The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[LisaB]

The RN specifically said they were being monitored in case they got the money early, but that JBR would be BEHEADED if they called anyone. I would have expected them to be very low-key in contacting anyone. If they believed the note, they would have known it was too late to get the money ("and hence" JonBenet) once police had arrived (as it would cause the small foreign faction to kill her immediately). Sending someone else to get the money would also show that they had contacted people. If you were told NOT to contact anyone and that you WERE being watched, wouldn't you try to keep the police and your friends away from the house (even if you called them)? You could have an officer meet you at the bank or something rather than risk your daughter's life.

 

[johnjay]

No, I know it's unlikely, but if he does, you should be his PR person. That's sounds perfect!

Well Burke, if you're "listening carefully", I'm available to be your PR man. We'll tour the world blaming mommy, daddy and Lin Wood's for the cover-up. And build a whole new image for you. The brilliant eccentric computer geek that had a few issues when he was young because of - well it's always the mother's fault! You can explain how years of therapy repaired the damage done by a superficially perfectionist mother and absentee father. Why sweat over code when you can make bundles at speaking engagements. You can be the poster boy for the need for better youth mental health care in America - and this will be a fine way to honor the memory of JonBenet.

 

[LisaB]

Aking,
Its fairly common I have it regularly, using condensed milk, very tasty. You can use other fruits too, but the natural sweetness of the pineapple ads to the flavor.

i disagree with Kolar and think it was JonBenet who was snacking at the breakfast bar. BR would not need the serving bowl, he would just need to fetch from the fridge and eat.

He probably had a cup of tea and cookies while JonBenet snacked on the pineapple. It was Christmas so both children were up to all sorts of tricks to enjoy themselves, away from the boring adults?

.

Why does Patsy deny making JBR the snack? Would she have been able to fix it herself? I know she could open the clamshell package of fruit, but what about the can of condensed milk?

 

[Heymom]

The RN specifically said they were being monitored in case they got the money early, but that JBR would be BEHEADED if they called anyone. I would have expected them to be very low-key in contacting anyone. If they believed the note, they would have known it was too late to get the money ("and hence" JonBenet) once police had arrived (as it would cause the small foreign faction to kill her immediately). Sending someone else to get the money would also show that they had contacted people. If you were told NOT to contact anyone and that you WERE being watched, wouldn't you try to keep the police and your friends away from the house (even if you called them)? You could have an officer meet you at the bank or something rather than risk your daughter's life.

They did the EXACT OPPOSITE and called over 2 couples plus their pastor! It would almost seem as though they *wanted* JonBenet to be beheaded! (If we didn't know that Patsy wrote that ransom letter, of course.)

 

[Karinna]

Personally I have a great deal of empathy for Burke. I see him as a scared, hurt, confused, frustrated, and angry boy who didn't get the support he so desperately needed. But that doesn't make me any less objective to this case. I don't think seeing Burke as a human being, means that one is being blinded to what he was capable of

I agree, and think BR was a product of his environment. And we also don't really know for certain what exactly BR was responsible for in the death of his sister?

 

[Karinna]

I can see PR as a verbal abuser, possibly physical abuse, but I do not see her as a sexual predator. I just don't see her getting a high from that, her highs came from attention and adoration.

What was her flip side? Superficial appearances to the public and the R's to their friends & family don't really mean much IMO, what happens behind closed doors when no one else is around?

 

[LisaB]

If true it is an extreme act by a very unstable individual.

We have a 9 year old smashing his sister's skull in. Then he dragging her downstairs, after taping her mouth with duct tape, by the neck using a rope and some stick. Since no-one has mentioned violent behavior in him prior, its all escalated pretty quickly. Not that I'm doubting you.

I guess we have different definitions of "violent". If my 8 year old whacked my 5 year old in the face with a golf club, I would consider that "violent". Burke did that a year prior to the murder.

 

[LisaB]

I have asked for actual evidence that ties any of the family to the murder. Not one answer. Because there is none. So I'm hardly grasping at straws looking at other angles, am I?

You do it: put forward actual real evidence tying in one of the family into JB's killing. Strong evidence, as you say.

There is the lack of evidence that anyone came through the window, the conversation picked up after Patsy THOUGHT she had hung up the phone, the WEIRD-*advertiser censored* ransom note, Burke's odd demeanor being interviewed, inconsistent statements about the origin of the flashlight and the too-big panties, etc.

 

[LisaB]

I haven't kept up with the JBR threads here at Websleuths in forever.
It wasn't until I started hearing the rumblings of Docuseries/Movies, etc that would be coming up for the 20th anniversary of JBR's death that I ventured back to these forums.
Great to see so many familiar names from years ago!

I am going to share a theory that's been in my brain for several years.
Watching the TV shows about JBR murder have only intensified my thoughts.

What I need from all of you Websleuth JBR experts is to de-bunk my thoughts so that I can move on with more realistic theories about JBR's murder.

Being it's been years since I've followed the JBR threads I have forgotten so many names of the key players.
Outside of PR and JR, who would you think would be the closest person to BR?
Someone he trusted.....teen or adult.....to open up to, vent to, discuss things happening around him/behind closed doors of the mansion that he didn't like, etc.

What I'm getting at..........and please don't roll your eyes too hard at my idea of what happened. I know it's way out there.

What if PR and JR are actually innocent of knowing that JBR was dead in the WC?
What if everything happened that night as it's been speculated here on the board and on the 2-part Docustory.

JBR comes down stairs, and in a bratty neener, neener style grabs pineapple out of BR's bowl and runs. From the latest information coming out, sounds like BR had some anger/rage inssues.
A chase ensues with JBR running down toward the basement and BR following close behind.
BR would have already been caught up to JBR in this chase but he stopped to grab the longest-reach and heaviest object he could to 'pay back' JBR for touching and taking his pineapple.


Everything happens down in the basement/wine cellar as speculated EXCEPT.....
What if JR and PR stayed asleep?
What if this some say 'sneaky' almost 10 year old saw what he did, realized it was more serious than just konking his sister hard over the head for taking his pineapple and after some panic, makes a phone call to a teen or adult he knows will help him out of this situation?
Who was considered BR's sort of mentor back then? Someone who would be able to come over and BR unlock and open the front door for that person or persons?
One or two people rushing over in the wee hours of the morning to 'help' BR out of this predicament? They probably got to the mansion without knowing just how serious the situation was.

Yes, JR found JBR rather quickly when told to go check the house again. Could it be that while all the commotion of people in the house was going on, JR was quietly going through things in his mind and a light bulb moment happened where he realized there was only one correct answer to who did this?
Maybe he saw the bowl of pineapple.....anything could have triggered his light bulb moment and at that moment he realized one of BR's favorite hiding places or places where he liked to be alone was in the wine cellar and JR took it from there.

Having a lot of teens around me daily, ages 14 - 19, I can see a couple teens or even young adults concocting the whole ransom scenario......and especially composing that RN with all the movie quote references.

I just can't get the idea out of my head that all the staging looks more like it was done by one or two older teens or young adults than it would be done by parents who supposedly loved that little girl.

I'm not saying the parents didn't do all that staging but I am hoping you all can help me de-bunk my idea about BR calling someone to the home to help him with the mess he got himself into.

If you've read my short novel here, thank you!

My biggest problem here is the note. Do adults tell their fourth graders how much their bonus was? Who wrote the note in writing so similar to Patsy's?

 

[Karinna]

Who on earth chokes a little girl with a freakin garotte FGS? I don't think i have ever heard of such an evil thing before when a child is murdered? I know some poor murder victims are strangled, but not garroted. She was just a tiny little girl. Why would someone even dream up such a thing? I think out of this whole case that stands out the most to me. It's just horrific really.

 

[TexMex]

IMO Burke's issues began/were triggered when he was "abandoned" at age 5-6 while his mother was very sick dealing with ovarian cancer and his father working and worried about his wife.
Once the cancer went into remission and his beautiful mother felt better, what happens? Mom turns her focus to the little sister! There's pageants, dancing and singing lessons, dress fittings, hair and nail appointments. The young boy who worried, cried and prayed for his mom to get better was sidelined for his sister who was walking around in diapers while he had been so invested in just wanting his mom to be ok and live.
JMO

 

[LisaB]

If the kidnapping was "botched" you don't take the time to stage the body- you certainly don't leave the 3 page ransome note with the treasure trove of clues that can lead back to you.

Why are the kidnappers- the group of individuals back in the basement- at all if you are there to kidnap her? You walk out the front door- it was the middle of the night? The parents are on the 3rd floor for god sake. You've left the note on the stairs- you have Jonbenet out of her bed.

Not buying what you're selling here- not many people will. Been there- done that... for years here.

I have randomly chosen this post to ask about the suitcase.
For a long time I was thinking the claim was that the intruder had stepped down onto the suitcase to enter the basement. When I saw the crime scene photos of the location, I realized it was placed there (theoretically to give the intruder something to step up on to get back out the window) after they (he/she) entered, and was NOT the spot the suitcase was stored (conveniently) where a step down into the room was needed. But if an adult could barely get IN through the window, they would realize before they ever moved the suitcase into place to create their exit that they were not going to be able to leave through the window while carrying a struggling child. Even if the child was NOT struggling, trying to get up onto the suitcase (not the most stable choice... a chair would have made more sense, or a box) with the 40-50 pound child, and out via the window would be darn near impossible, and just way more effort than was needed as there were plenty of doors they could exit from (unless they really were unfamiliar with the home and thought the doors were alarmed). So they would never have PUT the suitcase there. If there were two intruders, one could have passed the child to the other via the window prior to using the suitcase to climb out, but this reintroduces the question about why two adults were not able to subdue and remove her (alive or dead) in the night.

 

[TeaTime]

Well the cop went in there with a flashlight and saw him in bed I recall.

in bed or just laying on it pretending to sleep?

and did that cop notice what BR was wearing? bet not

FWIW, FW made the bed while JR helped BR get dressed to leave the house.

 

[johnjay]

I feel like we have heard the housekeeper complain (long ago) that they often just shoved stuff in the basement and forgot about it.

Doesn't everybody do that?

 

[LisaB]

"Patsy's claims that, while he was okay with pineapple, he would have found chocolate instead."

Sorry... I had this in my copy & paste buffer and forgot who said it. But, if they were trying to cover for Burke, it would be reasonable to say he did not like pineapple to "distance" him from the bowl on the table that nobody thought to dump while staging the scene. So she picked something vastly different, chocolate, and said that was his favorite snack. As a mom, I know that even if my kid preferred chocolate, I would not be likely to give it as a bedtime snack (caffeine? sugar?) and would suggest fruit. Nobody is going to contradict the Ramsey's if they say Burke did not usually eat pineapple, since the child they say DID like pineapple is not able to answer questions anymore.

The photo of the soda cans in Burke's sink does have me wondering what parents regularly let their kid consume that much sugary, caffeinated soda...

 

[Tortoise]

Who on earth chokes a little girl with a freakin garotte FGS? I don't think i have ever heard of such an evil thing before when a child is murdered? I know some poor murder victims are strangled, but not garroted. She was just a tiny little girl. Why would someone even dream up such a thing? I think out of this whole case that stands out the most to me. It's just horrific really.

I think it was staged specifically to make it look like the work of a monster. After all, who would suspect parents of being able to do that to their own child? It was done to cast suspicion outside the home.

Further, I think whoever strangled thought she was already dead :-

[FONT=&amp]16 LOU SMIT: Do you think that the[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]17 head injury occurred at the same place as the[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]18 other injuries, say with the literature?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]19 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean it's just no[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]20 reason to -- to know that. I mean I guess --[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]21 well, like I say, I just -- that's very[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]22 difficult to think about and imagine, but I[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]23 wondered whether the head injury didn't kill her[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]24 and after that they strangled her.

(NB When Lou Smit says literature I think that is a transcription error and he said ligature)

You see there is no logical reason for John to say this. Why strangle someone who's already been killed?[/FONT]

 

[Karinna]

Doesn't everybody do that?

Not me, i don't have a basement,

 

[LisaB]

There is more that points to the Ramseys as being accessories after the fact than any imagined intruder theory. As for the ransom note, consider this:

NEVER in the history of the FBI has there been a kidnapping/ransom note where the RN was prepared on site; and
NEVER in the history of the FBI has there been a kidnapping/ransom note where the victim was found murdered at the abduction site.

Contemplate these facts and then add that the note was on PR's pad, with her pen, in her penmanship. Add all of the other oddities explained by experts on kidnapping and ransom crimes that can be found on this site and in books written by those in the know - too numerous to recount here - and if you conclude that an intruder wrote it, then you have just disregarded the evidence that exists.

You can bet that Burke was instructed to not speak about what happened and that the Whites, being normal and sensitive people would not interrogate him. The people the Ramseys were afraid to let Burke speak to were the investigators who would interrogate him with pertinent questions and hustling out of the house was the only way to prevent this. Burke has not spoken to LE since he was 11.

The pineapple is easy to recognize in the photo. You must have had a blurred photo image. Burke shut down when he saw it after uttering an very odd "oh". He kneeled on his hands on the chair at the sight of the bowl of pineapple. He wasn't trying to figure out what was in the bowl, he was like a deer caught in the headlights and could not think of how to get out of his predicament. It was truly a "gotcha", "holy *****" moment. Spin it all you like but the sight of the pineapple triggered discomfort because the pineapple has some significance to HIM.

There was no trickery. The series presented facts in an orderly, organized fashion and logically concluded with Burke being the big player.

I actually doubted that NO kidnapper EVER has written the note at the scene, and googled it. I'll be darned! NEVER!
I agree that if the child is dead and removed, a note might be left to trick the family into paying the ransom, but that if the BODY is left, the note is unlikely to help you get the money, and very likely to include things that point the finger of suspicion in your direction. In watching the CBS special, I learned that the pad was taken from the desk, the pen from a kitchen drawer, and the two were returned to their respective places after the note was written. Who does this?

Agreed about the Whites.

100% agree about Burke's reaction to the pineapple. i think he was in such a hurry to leave the crime scene that he totally forgot he had left the bowl. He was hustled out so quickly in the morning that he did not think of it again until presented with the photo. I personally thought it looked like apples in milk, but if he lived in a home where pineapple in milk was a regular snack, he should have immediately been able to identify it. I think it is clear he CHOSE not to recognize it. He seemed SO uncomfortable trying to avoid it.

 

[Lamima]

My biggest problem here is the note. Do adults tell their fourth graders how much their bonus was? Who wrote the note in writing so similar to Patsy's?

And some of the wording in the note...what teenager says 'attaché'?

 

[Karinna]

I think it was staged specifically to make it look like the work of a monster. After all, who would suspect parents of being able to do that to their own child? It was done to cast suspicion outside the home.

Further, I think whoever strangled thought she was already dead :-

[FONT="]16 LOU SMIT: Do you think that the[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 head injury occurred at the same place as the[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 other injuries, say with the literature?[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean it's just no[/FONT]
[FONT="]20 reason to -- to know that. I mean I guess --[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 well, like I say, I just -- that's very[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 difficult to think about and imagine, but I[/FONT]
[FONT="]23 wondered whether the head injury didn't kill her[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 and after that they strangled her.

(NB When Lou Smit says literature I think that is a transcription error and he said ligature)[/FONT]

If JBR was deceased before the garotte they would of known because there wouldn't have been any sign of breathing in her. I don't know if i necessarily believe it was for staging purposes, because children are murdered by perpetrators anyway without that, so i think the garotte was totally unecessary. And i think whoever did that wanted to make sure JBR was in fact dead, and they could of done that without the garotte, they could of smothered her instead. I think the garotte was just a really additional evil thing to do to her. If JBR was already dead from a head injury there was absolutely no need for the garotte and it still would of looked like murder anyway. And if she wasn't already dead after the head injury then it was the garotte that killed her.