The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[ThinkHard]

Is that how you pronounce it in the States? I would say 'Paw/Poor' �� (we have a surname Pugh which is pronounced Pew...)

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I'm not 100% sure on the pronunciation. Either way, terrible name. Sounds like a child's toy either way.

 

[jslk]

I'm not 100% sure on the pronunciation. Either way, terrible name. Sounds like a child's toy either way.

Tbh it's taking me a while to catch on atm.... I kept forgetting that Lin Wood is a male not a female 😳

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[Tortoise]

Respectfully I disagree. I don't see an ME writing abrasion if he felt it was a burn, at least not without specify abrasion from burn. the skin being scraped vs being burned would have distinguishing characteristics that I don't think an ME would miss. I'm sure he had to be familiar with cigarette burns on abused children given his line of work, and would have recognized it as such, and thus it would be noted.

Looking at photos though, to my eye it looks more like a bruise then an abrasion, like someone poked her there really hard. But if the ME write abrasion then there must have been some broken skin. Other wise I think he would have written contusion.

It doesn't look like a burn though, as it would show more blistering type injury.

Btw burn ps usually don't bleed even when someone is still alive, because burns have a cotarizing effect.

Cigarette burns on live abused children would not look the same as burns inflicted post mortem.

I've looked it up, burns inflicted after death are not demarcated by red lines and they don't blister/produce pus. I'm not sure why you've mentioned bleeding.

ETA - Plus we have abrasions noted on her lower back. That didn't stop experts from pronouncing that these were burns produced by a stun gun.

 

[Heymom]

Is that how you pronounce it in the States? I would say 'Paw/Poor' �� (we have a surname Pugh which is pronounced Pew...)

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Paw, not pooh.

 

[Heymom]

I originally found the JacquesX story at acandyrose too. But what I read didn't say anything about them returning it in a few days. Surely no one would expect Jacques1 to get the potty training thing down in "a few days".

From http://www.acandyrose.com/s-linda-wilcox.htm


Is there more about Jacques on acandyrose?

This speaks to the kind of deception that was normal for Patsy. Instead of facing the dog's problems head-on, (we don't know if he was just a bad puppy-mill puppy, or if Burke had kicked him or something else) and teaching her children about death, she just takes him to the vet for disposal and brings home another dog. I'm sure if she'd been able to replace JBR in the same way, she'd have done so. After all, the one she had before was broken (lying cold and stiff under the Christmas tree) and family life had to go on....

 

[MaryMac250]

Considering that Burke had spent a good part of the day at the White's house, and that Fleet was right behind John when John "discovered" the body of JonBenet, it was vitally important that the lawyers find out what Fleet had seen & possibly what Burke had said/done.

Uh, ok, but also "vitally important" for the police to know. Not quite gettin your angle on this. One thing for sure it did was inform the defense on how to structure the Ramseys story. Yes! They is the job of the defense, but a heinous crime was committed for which LE was called in....so, why not let LE do its job. I do get sooo tired of this bending over backwards to rationalize what was done by the Ramseys and their lawyers to essentially sacrifice this 6-year old child. Nauseating!

 

[RL2]

Google "the kiss of death" and patricia paugh/patricia ramsey...

Interestingly enough, PR wrote a drama monologue entitled "The Kiss of Death" and presented in during the televised Miss America pageant in which she represented WV... She won a scholarship (according to her own police interview) for the talent portion.

In a 2000 interview transcript w Katie Couric to promote their book, DOI, JR states "that fact was probably the KISS OF DEATH to police."

At the end of this very loooooong interview (which I think must have been in nightly installments or something) Couric asks the Ramseys if they think that this case will ever be solved. JR states something to the effect that yes, it will probably be solved by people who will "LISTEN and THINK" ...

I feel like there are MANY Freudian slips, along with deliberate phrases and statements mentioned by JR in interviews through the years that "clue" you in to what might have happened.

Any thoughts?

 

[MaryMac250]

Ugh! I listened to this.

FW does not buy the intruder theory. He and PW have fought for years to have the NK investigation documents released as well at the entire 18 pages of the GJ Rue Bill all to no avail.

FW and PW suggest to JR and PR that they must return to Boulder from Atlanta after the funeral which conflicted with what the Ramsey lawyers were advising. Bot PR and JR stated that they were not going to return to CO.

Neither FW nor PW knew anything about the CNN interview until a few minutes before the car arrived to transport PR and JR to the studio.

Once back in Boulder, the Ramseys never spoke to the Whites again but did cast suspicion their way.

They just want to know what happened to JonBenet.

Most of the interview is about tabloid sensationalism of the story and how 2 DA's avoided saying or doing anything other than look for an intruder under every rock.

I would recommend those serious sleuthers listen to the Peter Boyles interview. A huge thanks to the poster of this info. Google it or look back for the URL. Maybe we need to be working on the timeline for organizing the Ramsey defense building. Sure would like to see those initial Ramsey phone records.

 

[Nick No Nora]

In re-thinking about the digestion timeline, I'm starting to think the pineapple-snatching theory is doable. In fact, if pineapple takes 90 minutes to 2-ish to digest, and if she died 45 minutes to 2 hours after the head blow, then there's a lot of overlap in there.

 

[ThinkHard]

Cigarette burns on live abused children would not look the same as burns inflicted post mortem.

I've looked it up, burns inflicted after death are not demarcated by red lines and they don't blister/produce pus. I'm not sure why you've mentioned bleeding.

ETA - Plus we have abrasions noted on her lower back. That didn't stop experts from pronouncing that these were burns produced by a stun gun.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one, were clearly not seeing the same info the same way. No harm in that of course, but we probably won't get anywhere by debating it further.

 

[Tortoise]

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one, were clearly not seeing the same info the same way. No harm in that of course, but we probably won't get anywhere by debating it further.

That's fine if you don't want to comment on my points.

 

[MaryMac250]

Well, technically, they TRIED to interview Fleet before he talked to the police, but it didn't happen. On the 27th Fleet talked to the police and then he talked to the Ramsey lawyers and PI, who of course grilled him on everything he told the police. One of the more valuable portions of Kolar's book imo was his analysis of the Ramseys' lawyering up timeline (see: Red Flags and Behavioral Clues). Because they and Bynum always claimed that it wasn't until Eller was threatening to "ransom the body" (which couldn't have been until the 28th at least) that they formally lawyered up with Haddon, and that Bynum just HAPPENED to show up at the Fernies' house with food on the evening of the 27th when detectives were trying to set up formal interviews with the Ramseys. And Bynum just happened to find something hinky in the detectives' request or whatever and stepped in to say that no way would the Ramseys be interviewed. Isn't it convenient how nothing the Ramseys do is ever their fault? They didn't refuse, their friend and Dr. Beuf (calling himself Patsy's doctor and claiming she was too drugged up to participate, which was probably accurate) did!

JR told Smit in 98 that it was that evening, the 27th, that Bynum took him aside and asked if it was okay for him to do some legally necessary things, ie call Haddon. So: it was all Bynum's idea, it never even occurred to him he'd need a lawyer.

And then in The Other Side of Suffering he says that he received a call from an employee on the 27th (aka the day the autopsy was being done and possible sexual abuse to JB was discovered) saying that a source within the police department had warned them the BPD was out to get JR and he needed to get a good defense attorney stat. So, it wasn't all Bynum's idea after all?

And yet there's Fleet White getting called BY MIKE BYNUM (lol, I thought he was supposed to be off skiing somewhere? Swear I read that.) just hours after the body was found on the 26th asking for him to talk. And then the next morning (the 27th) after talking to the cops he is asked by Bynum to meet with lawyers from Haddon and the PI later that afternoon. So all that crap the Ramseys fed the press about "needing" to lawyer up after the BPD was supposedly refusing to release the body because THAT'S when they realized the BPD was out to get them is a total crock.

Also, PositiveLight, thank you so much for your recaps of the CBS special and your continuing effort to improve the transcript. I've found what you've done already to be incredibly useful and can't wait to add the rest of your work to my files. I really appreciate what you're doing!

The information you reference here is mostly from the Kolar book? That is considered secondary source information...since it came through Kolar. The Peter Boyles interview information, for Fleet's part is primary information...that is, from the original source, Mr. Fleet. The book was published in 2012?, yes, I have the updated e-version. The interview was done Dec. 2014.

P.S., I am reluctant to believe anything Smit says.

Again, though, Bynum showing up when detectives were trying to schedule interviews. WTF?! Detectives didn't see that as a problem? Oh, yeah, he brought food....well, that explains it. Beware Greeks bearing gifts?

 

[ThinkHard]

That's fine if you don't want to comment on my points.

I hope you know that wasn't meant to come across as snarky, I was just trying to say regarding that topic I still disagree with the conclusion that those marks are cigar burns and that I don't think if the ME thought they were he would have written abrasions. and your information didn't convince me otherwise....I'm not an expert on burns though so it just felt futile to argue otherwise.

Again I really wasn't trying to be snarky. I respect your posts very much.

 

[MaryMac250]

Well, technically, they TRIED to interview Fleet before he talked to the police, but it didn't happen. On the 27th Fleet talked to the police and then he talked to the Ramsey lawyers and PI, who of course grilled him on everything he told the police. One of the more valuable portions of Kolar's book imo was his analysis of the Ramseys' lawyering up timeline (see: Red Flags and Behavioral Clues). Because they and Bynum always claimed that it wasn't until Eller was threatening to "ransom the body" (which couldn't have been until the 28th at least) that they formally lawyered up with Haddon, and that Bynum just HAPPENED to show up at the Fernies' house with food on the evening of the 27th when detectives were trying to set up formal interviews with the Ramseys. And Bynum just happened to find something hinky in the detectives' request or whatever and stepped in to say that no way would the Ramseys be interviewed. Isn't it convenient how nothing the Ramseys do is ever their fault? They didn't refuse, their friend and Dr. Beuf (calling himself Patsy's doctor and claiming she was too drugged up to participate, which was probably accurate) did!

JR told Smit in 98 that it was that evening, the 27th, that Bynum took him aside and asked if it was okay for him to do some legally necessary things, ie call Haddon. So: it was all Bynum's idea, it never even occurred to him he'd need a lawyer.

And then in The Other Side of Suffering he says that he received a call from an employee on the 27th (aka the day the autopsy was being done and possible sexual abuse to JB was discovered) saying that a source within the police department had warned them the BPD was out to get JR and he needed to get a good defense attorney stat. So, it wasn't all Bynum's idea after all?

And yet there's Fleet White getting called BY MIKE BYNUM (lol, I thought he was supposed to be off skiing somewhere? Swear I read that.) just hours after the body was found on the 26th asking for him to talk. And then the next morning (the 27th) after talking to the cops he is asked by Bynum to meet with lawyers from Haddon and the PI later that afternoon. So all that crap the Ramseys fed the press about "needing" to lawyer up after the BPD was supposedly refusing to release the body because THAT'S when they realized the BPD was out to get them is a total crock.

Also, PositiveLight, thank you so much for your recaps of the CBS special and your continuing effort to improve the transcript. I've found what you've done already to be incredibly useful and can't wait to add the rest of your work to my files. I really appreciate what you're doing!

The interview info conflicts with a lot of what you say here...or say Fleet says. On one point though, the 12/26 date abt Mike Bynum, I believe it is Priscilla who brings this up, Fleet, seems to assent. Anyway, he does not dispute what she says.

Have you listened to the Boyles interview?

 

[Tortoise]

I hope you know that wasn't meant to come across as snarky, I was just trying to say regarding that topic I still disagree with the conclusion that those marks are cigar burns and that I don't think if the ME thought they were he would have written abrasions. and your information didn't convince me otherwise....I'm not an expert on burns though so it just felt futile to argue otherwise.

Again I really wasn't trying to be snarky. I respect your posts very much.

Thank you, no I didn't think you were being snarky.

 

[Luckymanuh]

Cigarette burns on live abused children would not look the same as burns inflicted post mortem.

I've looked it up, burns inflicted after death are not demarcated by red lines and they don't blister/produce pus. I'm not sure why you've mentioned bleeding.

ETA - Plus we have abrasions noted on her lower back. That didn't stop experts from pronouncing that these were burns produced by a stun gun.

Abrasions to me would be like a rug burn. Not a cut but possibly the top layer of skin damaged. IMHO.

 

[PositiveLight]

The autopsy report specifically states it's an abrasion. I'd think the ME could tell the difference btw an burn mark and an abrasion.

true true it does say that!
I was just saying I could see him doing that. That it wouldn't shock me if he did. The wounds do look different imho but probably from the same object. It it was the train track, he may have just put more pressure on one tip of the track than the other.

 

[Nick No Nora]

I wonder if John Ramsey will put together any TV specials on this case in response to the CBS one? Of course there was the A&E special but that aired before. The HLN special (this Friday) looks to be pro-Ramsey. They are looking at Santa McReynolds as the possible perp. Also bringing back Linda Hoffman Pugh as a possiblity. Is John behind it? It's been announced on Paula Woodward's website for a while now...It's possible John is behind both A&E and HLN...one to air before CBS, the other to air afterwards.

It's funny how RDI always chooses a dead person whose DNA can't be tested. The thing is, if there was an intruder there that night, the most likely candidate is/was Gary Oliva. By far. Yet I take it his DNA didn't match the DNA that's basically the only evidence of an intruder, correct?

 

[PositiveLight]

When did JacquesX start living at the neighbors? Was it Jacques1 who moved next door or Jacques2?

Not quite sure but if I was to guess, I think it may have been the second one. Didn't he live with them for the rest of his life after the Ramsey's moved?
I have to wonder now, if the whole reason that Jacques went to live with the neighbors was due to Burke. MOO

 

[PositiveLight]

Tbh it's taking me a while to catch on atm.... I kept forgetting Lin Wood is a male not a female 

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Hahahahaha He does act like a female!:laughing: