was in the house and tried to run outside. There actually could have been one person who entered the back door and one who went around to the courtyard.

It never made sense to me that Rebecca took a shower in that computer room. And, so far, we don't have any proof anyone was on the computer around that specific time period.

Well, for the record, I always maintained it was a set up to look like a suicide, but all the science here that has been posted had me wondering whether or not the scientists who are forum members would agree with that theory.

Or are they leaning in the other direction.

Maybe there will be a poll taken later.

 

[Serpico]

Well, for the record, I always maintained it was a set up to look like a suicide, but all the science here that has been posted had me wondering whether or not the scientists who are forum members would agree with that theory.

Or are they leaning in the other direction.

Maybe there will be a poll taken later.

Seems you're the only one suggesting another direction.....overwhelmingly evidence suggests murder.

 

[Mr Spock]

Well, for the record, I always maintained it was a set up to look like a suicide, but all the science here that has been posted had me wondering whether or not the scientists who are forum members would agree with that theory.

Or are they leaning in the other direction.

Maybe there will be a poll taken later.

I think your onto a stroke of genius here. Wouldn't it be fascinating for a team of forensic psychiatrists and criminologists to take all of the evidence known in this case, brainstorm, and then present their theories at a professional conference?

 

[Leomoon80]

Seems you're the only one suggesting another direction.....overwhelmingly evidence suggests murder.

Which part of "I've always believed it was murder" did you not understand? i.e. "set up to look like a Suicide".

I thought I was clear.:banghead:

I never said or intimated EVER that I changed my mind either. :seeya:

 

[cynic]

Oh, I think the whole discussion of the lack of dust disturbance on the balcony alone leads one to conclude it could not have been suicide.

I agree.
A good bit of discussion relating to the balcony is over at the following thread:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149545"]The footprints/shoeprints on the balcony - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

I’ve copied over some text and pictures from my posts at the thread referenced above.

There are only 3 areas on the railing that are truly wiped clean as evidenced by a shiny black surface in each instance.

An approximately 3” area – from 18.25 to 21.25 inches on the “ruler.”
An approximately 1.25” area - from 27 to 28.25 inches on the “ruler.”
An approximately 1/2” area – from 32 to 32.5 inches on the “ruler.”

There is no area on the railing sufficiently wiped clean that would correspond with RN leaning over, and subsequently falling over, as law enforcement would have us believe.

I believe the 3” area might be explained by someone placing their hand on the railing.
Hand breadth:
In males, the right hand breadth varied from 7.30cm (2.87in) to 9.40cm (3.70in) (mean 8.45cm (3.33in) & SD 0.40)
and left hand breadth varied from 7.20cm (2.83in) to 9.40cm (3.70in) (mean 8.42cm (3.31in) & SD 0.40).
In females, the right hand breadth varied from 6.70cm (2.64in) to 8.80cm (3.46in) (mean 7.48cm (2.94in) & SD 0.38)
and left hand breadth varied from 6.60cm (2.60in) to 8.70cm (3.43in) (mean 7.42cm (2.92in) & SD 0.37).
http://ispub.com/IJFS/1/2/9047

The other two areas relate to the rope, as red fiber evidence is apparent on the outside edge of the railing.

 

[Serpico]

Which part of "I've always believed it was murder" did you not understand? i.e. "set up to look like a Suicide".

I thought I was clear.:banghead:

I never said or intimated EVER that I changed my mind either. :seeya:

I didn't suggest you changed your mind....my reference was directed to your comment about forum member scientists. I thought they made several key aspects more clear but more on HOW RZ died than anything else.

I'll try to do a better job articulating next time.

 

[Serpico]

I agree.
A good bit of discussion relating to the balcony is over at the following thread:
The footprints/shoeprints on the balcony - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

I’ve copied over some text and pictures from my posts at the thread referenced above.

There are only 3 areas on the railing that are truly wiped clean as evidenced by a shiny black surface in each instance.

An approximately 3” area – from 18.25 to 21.25 inches on the “ruler.”
An approximately 1.25” area - from 27 to 28.25 inches on the “ruler.”
An approximately 1/2” area – from 32 to 32.5 inches on the “ruler.”

There is no area on the railing sufficiently wiped clean that would correspond with RN leaning over, and subsequently falling over, as law enforcement would have us believe.

I believe the 3” area might be explained by someone placing their hand on the railing.
Hand breadth:
In males, the right hand breadth varied from 7.30cm (2.87in) to 9.40cm (3.70in) (mean 8.45cm (3.33in) & SD 0.40)
and left hand breadth varied from 7.20cm (2.83in) to 9.40cm (3.70in) (mean 8.42cm (3.31in) & SD 0.40).
In females, the right hand breadth varied from 6.70cm (2.64in) to 8.80cm (3.46in) (mean 7.48cm (2.94in) & SD 0.38)
and left hand breadth varied from 6.60cm (2.60in) to 8.70cm (3.43in) (mean 7.42cm (2.92in) & SD 0.37).
http://ispub.com/IJFS/1/2/9047

The other two areas relate to the rope, as red fiber evidence is apparent on the outside edge of the railing.

Thanks Cynic.....do you have a picture of the bottom of the railing? I was wondering if someone stretched their hand from the doorway to the railing they would've had to stretch a leg too.If there isn't any dust disturbance below the "hand-like" disturbance on the bottom of railing then it would seem there could only be 2 possibilities.
1-the LE with his footprint on the balcony also put his left hand on railing to look down.
2-someone approached the balcony railing from the OUTSIDE (courtyard) ....with the possible aid of a patio table top?
to

 

[time]

Just an odd thought, but since Rebecca's feet were bound and her hands were tied behind her back, I think it's possible someone put a long rigid stick under those (like a broom stick). It seems to me then they can easily tilt her body over the rail without touching much of anything. Her hip/boney part would easily serve as a fulcrum - or possibly a part of the stick itself. The stick could have been removed after the fact.

 

[time]

Well, for the record, I always maintained it was a set up to look like a suicide, but all the science here that has been posted had me wondering whether or not the scientists who are forum members would agree with that theory.

Or are they leaning in the other direction.

Maybe there will be a poll taken later.

Oh, I see. I just didn't want you to think I was proposing anything but murder! I'll let everyone else speak for themselves, but I suspect we are on the same page.

 

[bourne]

Well, for the record, I always maintained it was a set up to look like a suicide, but all the science here that has been posted had me wondering whether or not the scientists who are forum members would agree with that theory.

Or are they leaning in the other direction.

Maybe there will be a poll taken later.

From what I can tell, all the science experts on WS all lean towards the theory that Rebecca was murdered. I haven't seen a single science expert say otherwise.

What makes you think some are leaning towards suicide?

 

[bourne]

Just an odd thought, but since Rebecca's feet were bound and her hands were tied behind her back, I think it's possible someone put a long rigid stick under those (like a broom stick). It seems to me then they can easily tilt her body over the rail without touching much of anything. Her hip/boney part would easily serve as a fulcrum - or possibly a part of the stick itself. The stick could have been removed after the fact.

That's an interesting and creative take on the evidence! Using props like a stick never even crossed my mind. To me it sounds like too much work when the perps can simply push a bound/gagged Rebecca over.

 

[kittychi]

BBM

Change out JS to Gore, Gore to JS. (Gore went along with everything that came out of that JS Suicide Package).

Gore and his minions marched right in step behind JS.

JS absolutely knows what happened to Maxie. It's my contention he was there. As well as his teen-aged children and some of their friends. He also knows who painted his door, and who murdered Rebecca.

He directed both investigations. And yes, he will never veer from his carefully crafted story. As long as he's breathing he will never, ever, reveal what happened to the two people who are now dead.

He has two teen-agers he has to keep 'safe'. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he high-tailed himself and his teen-agers to Europe.

moo

Yes! Right down to Adam's "text" to him, and how about Adam's "got a girl hung herself" 911 call. Right down to the little white lie that IMO was told to police by JS about a late night phone call that cannot be proven by phone records. iMO never took place.

I was looking at early news footage trom the morning it happened, on You Tube. The overall tone suggested murder...neighbors even worried that a murderer could be on the loose. But police considered it isolated; at the time there were no suspects, but "police are considering everyone they've talked to, a witness." [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZa_lZ9D6b0"]Woman found dead hanging from the balcony in a Coronado mansion - YouTube[/ame]

Just what is JS hiding and why?

 

[Leomoon80]

From what I can tell, all the science experts on WS all lean towards the theory that Rebecca was murdered. I haven't seen a single science expert say otherwise.

What makes you think some are leaning towards suicide?

I asked only for clarification on the posts from the more scientific members here . A "yay or a nay" a murder or a suicide. I don't like to second guess others, it's never fair to do so. Therefore I simply ask when I have a question.

What their layman's opinion is beyond their very large, sometimes graphic posts most of the wording is quite medically unknown terms to the layman.

That's ALL I asked for, nothing more.

What is "their" opinion. Not yours or mine, nor others who aren't scientists, just their's alone. Suicide or murder?

I know what my opinion is already and I know I'm a layman with no expertise in medical sciences. Also, I think I explained myself enough here today. That's it for now. The curiosity has taken up enough of my time ....

 

[bourne]

I asked only for clarification on the posts from the more scientific members here . A "yay or a nay" a murder or a suicide. I don't like to second guess others, it's never fair to do so. Therefore I simply ask when I have a question.

What their layman's opinion is beyond their very large, sometimes graphic posts most of the wording is quite medically unknown terms to the layman.

That's ALL I asked for, nothing more.

What is "their" opinion. Not yours or mine, nor others who aren't scientists, just their's alone. Suicide or murder?

I know what my opinion is already and I know I'm a layman with no expertise in medical sciences. Also, I think I explained myself enough here today. That's it for now. The curiosity has taken up enough of my time ....

Hi Leomoon80! What's with the unhappy blue/purple face? No need to be sad. This is a friendly, happy forum where intelligent, rational people discuss cases

Anyhow, I was curious what made you think some scientists on WS were leaning towards suicide.

I think your poll is a good idea except there's no way to weed out non-scientists from taking the poll. Of course, you can always ask only the *verified* scientists to take the poll and trust that only the verified ones do. Otherwise, all WS posters (scientists or not) will be able to take part in the poll.

P.S. You may wish to know that there are quite a few of us so-called "laypeople" who earned science degrees but don't want to be verified for privacy concerns. :seeya:

 

[Serpico]

Yes! Right down to Adam's "text" to him, and how about Adam's "got a girl hung herself" 911 call. Right down to the little white lie that IMO was told to police by JS about a late night phone call that cannot be proven by phone records. iMO never took place.

I was looking at early news footage trom the morning it happened, on You Tube. The overall tone suggested murder...neighbors even worried that a murderer could be on the loose. But police considered it isolated; at the time there were no suspects, but "police are considering everyone they've talked to, a witness." Woman found dead hanging from the balcony in a Coronado mansion - YouTube

Just what is JS hiding and why?

I wish the Zahau family would release ALL materials they received thus far from Gore including Adam's SDSO interview along with the ENTIRE polygraph with Paul Redden.

There are just some glaring statements or non statements by Adam that I just can't dismiss. I think JS is hiding Adam's involvement.
================================
Adam's Statements,etc
-------------------------
1-volunteered he viewed *advertiser censored*....he said on his iphone but was that ever confirmed? Also, would like to know if Paul Redden asked Adam if he ever viewed *advertiser censored* on the computer in the 2nd floor guest room.
2- according to Ann Rule's book - page 179...Adam blurted out of the blue in CPD Mobile at 8:00am..."this is f'in crazy.I don't think my bedside manner is that bad -" I've never read anything if Adam had to explain that statement to SDSO investigators given he went to the guest house alone and awoke alone the next morning unless Adam was still feeling the negative reactions to Ambien that he took the night before.
3- Adam didn't immediately take the blue shirt GAG out of RZ's mouth ...all he had to do is reach up and take it out but he waited about 5 minutes until AFTER he got atop the patio table top and cut RZ down.He said he took the GAG out then performed CPR......RED FLAG IMO.
4-Adam's insistence of describing the shocking scene as a suicide from the get-go and NEVER called out to his brother when he entered the mansion to ensure he was either safe or not there. Adam couldn't be 100% certain that brother Jonah didn't come home that night and he certainly wouldn't have known that Jonah loaned his car out to a Romano at 9:00pm.
5-I've never read what Adam thought of the RZ rope knots as an experienced towboat deckhand and pilot operator.....obviously, not much given he thought suicide the moment he saw her hanging.
6-Adam said he had to grab the patio table top to cut RZ down but he didn't leave any Dirt Marks atop the table.....he left dirt marks in the mansion hallway before he grabbed the kitchen knife.
7-Adam's fingerprints/DNA was never mentioned being on the rope or blue shirt GAG. He never mentioned if he had gloves on.
8-Adam had neither 'passed" nor "failed" on the 4 lie detector charts. (Ann Rule-
pg.188}.

 

[bourne]

Yes! Right down to Adam's "text" to him, and how about Adam's "got a girl hung herself" 911 call. Right down to the little white lie that IMO was told to police by JS about a late night phone call that cannot be proven by phone records. iMO never took place.

I was looking at early news footage trom the morning it happened, on You Tube. The overall tone suggested murder...neighbors even worried that a murderer could be on the loose. But police considered it isolated; at the time there were no suspects, but "police are considering everyone they've talked to, a witness." Woman found dead hanging from the balcony in a Coronado mansion - YouTube

Just what is JS hiding and why?

Who is the LE spokesperson in the video? He made the BOGUS claim that the reason Rebecca's nude body could not be covered by a tent in *over 13 plus hours* is that "any movement of the body or any covering or anything else could disturb some very critical piece of evidence"! WTH This dude is a joke. Really?!

First of all, didn't Adam already disturb the crime scene by allegedly cutting Rebecca's down and performing CPR on her? Second, what about all the other tens of thousands of cases I've seen/heard/read wherein *immediately upon arrival* victims are covered by LE tents or even simply large cloths to prevent prying public eyes and helicopters and media? And the majority of those victims were clothed! :stormingmad:

 

[bourne]

I wish the Zahau family would release ALL materials they received thus far from Gore including Adam's SDSO interview along with the ENTIRE polygraph with Paul Redden.

There are just some glaring statements or non statements by Adam that I just can't dismiss. I think JS is hiding Adam's involvement.
================================
Adam's Statements,etc
-------------------------
1-volunteered he viewed *advertiser censored*....he said on his iphone but was that ever confirmed? Also, would like to know if Paul Redden asked Adam if he ever viewed *advertiser censored* on the computer in the 2nd floor guest room.
2- according to Ann Rule's book - page 179...Adam blurted out of the blue in CPD Mobile at 8:00am..."this is f'in crazy.I don't think my bedside manner is that bad -" I've never read anything if Adam had to explain that statement to SDSO investigators given he went to the guest house alone and awoke alone the next morning unless Adam was still feeling the negative reactions to Ambien that he took the night before.
3- Adam didn't immediately take the blue shirt GAG out of RZ's mouth ...all he had to do is reach up and take it out but he waited about 5 minutes until AFTER he got atop the patio table top and cut RZ down.He said he took the GAG out then performed CPR......RED FLAG IMO.
4-Adam's insistence of describing the shocking scene as a suicide from the get-go and NEVER called out to his brother when he entered the mansion to ensure he was either safe or not there. Adam couldn't be 100% certain that brother Jonah didn't come home that night and he certainly wouldn't have known that Jonah loaned his car out to a Romano at 9:00pm.
5-I've never read what Adam thought of the RZ rope knots as an experienced towboat deckhand and pilot operator.....obviously, not much given he thought suicide the moment he saw her hanging.
6-Adam said he had to grab the patio table top to cut RZ down but he didn't leave any Dirt Marks atop the table.....he left dirt marks in the mansion hallway before he grabbed the kitchen knife.
7-Adam's fingerprints/DNA was never mentioned being on the rope or blue shirt GAG. He never mentioned if he had gloves on.
8-Adam had neither 'passed" nor "failed" on the 4 lie detector charts. (Ann Rule-
pg.188}.

BBM. Adam stated in his polygraph video that he did *not* even notice whether Rebecca's hands were tied or not! Go figure!

 

[Serpico]

BBM. Adam stated in his polygraph video that he did *not* even notice whether Rebecca's hands were tied or not! Go figure!

Forgot about that.....makes you wonder if he ever really cut her down and hopped off the table to the courtyard grass. Geez...that perplexing statement - no AS fingerprint/dna on the rope - no dirty footprints atop the patio table - still no description given just how he and RZ got off the table to the courtyard grass - didn't immediately take the GAG out of her mouth when all he had to do is reach up.

 

[time]

That's an interesting and creative take on the evidence! Using props like a stick never even crossed my mind. To me it sounds like too much work when the perps can simply push a bound/gagged Rebecca over.

Hmm, I'm not sure if it would be more work or not...it's not so difficult to set up. It came to mind because Gore suggested Rebecca intentionally left the knots on her wrists loose, first tying them in front and then subsequently slipping her hands out and back in behind her back (BTW, I think this is ludicrous). I'm just suggesting also suggesting that using a stick/rod would possibly create less disturbance on the balcony and rail, or maybe the murderers could have thought so. It does appear that they had less disturbance in mind... although maybe it didn't take much pre-thinking, just the least steps and so forth as they were doing it.

IMO, the perps attempt to limit the dust is more to leave a lack of evidence than make it look like a suicide.