The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

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Ok I know this is something most people aren't familiar with, and those who are don't usually discuss it.....even as someone who has worked with children extensively, I've only encountered it once, but know of a second occurrence through a fellow teacher.

But I had a female student once, age 4/5, who had a sensory processing disorder, was highly intelligent, and happen to take to masturbating like some take to thumb sucking. Mostly she used this as a self sooth measure, and it's unlikely she related this to it being "sexual" but rather just pleasurable. Most occurrences were during nap time, and the first time was brutally awkward! And I'm not talking just feeling your privates, I'm talking red cheeks, painting, eye rolling. When she would get really stressed doing school work she would also sometimes touch herself during class with her fingers or even sometimes objects, like pencils etc. yes

I was reading the autopsy report, and thinking of this....and just considering that perhaps SOME of the evidence of abdnormal vaginal findings on JBR could have been self inflicted?
 
Ah, but if it makes perfect sense, then why is it that I read so many different versions from the posters here that are 100% convinced that Jonbenet died at the hands of her family.

Burke hit her on the head. John had been sexually molesting her and finally killed her to cover it up. Patsy killed her in a rage over bedwetting. Burke tied her up. John tied her up. Patsy tied her up. John wrote the letter. No, he dictated it. No, he slept through it while Patsy did it. Read the posts. There are so many versions, and thats one reason why I find it hard to make perfect sense out of it. If it makes perfect sense, it shouldn't be this muddled.

Staging by multiple people IS the reason it is muddied, and that is what makes perfect sense. But, you already knew that. You're just here as a contrarian.
 
Hi everyone,
I am new to WS. I have been following this case since way back when it happened. I just discovered this awesome site and have spent the past few days reading threads dating back years.
First off I always felt it was an inside job. I never believed an intruder came in. I did not know anything about Burke and his odd behavior until this week. It pretty much cemented for me that he was involved. I was literally shocked when the show ended, I felt that I had been slapped in the face. All this time it was right there! The show filled in missing pieces for me.
I remember watching the Ramsey's CNN interview in Jan 1997 and thinking that something was not right with either parent. John looked so nervous about what Patsy might say. I would love to watch that full interview again but I cannot find it. If anyone knows where I can view it I would greatly appreciate it.

My thoughts about what happened that night since watching the CBS special:
Burke got up and perhaps JB heard him or he woke her up so she followed him downstairs. We know this because JB had at least one piece of pineapple in her system. BR admits he went down there that night to play with a toy, but we know he was eating that pineapple too since the fingerprints -so that places both kids in the dining room downstairs, alone. I think Burke harmed her for whatever twisted reason he had, and went back to bed leaving JB downstairs. I do not have a theory on who found her although I believe that Burke was already back to sleep when the parents discovered her. Later after she was found, no one thought to clean up the snack and Patsy was not aware at that time that BR was up eating late night so she didn't know JB ate pineapple either. I'm sure that was a surprise to her when she found out from LE that JB had eaten some pineapple. Patsy simply overlooked the food and glass of tea once she found JB mortally wounded. There was no reason for her to worry about the bowl and glass at that time because the main cover up began. There was so much chaos with the staging and the RN all to protect the bad seed BR. The only person that knew what the pineapple meant was BR.

My kid is the same age as JB would be today. I was physically sickened after realizing that BR did this to his sister. I had no idea of the horrible things he had done to her already. It all makes sense now. That poor little girl deserved better.
 
Hi everyone,
I am new to WS. I have been following this case since way back when it happened. I just discovered this awesome site and have spent the past few days reading threads dating back years.
First off I always felt it was an inside job. I never believed an intruder came in. I did not know anything about Burke and his odd behavior until this week. It pretty much cemented for me that he was involved. I was literally shocked when the show ended, I felt that I had been slapped in the face. All this time it was right there! The show filled in missing pieces for me.
I remember watching the Ramsey's CNN interview in Jan 1997 and thinking that something was not right with either parent. John looked so nervous about what Patsy might say. I would love to watch that full interview again but I cannot find it. If anyone knows where I can view it I would greatly appreciate it.

My thoughts about what happened that night since watching the CBS special:
Burke got up and perhaps JB heard him or he woke her up so she followed him downstairs. We know this because JB had at least one piece of pineapple in her system. BR admits he went down there that night to play with a toy, but we know he was eating that pineapple too since the fingerprints -so that places both kids in the dining room downstairs, alone. I think Burke harmed her for whatever twisted reason he had, and went back to bed leaving JB downstairs. I do not have a theory on who found her although I believe that Burke was already back to sleep when the parents discovered her. Later after she was found, no one thought to clean up the snack and Patsy was not aware at that time that BR was up eating late night so she didn't know JB ate pineapple either. I'm sure that was a surprise to her when she found out from LE that JB had eaten some pineapple. Patsy simply overlooked the food and glass of tea once she found JB mortally wounded. There was no reason for her to worry about the bowl and glass at that time because the main cover up began. There was so much chaos with the staging and the RN all to protect the bad seed BR. The only person that knew what the pineapple meant was BR.

My kid is the same age as JB would be today. I was physically sickened after realizing that BR did this to his sister. I had no idea of the horrible things he had done to her already. It all makes sense now. That poor little girl deserved better.

Welcome Trixels! :wagon:
 
http://lawnewz.com/uncategorized/at...rt-accusing-burke-ramsey-of-killing-jonbenet/

re LW suit


@29:42


?: Burke Ramsey ....
What is his reaction?



LW: Well I have talked to Burke
since it aired.....
I have no problems in saying that
Burke did not watch it.
Burke is not, I'm sure for reasons
that are his own and reasons that
were John and Patsys........
He knows what this is
he didn't watch it
and He knows now what he's got to do.
Doing nothing is not an
acceptable option.
And so he is going to file this
lawsuit. BUT
I knew this was going to happen
and I talked to Burke about it before
it happened.
So nobody saw this and decided on
Monday morning or Tuesday morning.
'Oh Gosh Let's file a lawsuit',
I knew it was coming.
I was still shocked that CBS would make
this kind of a mistake....
 
From the Bonita Papers:

In August, the Boulder police department contacted Dr. John McCann, one of the nation’s leading experts on child sexual abuse. McCann had agreed to assist the police department in determining if JonBenet had been a victim of sexual abuse during or before her murder. McCann was sent the autopsy report and photos. According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet.

There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim. A generalized increase in redness of the tissues of the vestibule was apparent, and small red flecks of blood were visible around the perineum and the external surface of the genitalia. It was his opinion that the injury appeared to have been caused by a relatively small, very firm object which, due to the area of bruising, had made very forceful contact not only with the hymen, but also with the tissues surrounding the hymen. McCann believed that the object was forcefully jabbed in – not just shoved in. Although the bruised area would indicate something about the size of a finger nail, he did not believe it was a finger, because of the well demarcated edges of the bruise indicating an object much firmer than a finger. McCann was not able to see any fresh tears of the hymen which he thought might be due to the lack of detail in the photographs. It was unclear where the blood on the perineum originated, since there were no lacerations visible in these photos. McCann also noted that in children of this age group the labia, or vaginal lips, remain closed until literally manually separated. In order for there to be an injury to the hymen without injuring the labia, the labia would have to be manually separated before the object was inserted. The examination also indicated that the assault was done while the child was still alive because of the redness in the surrounding tissue and blood in the area.

McCann stated that this injury would have been very painful because the area of the injury as indicated by the bruise was at the base of the hymen were most of the nerve endings are located. Such an injury would have caused a six year old child to scream or yell. The doctor also stated that he assumed the object did not have jagged edges because there were no evidence of tears in the bruised area.

McCann also noted that there appeared to be a bruise on the inner right thigh which he though might represent a thumb imprint from forcing the legs apart.

Dr. McCann explained the term "chronic abuse" meant only that it was "repeated", but that the number of incidents could not be determined. In the case of JonBenet, the doctor could only say that there was evidence of “prior abuse". The examination results were evidence that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration. However, it was not possible to determine the number of incidents nor over what period of time. Because the prior injury had healed, any other incidents of abuse probably were more than 10 days prior.

In discussing perpetrators of sexual abuse on children, McCann stated that the majority of children this age are molested by someone with whom they have close contact most commonly family members. He explained that if the molester is a stranger or someone else with whom the child is not close, the child will usually tell someone or psychological problems appear which create behavior changes observed by their parents. Common symptoms would be eating disorders, nightmares or a variety of behaviors indicating that something is bothering them. Commencement or increased bedwetting is also commonly seen in sexually abused children. When asked about JonBenet's sexualized behavior during her pageant performances, McCann said that this was not necessarily a sign of abuse, since this was taught behavior for the pageants. Also, with children's exposure to sexually explicit television programs, sexualized behavior is no longer considered to be an indication of possible sexual abuse.

Dr. Andrew Sirotnack from Children’s Hospital in Denver was also asked to review the medical findings and autopsy photographs. He confirmed McCann's determination of acute vaginal trauma during the assault on JonBenet, but he had not yet concluded that there was chronic abuse. Sirotnack had examined over 2,500 abused children during his career at Children's Hospital and had testified in approximately 50 - 100 criminal trials regarding sexual abuse on children.

In September 1997, the police department held a meeting with McCann and three other child sexual abuse experts to go over their opinions based on their review of the autopsy results. Dr. Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida stated that she observed fresh hymeneal trauma on JonBenet and chronic inflammation that was not related to any urination issues. Dr. Rau said, “In my heart, this is chronic abuse,” but feared that a defense argument would be made that this was only evidence of masturbation.

Also agreeing with the findings of both McCann and Rau was Dr. Jim Monteleone of St. Louis. Dr. Richard Krugman, Dean of the University of Colorado Medical School, an expert first contacted for assistance in the Ramsey case by the D.A.’s office, was the most adamant supporter of the finding of chronic sexual abuse. He felt that in considering the past and present injuries to the hymen that the bedwetting/soiling took on enormous significance. He believed that this homicide was an indecent of “toilet rage” and subsequent cover up. He told the group of experts and detectives about another Colorado case where both parents had been at home and both were charged. “The JonBenet case is a text book example of toileting abuse rage," Krugman stated.

All of the experts agreed that there was no way any of the recent or chronic abuse damage to the genitalia of the child was the result of masturbation.

And later:

Dr. Bernhard felt there needed to be more follow-up with Burke in the discussion of sexual contact. The only show of emotion by Burke, other than the irritation with the questions about the actual crime, was when Dr. Bernhard began to ask about uncomfortable touching. Burke picked up a board game and put it on his head an action indicating anxiety or discomfort with these types of questions and that there was more that he was not telling her. Dr. Bernhard asked Burke if he had any secrets, and he said, “probably, if I did, I wouldn't tell you, because then it wouldn’t be a secret."

Amen. I read this too. There was evidence. That many experts have to know exactly what they see on a daily basis. Glad you found this and posted it! I forgot where I read it! Those Bonita Papers are very eye opening!
 
http://lawnewz.com/uncategorized/at...rt-accusing-burke-ramsey-of-killing-jonbenet/

re LW suit


@29:42


?: Burke Ramsey ....
What is his reaction?



LW: Well I have talked to Burke
since it aired.....
I have no problems in saying that
Burke did not watch it.
Burke is not, I'm sure for reasons
that are his own and reasons that
were John and Patsys........
He knows what this is
he didn't watch it
and He knows now what he's got to do.
Doing nothing is not an
acceptable option.
And so he is going to file this
lawsuit. BUT
I knew this was going to happen
and I talked to Burke about it before
it happened.
So nobody saw this and decided on
Monday morning or Tuesday morning.
'Oh Gosh Let's file a lawsuit',
I knew it was coming.
I was still shocked that CBS would make
this kind of a mistake....

So Burke didn't watch it, but automatically knows what he's got to do -- file a lawsuit. Presumably he is relying on what his attorney (Wood) told him about it, since he didn't watch it himself. I'm making a wild guess here that Burke also has not read a transcript of it or watched it via tape or online since the original CBS airing ... he hasn't ever read the RN, he says, so why would he read or watch about the CBS program? But he'll take someone else's word for it that he should sue. Interesting. I wonder if CBS can make anything out of that in court?
 
Can somebody please explain to me why there were two coke cans in the sink of Burke's bathroom? I know there is no way to know how long they had been there but I can't imagine it was long enough for Patsy not to notice them? Is it possible at all Burke and his dad or even JB drank coke in his bedroom that night? Still, with trash cans at convenient distance, why does anybody leave the cans in the sink?
 
And another thing. If something is said or alleged about you in a publication, and you allow that to go unchallenged for a lengthy period of time, you can't then suddenly decide much later to sue the writer/publisher for defamation and expect to win. If you felt it harmed you, then you participated in allowing the harm to go on and on before you finally said something to stop it. To the best of my knowledge, nearly all the information provided via the CBS program had been previously available in published books (Kolar's among them) and medical conclusions over a number of years -- had they previously been challenged via lawsuits by any Ramsey family members?
 
Well, looking at the rest of the house it makes sense to drop things wherever you wanted; these people were super messy. The kids probably did what they wanted, and the maid cleaned up after them. I was appalled at the clutter of that house, along with the gaudy furnishings. I know it was 20 yrs ago and styles have changed but the house decor was ugly.
 
Hi everyone, I'm new to WS, been lurking for a bit. This case has always fascinated me. What an amazingly informative site.

If anyone wants to look up the books being referred to upthread for themselves...

According to Kolar's book (info taken from a KoldKase post on the FFJ forum http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...-s-book-about-Ramsey-case&p=190985#post190985):

• The Hurried Child – Growing Up Too Fast, by David Elkind;
• Children at Risk, Dobson / Bruer;
• Why Johnny Can’t Tell Right From Wrong, Kilpatrick.


Edited to add: In my opinion, these books appear to be more about conservative Christian fear-mongering that moral values in society were degrading, how to protect your child from 'outside influences', the public school system etc.
 
Ok I know this is something most people aren't familiar with, and those who are don't usually discuss it.....even as someone who has worked with children extensively, I've only encountered it once, but know of a second occurrence through a fellow teacher.

But I had a female student once, age 4/5, who had a sensory processing disorder, was highly intelligent, and happen to take to masturbating like some take to thumb sucking. Mostly she used this as a self sooth measure, and it's unlikely she related this to it being "sexual" but rather just pleasurable. Most occurrences were during nap time, and the first time was brutally awkward! And I'm not talking just feeling your privates, I'm talking red cheeks, painting, eye rolling. When she would get really stressed doing school work she would also sometimes touch herself during class with her fingers or even sometimes objects, like pencils etc. yes

I was reading the autopsy report, and thinking of this....and just considering that perhaps SOME of the evidence of abdnormal vaginal findings on JBR could have been self inflicted?
I actually had a pediatric patient who had like 70+ seizures a day. I took care of her for a year in her home for 8-12 hours a day 5 days a week. She also had severe mental disabilities. She was about 2. She also masturbated constantly to self soothe. We constantly had to chart on it. She had nursing care 24/7. Since birth. So she had never been sexually assaulted. There never was a chance for anyone to do it either. She was under constant supervision by a nurse. It was just a natural soothing thing for her to do. She didn't receive pleasure like an adult would. But just as you described she did it during times of stress. Having so many seizures a day caused a lot of learning disabilities too. Although it is not often seen it can occur. I've witnessed it myself too. It is extremely awkward to witness. We couldn't even use any type of seat or chair that had an area between her legs that she could rub against or she would do it constantly. We actually were told by her doctor to use it as a cue that she needed her as needed medications to relieve stress. She had multiple types of seizures and we had to chart on each one in detail. Certain ones were proceeded by this behavior.
With seizures in mind, I wonder if JonBenet was having seizure activity after her head injury and possibly that was the reason for the garrote. It could also explain any of the extra scratches on her body. Major seizures are hard to witness and very violent. Just a thought though.
MOO.
 
I disagree with that, someone could have still entered the house for sexual deviancy. Women with housemates have been raped and killed. This was a 7k squarefoot home--huge. Perhaps the wouldbe killer was homeless or had a wife, and so in house was the best option.

how did the homeless guy know what JR's bonus was ? and how did he know his phone number to call him for the money ?
 
There are so many unanswered questions re this. Did the officers who checked the basement report seeing a broken window? Did they notice the suitcase underneath.?

If JR broke the window to point at an intruder why didn't he IMMEDiATELY call Arndt to show it to her?

He brought it up how many months later?Why??

dosen't matter IMO the RN sinks the Ramsey's ship, they did the cover up I have little doubt- as to how she died we will never know. If Burkey did it,then he gets a mulligan cause he was too young to charge, they just saved him time in the juvy nuthouse and they also saved alot of face
 
Hi everyone,
I am new to WS. I have been following this case since way back when it happened. I just discovered this awesome site and have spent the past few days reading threads dating back years.
First off I always felt it was an inside job. I never believed an intruder came in. I did not know anything about Burke and his odd behavior until this week. It pretty much cemented for me that he was involved. I was literally shocked when the show ended, I felt that I had been slapped in the face. All this time it was right there! The show filled in missing pieces for me.
I remember watching the Ramsey's CNN interview in Jan 1997 and thinking that something was not right with either parent. John looked so nervous about what Patsy might say. I would love to watch that full interview again but I cannot find it. If anyone knows where I can view it I would greatly appreciate it.

My thoughts about what happened that night since watching the CBS special:
Burke got up and perhaps JB heard him or he woke her up so she followed him downstairs. We know this because JB had at least one piece of pineapple in her system. BR admits he went down there that night to play with a toy, but we know he was eating that pineapple too since the fingerprints -so that places both kids in the dining room downstairs, alone. I think Burke harmed her for whatever twisted reason he had, and went back to bed leaving JB downstairs. I do not have a theory on who found her although I believe that Burke was already back to sleep when the parents discovered her. Later after she was found, no one thought to clean up the snack and Patsy was not aware at that time that BR was up eating late night so she didn't know JB ate pineapple either. I'm sure that was a surprise to her when she found out from LE that JB had eaten some pineapple. Patsy simply overlooked the food and glass of tea once she found JB mortally wounded. There was no reason for her to worry about the bowl and glass at that time because the main cover up began. There was so much chaos with the staging and the RN all to protect the bad seed BR. The only person that knew what the pineapple meant was BR.

My kid is the same age as JB would be today. I was physically sickened after realizing that BR did this to his sister. I had no idea of the horrible things he had done to her already. It all makes sense now. That poor little girl deserved better.
Hi and Welcome! :seeya:
I agree about her being shocked by the pineapple. In my opinion when the detectives told her that her fingerprints were on the bowl that was the ONLY time she truly seemed surprised and her whole demeanor changed. Burke had the same reaction when he was showed the picture of the bowl and glass. He looked extremely uncomfortable.
 
Yes they were messy. Is it possible Burke drank both cans and the caffeine kept him up, hence going downstairs? But then drinking tea too, he would have needed to be very thirsty. I just find those cans odd.
 
Hi everyone, I'm new to WS, been lurking for a bit. This case has always fascinated me. What an amazingly informative site.

If anyone wants to look up the books being referred to upthread for themselves...

According to Kolar's book (info taken from a KoldKase post on the FFJ forum http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...-s-book-about-Ramsey-case&p=190985#post190985):

• The Hurried Child – Growing Up Too Fast, by David Elkind;
• Children at Risk, Dobson / Bruer;
• Why Johnny Can’t Tell Right From Wrong, Kilpatrick.


Edited to add: In my opinion, these books appear to be more about conservative Christian fear-mongering that moral values in society were degrading, how to protect your child from 'outside influences', the public school system etc.
Hi and welcome!! :seeya: Thank you for the book titles!
 
According to the ransom note, the intruders or kidnappers were long gone. So it's safe to say he was totally safe and secure in his room especially with all the folks downstairs

If it was my son, I would have held him tight comforting him and reassuring him of being safe. I would have also been tearfully grateful, that he was unharmed..

------------------------------------
BBM

'the intruders or kidnappers were long gone'

How so?

-Nin
 
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